Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Let's cool down the temperature, please.
Kingdom of God: A Quest of Holy Revolution
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Fantasy
Let's cool down the temperature, please.
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
I'm sorry, but this sounds like "I dont hate the people, I just hate your leaders". Which and I know you dont mean it that way, but as someone who has literally lived through that rhetoric his entire life, no that does not work.
If anything that's more likely to produce a rally effect.
Because the critical thing that you miss is that while the corrupt Juries are awful to others. Rich corrupt Juries like the one at Nachivan pay their boys very well and take care of them extremely well. They take care of their own, and that creates strong bonds of loyalty and brotherhood, and targetting the commanders that they like and then telling them it's for their own good will just come off as condescending and insulting to them.
A Nachivan Juror is a lord among lords, that's how they keep their grip on power. A Unified class of rich soldiers with guns.
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Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
One thing I will say is that no one in the Scourge of God has any pretensions of reaching out to the rank and file of the Jury of Nachivan. The Jury operates as a corporation which pays out significant benefits packages and salaries to its membership, and is very exclusive, with wealthy and powerful juror families passing on wealth from generation to generation. Being in it sets you for life.
They are a non-starter; Akov's first interaction with one was them almost caning him because he was insufficiently deferential. They have zero solidarity with other Juries and hold them in contempt. Their stake is in the current status quo and preserving the 'Rite of Liberty' by which they back up the Synod in running the country.
There are Jurors in Nachivan to reach out to, but the actual organization of the Jury of Nachivan, the Sword-Altar Standard, which holds its garrison at Tzinhas Barrack, is absolutely a no-go.
They are a non-starter; Akov's first interaction with one was them almost caning him because he was insufficiently deferential. They have zero solidarity with other Juries and hold them in contempt. Their stake is in the current status quo and preserving the 'Rite of Liberty' by which they back up the Synod in running the country.
There are Jurors in Nachivan to reach out to, but the actual organization of the Jury of Nachivan, the Sword-Altar Standard, which holds its garrison at Tzinhas Barrack, is absolutely a no-go.
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Anchises
Le Charismeur
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
@Cavalier
Little wild to accuse me of "saying the quiet part out loud" when I have been vocally pro-confession the whole quest. I know you don't like confession and that's fine but please don't engage in wild conspiracies. I'm on record saying what parts of true confession I want to adopt and that I also want to syncretize elements of amalism and iconoclasm. Iconoclasm's emphasis on depersonalization for example is something that might us get out of the doctrinal mess we brought upon us with our votes on the patriarch as @etranger01 pointed out on the discord.
Cool down with your "confession scare" rhetoric its a little cringe and transparent what you are actually saying.
Also Propaganda of the Deed is not what you think to seem it is. The "we absolutely need Ma'on" faction also seems to forget that, regardless of our choice, a lot of people will fight the jury. They attacked most radical sects that are noteworthy. Using city wide rioting and street fights to assassinate juror leaders and attack their weak points is a tactic I would prefer to being one of many sects and groups fighting it out on the street.
Little wild to accuse me of "saying the quiet part out loud" when I have been vocally pro-confession the whole quest. I know you don't like confession and that's fine but please don't engage in wild conspiracies. I'm on record saying what parts of true confession I want to adopt and that I also want to syncretize elements of amalism and iconoclasm. Iconoclasm's emphasis on depersonalization for example is something that might us get out of the doctrinal mess we brought upon us with our votes on the patriarch as @etranger01 pointed out on the discord.
Cool down with your "confession scare" rhetoric its a little cringe and transparent what you are actually saying.
Also Propaganda of the Deed is not what you think to seem it is. The "we absolutely need Ma'on" faction also seems to forget that, regardless of our choice, a lot of people will fight the jury. They attacked most radical sects that are noteworthy. Using city wide rioting and street fights to assassinate juror leaders and attack their weak points is a tactic I would prefer to being one of many sects and groups fighting it out on the street.
- Location
- the Republic
- Pronouns
- He/They
Hm, yeah, from what Cetash has said, we're unlikely to get any converts there. Fair enough. I still think taking out their officers will keep them on the back foot and be extremely cool and useful, and a pop-up sniper campaign is less likely to lose us more people overall.
ConfusedCanuck
Where did it all go wrong?
- Location
- Neverland
So yeah what I'm getting is we're not going to be reaching out to the Nachivan Jury and they can be considered our immediate "enemy" here.
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
@Anchises
I'm not saying we absolutely need Ma'on.
I keep saying that Makabam would actually work just as well. We'd have to move faster, but it gives us the fighters to accomplish the general objectives of the plan I articulated just as well. And this is certainly a situation where I cannot say for certain if the greater number but slower action of the Ma'on alliance or the smaller numbers but faster action of the Makabam alliance would be better. It's a gamble either way.
I prefer Ma'on because its often a good idea to have the brute force and the fat to lose in a fight like this. And I think the political gains of a United Pugilist Front would be more useful in giving us actual political power.
I'm not saying we absolutely need Ma'on.
I keep saying that Makabam would actually work just as well. We'd have to move faster, but it gives us the fighters to accomplish the general objectives of the plan I articulated just as well. And this is certainly a situation where I cannot say for certain if the greater number but slower action of the Ma'on alliance or the smaller numbers but faster action of the Makabam alliance would be better. It's a gamble either way.
I prefer Ma'on because its often a good idea to have the brute force and the fat to lose in a fight like this. And I think the political gains of a United Pugilist Front would be more useful in giving us actual political power.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Also please be charitable to one another and not attack each other as part of the basis of x or y thing. Remember this is fiction and a fictional world. Things can get heated and I accept that, but let's try to avoid it.
- Location
- Southern Virginia
If you wanted to assassinate members of the Jury then the As Hahahyiim offer actionable intelligence, which is more important for planning assassinations than safehouses and tunnels.
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
There is no mess. I keep wanting to make a post about this, but I didnt want to force Cetash's hand with my interpretation of Doctrine. But since we are here, I might as well.
The Creature, the Holy Spirit and the God can be easily resolved doctrinally via our ideas of Grand Liberation. Where the Spiral of Truth towards God, is also a Spiral towards Liberation for all things, including the Ghost.
Where the Ghost of Amagalst himself has been chained on this Earth for too long. He has worked through the Patriarchs for centuries, plowing the field like an old Moa. The chains of his responsibility and all the age he has spent laboring has made him tired and unable to work as well.
Just as a Mouflon worked to death by a Debt holder can no longer contribute to the world.
Therefore, the Sect's work will also be to Liberate Amagalst's Spirit and allow new sages and prophets to rise.
Anchises
Le Charismeur
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Safehouses and tunnels are more useful if you plan on surviving and protecting the elderly and children from revenge attacks.
bookwyrm
Doom of Public Libraries
- Location
- Wichita, Kansas
Yeah I think it's like no matter how many veterans and deserting soldiers are recruited in like an alternate history great-depression-turns-civil-war as like the Bonus Army radicalizes into the red guards or whatever, nobody but nobody is going to get like the West Point cadets and multigenerational officer's families to view those 'traitors' as anything but animals needing a good whiff of grapeshot to crawl back to their proper place. The Sword-Altar are implacable enemies to every sect that doesn't want to just keeping having serfdom and the status quo.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] With the Rage of Rehabam we destroy our foes [Fervor rises to Absolute, recruitment will continue, the sect will prioritize absolute militancy over the next few weeks as it prepares measures to defend against the Jury of Nachivan].
[X] Ma'on, the gunpowder-fists of the Western Navel [Gain a contact in the Militant Pugilist sect and its squads of street-toughs, granting strong bodies on the ground].
[X] Elder Komandir Varhan Sarbadgar, who brings with him the support of his Pale Horse Standard and some of the most extreme veterans of the War with the Mare, many of them on leave in Nachivan and spoiling for a fight.
[X] Ma'on, the gunpowder-fists of the Western Navel [Gain a contact in the Militant Pugilist sect and its squads of street-toughs, granting strong bodies on the ground].
[X] Elder Komandir Varhan Sarbadgar, who brings with him the support of his Pale Horse Standard and some of the most extreme veterans of the War with the Mare, many of them on leave in Nachivan and spoiling for a fight.
Horologer
Incertae sedis
- Location
- a risen sea
[X] As Hahahyiim, the trance-knights of Little Eykshir [Gain a contact in the Mystic Amalist sect and its web of spies and scouts, granting advance warning of Juror actions and movements].
The absolute last thing we want is to be caught flat-footed by the Jurors again, and I for one am very interested in more contact with the Amalist sects.
[X] Elder Komandir Varhan Sarbadgar, who brings with him the support of his Pale Horse Standard and some of the most extreme veterans of the War with the Mare, many of them on leave in Nachivan and spoiling for a fight.
Disaffected veterans, you say?
The absolute last thing we want is to be caught flat-footed by the Jurors again, and I for one am very interested in more contact with the Amalist sects.
[X] Elder Komandir Varhan Sarbadgar, who brings with him the support of his Pale Horse Standard and some of the most extreme veterans of the War with the Mare, many of them on leave in Nachivan and spoiling for a fight.
Disaffected veterans, you say?
[X] With the Rage of Rehabam we destroy our foes [Fervor rises to Absolute, recruitment will continue, the sect will prioritize absolute militancy over the next few weeks as it prepares measures to defend against the Jury of Nachivan].
[X] Ohr, the Militant-scholars of Wisdom's Heart [Gain a contact in the True Confessor sect and its network of city safehouses and secret tunnels, granting your sect escape and attack routes].
[X] Elder Komandir Varhan Sarbadgar, who brings with him the support of his Pale Horse Standard and some of the most extreme veterans of the War with the Mare, many of them on leave in Nachivan and spoiling for a fight.
[X] Ohr, the Militant-scholars of Wisdom's Heart [Gain a contact in the True Confessor sect and its network of city safehouses and secret tunnels, granting your sect escape and attack routes].
[X] Elder Komandir Varhan Sarbadgar, who brings with him the support of his Pale Horse Standard and some of the most extreme veterans of the War with the Mare, many of them on leave in Nachivan and spoiling for a fight.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] With the Wrath of Barabas we wipe away our enemies [Discipline rises to Absolute, recruitment will pause, the sect will prioritize absolute order over the next few weeks as it prepares measures to defend itself against the Jury of Nachivan].
[X] Ohr, the Militant-scholars of Wisdom's Heart [Gain a contact in the True Confessor sect and its network of city safehouses and secret tunnels, granting your sect escape and attack routes].
[X] Elder Komandir Varhan Sarbadgar, who brings with him the support of his Pale Horse Standard and some of the most extreme veterans of the War with the Mare, many of them on leave in Nachivan and spoiling for a fight.
[X] Ohr, the Militant-scholars of Wisdom's Heart [Gain a contact in the True Confessor sect and its network of city safehouses and secret tunnels, granting your sect escape and attack routes].
[X] Elder Komandir Varhan Sarbadgar, who brings with him the support of his Pale Horse Standard and some of the most extreme veterans of the War with the Mare, many of them on leave in Nachivan and spoiling for a fight.
Voikirium
SV's Estalia Guy
- Location
- Ruritania Illinois
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] With the Rage of Rehabam we destroy our foes [Fervor rises to Absolute, recruitment will continue, the sect will prioritize absolute militancy over the next few weeks as it prepares measures to defend against the Jury of Nachivan].
[X] Ma'on, the gunpowder-fists of the Western Navel [Gain a contact in the Militant Pugilist sect and its squads of street-toughs, granting strong bodies on the ground].
[X] Elder Komandir Varhan Sarbadgar, who brings with him the support of his Pale Horse Standard and some of the most extreme veterans of the War with the Mare, many of them on leave in Nachivan and spoiling for a fight.
Ysa stands, eyes crusted with the darkest of bags, hair a mess left to fall like a thousand fractals from his head to beneath the small of his back, clothes wrinkled.
"Dearly beloved, it is to my shame that I did not speak in our last meeting. Please, allow me to right this wrong, and speak now.
I do not believe in revenge. God Himself does not take it, indeed I believe in the Universal Salvation at the end of time; there shall be no gloating then, only revelation, only truth exposed, and all the world brought together in harmony. But I do believe, in deterrence. It may be that there is some way to teach these pigs, these hogs grunting in the pens of their own wealth, wallowing in the sin-that-is-filth, and blood, glad to eat the muck to make wealth, without at least the capcity for violence; but I do not see it, not now, not after what they have done. The straightest path is always the quickest, and the straightest path from here to a point where the Sword-Altar Standard does not attack us, is to promise that for each of us which they harm we shall harm in return.
Therefore as Rehabam let us gird ourselves for battle. Plant our fists in the gunpowder. And ride upon a pale horse, to victory!"
--
Not sure how well a Christian Universalist-ish take on eschatology works here, but I figure you miss all the shots you don't take.
[X] Ma'on, the gunpowder-fists of the Western Navel [Gain a contact in the Militant Pugilist sect and its squads of street-toughs, granting strong bodies on the ground].
[X] Elder Komandir Varhan Sarbadgar, who brings with him the support of his Pale Horse Standard and some of the most extreme veterans of the War with the Mare, many of them on leave in Nachivan and spoiling for a fight.
Ysa stands, eyes crusted with the darkest of bags, hair a mess left to fall like a thousand fractals from his head to beneath the small of his back, clothes wrinkled.
"Dearly beloved, it is to my shame that I did not speak in our last meeting. Please, allow me to right this wrong, and speak now.
I do not believe in revenge. God Himself does not take it, indeed I believe in the Universal Salvation at the end of time; there shall be no gloating then, only revelation, only truth exposed, and all the world brought together in harmony. But I do believe, in deterrence. It may be that there is some way to teach these pigs, these hogs grunting in the pens of their own wealth, wallowing in the sin-that-is-filth, and blood, glad to eat the muck to make wealth, without at least the capcity for violence; but I do not see it, not now, not after what they have done. The straightest path is always the quickest, and the straightest path from here to a point where the Sword-Altar Standard does not attack us, is to promise that for each of us which they harm we shall harm in return.
Therefore as Rehabam let us gird ourselves for battle. Plant our fists in the gunpowder. And ride upon a pale horse, to victory!"
--
Not sure how well a Christian Universalist-ish take on eschatology works here, but I figure you miss all the shots you don't take.
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- Location
- USA
dude what
there is a huge gulf between 'hey maybe this scholarly sect has perspectives we don't and that may be useful' and ''True Confession has the only right and good truth and therefore we should actually transmute into Confessors'.
like cards on the table, i think confessors are super based too, but like. this is the kind of thing this quest is about? we're gonna start stealing the intellectual and material underpinnings from every sect we encounter and they're gonna do the same thing to us. the bloc of self-described pugilist-confessors push frequently for confessor options because we think that syncretism with confession would help the pugilist movement as a whole, not because we want to discard the things that make pugilism cool
fwiw serfdom/tranquil rite is being undermined by the synod (as a side effect of, like, trying to kill the current one)
bookwyrm
Doom of Public Libraries
- Location
- Wichita, Kansas
I mean technically, but the position of the Originators is that the Great Synod would be the supreme upper legislature/judiciary of the Sanhedrin and would "review" all its decisions. The decision of that ancient Sanhedrin to establish the Tranquil Rite and Oblate serfdom is easy enough to "confirm" and then veto everything else.
- Location
- USA
pretty much, yeah. what's so blatant about the Synod's power grab was that they're literally just saying "actually all sanhedrons are heresy, except the one we like"
- Location
- Denmark
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] With the Rage of Rehabam we destroy our foes [Fervor rises to Absolute, recruitment will continue, the sect will prioritize absolute militancy over the next few weeks as it prepares measures to defend against the Jury of Nachivan].
[X] Ma'on, the gunpowder-fists of the Western Navel [Gain a contact in the Militant Pugilist sect and its squads of street-toughs, granting strong bodies on the ground].
[X] Elder Komandir Varhan Sarbadgar, who brings with him the support of his Pale Horse Standard and some of the most extreme veterans of the War with the Mare, many of them on leave in Nachivan and spoiling for a fight.
Gathered siblings in the house of God, we stand before tragedy.
Today, Tislev of 822, it is three hundred and sixty three years ago since the venerable and rightly-guided Pasan Ghadi died. Three hundred and sixty three years ago since the Grand Mouflon who made a million false servants of the Patriarchate weep. Three hundred and sixty years since Jurors, much like the detestable insects who now suck the blood from Nachivan, had to kill our Grand Mouflon by treachery. Cowed, pugilists across Vaspukaran bowed, satisfied with a Folk Rite granted to us by the Patriarchs.
Today, in the house of God, we stand before a tragedy for the Jurors of Nachivan have killed a child.
What depravity, what monstrosity does it take, I ask you, to kill a child? Ponder over the depths one must sink to, my siblings.
Five years ago, the Patriarchate stood face to face with the Grand Mare, the state which plies all the seas with their great ships of iron, and five years ago many Vasparak children were also killed. Do you think the soldier of the Mare, the gardener-corps and their janissaries, took it upon themselves to kill children? Not so! A soldier kills the enemy who is placed before him, and it was instead our proud soldiers, our heroic defenders of the flock, who took upon themselves the solemn duty of confiscating harvests, garrisoning houses and driving villages into destitution for the sake of their own salvation. I ask you, are the soldiers of the jury of Nachivan not soldiers? Then what soldier has a child as his enemy? Such depravity has not been loosened upon the world since the days of Babbarak, when man grew so wicked God had to swallow the world in the murky depths for his sin to be cleansed.
But the Jurors, our mighty heroes, did not restrict themselves to a child.
Where could be find any who thought, any who breathed, any who spoke the word of God, they descended like a horde of locusts. Defenseless women they proudly shot in the back and children not even of age to carry a weapon they kicked until the last bit of air left their weeping mouths. Siblings, sisters brothers, I ask of you: what kind of jury, and what kind of judgement, deems the murder of children, the elderly and women righteous? In the hands of the Jury of Nachivan are the ill-gotten gains of spoils taken from innumerable toilers and weapons built in the factories of the Grand Mare for shooting Vasparak soldiers and turned by the Jurors into excellent tools for shooting Vasparak, but we are many and they are few. The Jurors may have shook the door, but in response we will shake all the earth and make the very firmament shudder as the Grand Mouflon's steps once did.
In response to peace and protest, the so-called Jury of Nachivan is now bravely lowering a smoking gun. If these greatest of heroes, these world-pahlevans, respond with such fear to a raised voice, then how will they respond, siblings, brothers and sisters, to the raised fists of all Nachivan? This lowly sister Hwârvahr begs of you, let us remind the Jury of Nachivan why all foes of God once scattered when the Grand Mouflon raised the Six-Shin-Aluf.
[X] Ma'on, the gunpowder-fists of the Western Navel [Gain a contact in the Militant Pugilist sect and its squads of street-toughs, granting strong bodies on the ground].
[X] Elder Komandir Varhan Sarbadgar, who brings with him the support of his Pale Horse Standard and some of the most extreme veterans of the War with the Mare, many of them on leave in Nachivan and spoiling for a fight.
Gathered siblings in the house of God, we stand before tragedy.
Today, Tislev of 822, it is three hundred and sixty three years ago since the venerable and rightly-guided Pasan Ghadi died. Three hundred and sixty three years ago since the Grand Mouflon who made a million false servants of the Patriarchate weep. Three hundred and sixty years since Jurors, much like the detestable insects who now suck the blood from Nachivan, had to kill our Grand Mouflon by treachery. Cowed, pugilists across Vaspukaran bowed, satisfied with a Folk Rite granted to us by the Patriarchs.
Today, in the house of God, we stand before a tragedy for the Jurors of Nachivan have killed a child.
What depravity, what monstrosity does it take, I ask you, to kill a child? Ponder over the depths one must sink to, my siblings.
Five years ago, the Patriarchate stood face to face with the Grand Mare, the state which plies all the seas with their great ships of iron, and five years ago many Vasparak children were also killed. Do you think the soldier of the Mare, the gardener-corps and their janissaries, took it upon themselves to kill children? Not so! A soldier kills the enemy who is placed before him, and it was instead our proud soldiers, our heroic defenders of the flock, who took upon themselves the solemn duty of confiscating harvests, garrisoning houses and driving villages into destitution for the sake of their own salvation. I ask you, are the soldiers of the jury of Nachivan not soldiers? Then what soldier has a child as his enemy? Such depravity has not been loosened upon the world since the days of Babbarak, when man grew so wicked God had to swallow the world in the murky depths for his sin to be cleansed.
But the Jurors, our mighty heroes, did not restrict themselves to a child.
Where could be find any who thought, any who breathed, any who spoke the word of God, they descended like a horde of locusts. Defenseless women they proudly shot in the back and children not even of age to carry a weapon they kicked until the last bit of air left their weeping mouths. Siblings, sisters brothers, I ask of you: what kind of jury, and what kind of judgement, deems the murder of children, the elderly and women righteous? In the hands of the Jury of Nachivan are the ill-gotten gains of spoils taken from innumerable toilers and weapons built in the factories of the Grand Mare for shooting Vasparak soldiers and turned by the Jurors into excellent tools for shooting Vasparak, but we are many and they are few. The Jurors may have shook the door, but in response we will shake all the earth and make the very firmament shudder as the Grand Mouflon's steps once did.
In response to peace and protest, the so-called Jury of Nachivan is now bravely lowering a smoking gun. If these greatest of heroes, these world-pahlevans, respond with such fear to a raised voice, then how will they respond, siblings, brothers and sisters, to the raised fists of all Nachivan? This lowly sister Hwârvahr begs of you, let us remind the Jury of Nachivan why all foes of God once scattered when the Grand Mouflon raised the Six-Shin-Aluf.
- Location
- Hell
[X] With the Rage of Rehabam we destroy our foes [Fervor rises to Absolute, recruitment will continue, the sect will prioritize absolute militancy over the next few weeks as it prepares measures to defend against the Jury of Nachivan].
[X] Ma'on, the gunpowder-fists of the Western Navel [Gain a contact in the Militant Pugilist sect and its squads of street-toughs, granting strong bodies on the ground].
[X] Elder Komandir Varhan Sarbadgar, who brings with him the support of his Pale Horse Standard and some of the most extreme veterans of the War with the Mare, many of them on leave in Nachivan and spoiling for a fight.
Fine, I will switch, but I really would like some tips on Urban Warfare >.>
[X] Ma'on, the gunpowder-fists of the Western Navel [Gain a contact in the Militant Pugilist sect and its squads of street-toughs, granting strong bodies on the ground].
[X] Elder Komandir Varhan Sarbadgar, who brings with him the support of his Pale Horse Standard and some of the most extreme veterans of the War with the Mare, many of them on leave in Nachivan and spoiling for a fight.
Fine, I will switch, but I really would like some tips on Urban Warfare >.>
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
You can vote for more than one option at the same time. Pretty sure we have approval voting turned on.
- Location
- PA
[X] With the Rage of Rehabam we destroy our foes [Fervor rises to Absolute, recruitment will continue, the sect will prioritize absolute militancy over the next few weeks as it prepares measures to defend against the Jury of Nachivan].
[X] Makabam, the Idol-Smashers of Old Nach [Gain a contact in the Political Iconoclast sect and its experienced streetfighters, who give your sect special advice in urban warfare].
[X] As Hahahyiim, the trance-knights of Little Eykshir [Gain a contact in the Mystic Amalist sect and its web of spies and scouts, granting advance warning of Juror actions and movements].
[X] Elder Abbess-Superior Tessel Tori, who brings with her echelons of the Order Marina within Nachivan and beyond, and connections across the most reformist and heterodox of the country's holy orders.
There. No more attempts to switch stances or ideals, if I can't stick with this I should be known as a man with legs of jelly and a spine as solid as quicksand!
[X] Makabam, the Idol-Smashers of Old Nach [Gain a contact in the Political Iconoclast sect and its experienced streetfighters, who give your sect special advice in urban warfare].
[X] As Hahahyiim, the trance-knights of Little Eykshir [Gain a contact in the Mystic Amalist sect and its web of spies and scouts, granting advance warning of Juror actions and movements].
[X] Elder Abbess-Superior Tessel Tori, who brings with her echelons of the Order Marina within Nachivan and beyond, and connections across the most reformist and heterodox of the country's holy orders.
There. No more attempts to switch stances or ideals, if I can't stick with this I should be known as a man with legs of jelly and a spine as solid as quicksand!