Kingdom of God: A Quest of Holy Revolution

We must introduce free silver into our economy to spread the wealth of God's creation among all classes and end the farce of God-Backed scrip. The souls of the faithful must not be chained to a golden calf and I will not consider this revolution finished until we have broken the fetters of gold imposed upon the Kingdom of God On Earth, or my name isn't Bryanaki Gidon!
 
[X] That the Flood was treachery by evil to sabotage the justice of God [Pugilist Opinion & Confessor Opinion].
[x] Amalgast is the greatest step yet taken, but he is not so special and essential that he should be totally above all others [Radical opinion].
[X] Yatoni was the betrayed, and the Ravs are in the right [Orthodox, Pugilist & Confessor opinion].
[x] High Confession was a nightmare that would have smothered the people and the world [Orthodox & Amalist Opinion].
[x] He is a misguided creature of his chamber, trapped within his cloister [Radical Opinion].
[x] The Sanhedron, if used correctly, can lead to the freedom of the people [Popular & Radical Opinion].

Do people think this combination works for keeping us from being seen as so ultra-radical the general population gets alienated, while still attracting a good base? And Pugilist opinion options because that's where our sect originated from and we set up in the Pugilist district.
 
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[X] That the Flood was treachery by evil to sabotage the justice of God [Pugilist Opinion & Confessor Opinion].
[x] Amalgast is the greatest step yet taken, but he is not so special and essential that he should be totally above all others [Radical opinion].
[X] Yatoni was the betrayed, and the Ravs are in the right [Orthodox, Pugilist & Confessor opinion].
[x] High Confession was a nightmare that would have smothered the people and the world [Orthodox & Amalist Opinion].
[x] He is a misguided creature of his chamber, trapped within his cloister [Radical Opinion].
[x] The Sanhedron, if used correctly, can lead to the freedom of the people [Popular & Radical Opinion].

Do people think this combination works for keeping us from being seen as so ultra-radical the general population gets alienated, while still attracting a good base? And Pugilist opinion options because that's where our sect originated from and we set up in the Pugilist district.
Hyperpugilism thanks you for your support
 
That's enough, that's-that's quite enough, dear friends! I know I asked you to hold me back, I-yes, thank you-but I swear that I will not dishonor myself or this sacred place. I would like to speak on the topic of High Confession.

I place myself fully in support of it! I know this may seem like a surprise, considering how I have railed against Confessors in the past, but I have never seen any problem with the plans of the 32nd Patriarch. After all, don't we all wish to reach heaven? Let us do so! Let us clasp the minds of the people in chains of dogma and call it "unity"! God may have punished us once, but surely he would be merciful if we attempted to shape the House of God into a second Spire!

You might think my sarcasm excessive. If so, you are wrong. God sent the Infalliable Patriarchs and then cast them down. Surely, if he had not, we would have succumbed to that doctrine and destroyed ourselves anew. It is no wonder that said doctrine appeals to Patriarchs - they are wise men, carrying within them the loving soul of Amalgast, and they wish to teach the world.

But no man can teach the world. Not even Amalgast, though his glory surpasses that of all who have lived! It is tempting to look upon the vast stupidity of this world and think you know better, but you do not. None of us has mastered his (or her!) own doctrine - who could prescribe one for all creation? Who would you put forward - you ultraradicals who disdain the very names of Patriarchs - for your "theologian-king"? Who would you enthrone as your new god? What dust and ash would be your 'teacher'?

God created us as individuals. He did not err. We all walk towards one Truth, a communion of souls, but the way is strait. None may follow - you must walk alone. Pray their paths are shorter and they await you at the destination. Every moment finds me wishing to shed the heaviness of my own soul, wishing to do it now. But doubt, difference, debate - they are aspects of the Lord's plan. I would never surrender them to some author of dogma. Conformity is a greater evil than individuality.

It is said that two powerful priests visited Pasan Ghadi and Myriam in their war camp. They could not agree on the meaning of some of Amalgast's sayings. Surely this new prophet could resolve their disputes? What did Amalgast mean when he wrote those words? It was a trick, of course. These lawyerly men lacked weapons, so they armed themselves with words. No answer the Pasan Ghadi could give would prove satisfying.

Except, of course, the one that he gave! He smiled broadly and he laughed and he said that he did not know. "I do not know." Can you believe it? "I do not know." A prophet, and he does not know!

"No, I do not know! A million true meanings could lurk behind his words, and surely he picked the best of all - but the best intent of Almagast is not the best intent of Lewi and Eitan. Nor is it the best intent of myself, or Myriam here. The words are truth, not your truth or my truth but the universal Truth of Heaven. But meaning lives in the bosom of mankind. No more of this chest-beating - love the true opinions of all men, and seek your own."

(OOC: in the style of the greatest theologians, this story is either half-remembered apocrypha or made up on the spot. similarly, Zeb's rhetorical flourishes have fully swept him away and he has forgotten to seriously engage with High Confession. what a king.)
 
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Yeah, that makes sense. We arent even plugged into the Sanhedron yet. We simply do not have enough information to judge who are the ones tha are just pretending, who are the open enemies, and who could be potential allies or leads to allies.

Its too early to throw the towel. At this point all that would earn us is a quick smashing and being taken out of the game while other Sects survive.
We are a teensy tinesy, poor as heck sect that will 500% have to make a lot of alliances and deals with other splinter sects and beliefs so people better get used to the idea of compromise in the face of national armageddon (and juror bayonets)
 
Watch as moderating convictions away in the name of nebulous "appeal" backfires.
There is strength in taking extreme stances, and weakness in dissolving into yet another but-not-too-radical sect.
When reality inevitably reveals the substanceless appeasment as what it is, these who predicted it will benefit. These who conformed will suffer.
 
Watch as moderating convictions away in the name of nebulous "appeal" backfires.
There is strength in taking extreme stances, and weakness in dissolving into yet another but-not-too-radical sect.
When reality inevitably reveals the substanceless appeasment as what it is, these who predicted it will benefit. These who conformed will suffer.
Its honestly an easy question for me. I don't think people are merely voting in a tactical way. People feel like ultraradicalism is what our sect should actually strive for and that's okay? Like the Kingdom of God is clearly rotten and our sect experienced it firsthand. Deciding that this is all kind of pointless and we need a true fresh start is like understandable? Fight for what you actually believe?

And even in universe it should be obvious how truly rotten the system is. Everyone hoped the Sanhedron would lead to some spiritual reawakening and instead the economy machine is broken.
 
The Winning Votes still has us being pretty radical and extremely populist reformers. The argument that we've somehow moderated ourselves into limpdicked performative fake moderates doesnt apply to the actual results.

Like we still want the abolition of the debt and the tithe. We still think the literal Founding Prophet of our religion and society is just one of many instead of The Prophet. We think that the Flood which in popular consensus wiped away the evilest city in history was in fact a trickery by the devil which has fooled the entirety of our civilization for centuries. We think that the powerful and rich Juries, aka the people with the money and guns, need to be cast down for reforms to happen.

What part of any of that is walking away from our cause because we moderated our beliefs away? Its all rather radical.

Because like in character there really isnt any reason to think that the Patriarch is a failure we absolutely cannot trust. The man literally just threw down the gauntlet at all the Juror Banks, telling them to kneel or he fucking abolishes every debt.

Per his current actions, he's someone that in universe the sect would support, even if begrudgingly. He might fail in the future, but no one has future sight. So there's no reason to think the worst of him right now.

Literally all the "You guys are appeasing our foes" stuff is based on the fact that we, as a tiny sect with little money and no influence, didnt immediately jump to "Guillotine the head of state, he's a fake and a traitor." as a stance. For the crime of; trying to improve his state and implement reforms by engaging in a political struggle against the overmighty Juror Banks sucking away all the wealth out of the bones of the people.
 
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First off, what an amazing update.

Secondly,

Pasan Ghadi inflamed the central circles, using war wagons

Am I jumping the gun or is this a historical allusion to Jan Žižka's armored wagons from the Hussite Wars? If so, super cool, I think that dude and his wagons were super neat.

(I'll vote later I gotta chew on this update properly.)
 
[X] That the Flood was treachery by evil to sabotage the justice of God [Pugilist Opinion & Confessor Opinion].

"A rifle is God's own weapon. It will, with the proper form, hit a target dead in an instant and nothing around it will be phased but for the thunder of its report. An oil bomb is not God's own weapon, it burns all around its target, creating a great chaos and disorder."
Sister Ryvka waits for a moment for the clamour to die down again, and then, "Not that an actual oil bomb may not be used to great effect in God's name. This, you must understand, what a strictly metaphorical comparison."

[X] Amalgast is the greatest step yet taken, but he is not so special and essential that he should be totally above all others [Radical opinion].

Sarkan was a labourer in Yomri and was brought in to the sect by his Dear Friend and Companion Aster, who is smaller and bearded and sits beside him as the bigger man stands up, "Everyone here is supposed to be equal right? And everyone has, I forget the word the Sister used, a bit of God inside them, yeah? Well, I don't really think Amalgast should get a bigger piece of God than the rest of us. I think that sounds greedy."
He sits down at the behest of his Dear Friend and Companion, and the outrage and hissing.

[X] Obrogras was the betrayed, and the Amalists are in the right [Amalist Opinion].

"Brother Sarkan's point is well taken, if put in poor rhetoric. Amalgast was chosen from among the lowest and endowed, solely and individually, with the Grace to wrench the world asunder and reorient it to the truth." Sister Ryvka's voice is not strong, but carries a surety to it that conveys that she is the one talking now, "His children, then, must be of the same base matter as all of us among the lowly. He was a brief, shining flare of the Power of God that returns, as with all things, to ash when it is done."

[X] High Confession was a nightmare that would have smothered the people and the world [Orthodox & Amalist Opinion].

Sarkan finds the courage to stand and try his luck again. "Confessors," he offers to the judging eyes of the congregation, "Should be punched."
There is a chorus of muttered agreements and nods of ascent as a proud Sarkan sits back down to a pat and squeeze from Aster.

[X] He is a misguided creature of his chamber, trapped within his cloister [Radical Opinion].

"The man thinks himself above us, but he has reddened the faces of our enemies and for that deserves credit," Ryvka says, "He will not bleed them dry, and he will not join us on the battlements, but he has earned the smallest amount of benefit."
 
Vote will be open for a while so take your time, everyone. Also, looks to me like the most contentious votes are High Confession, the Sanhedron and the Patriarch right now.

First off, what an amazing update.



Secondly,







Am I jumping the gun or is this a historical allusion to Jan Žižka's armored wagons from the Hussite Wars? If so, super cool, I think that dude and his wagons were super neat.



(I'll vote later I gotta chew on this update properly.)

Yup, it is a reference. There are a few of these in the update players might notice or have already.
 
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I do like how these work. We can basically say that the sect has a consensus on this, this, and this issue, while there's room for debate over this and this.
 
I have seen votes in Magna Graecia where player discussion has flipped a vote option from 3 votes to 30 in support. Never doubt the power of discourse! It is a lot so players may be open to changing their votes in light of new information.
 
[X] That the Flood was treachery by evil to sabotage the justice of God [Pugilist Opinion & Confessor Opinion].
[X] Amalgast is the greatest step yet taken, but he is not so special and essential that he should be totally above all others [Radical opinion].
[X] Yatoni was the betrayed, and the Ravs are in the right [Orthodox, Pugilist & Confessor opinion].
[X] High Confession was a dream cut short that we can hope to realize in some form, again [Confessor Opinion].
[X] He is a false shepherd who must not be trusted to lead the people to freedom [Ultraradical Opinion].
[X] The Sanhedron is too easily manipulated and too unsatisfying a tool for liberation [Ultraradical Opinion].
 
[X] That the Flood was treachery by evil to sabotage the justice of God [Pugilist Opinion & Confessor Opinion].
[x] Amalgast is the greatest step yet taken, but he is not so special and essential that he should be totally above all others [Radical opinion].
[X] Yatoni was the betrayed, and the Ravs are in the right [Orthodox, Pugilist & Confessor opinion].
[x] High Confession was a nightmare that would have smothered the people and the world [Orthodox & Amalist Opinion].
[x] He is a misguided creature of his chamber, trapped within his cloister [Radical Opinion].
[x] The Sanhedron, if used correctly, can lead to the freedom of the people [Popular & Radical Opinion].
 
Based on the current tally, the one thing I disagree with is the popularity of the Confessor world dictatorship. Brethren and sistren, are we really here to impose enlightenment on all by force? To repeat the very same mistakes that had God turn from humankind to begin with? Are all the rest of God's creations not worthy of their own enlightenment on their own terms? I can't support anything like the holy dictatorship of the Infallible Patriarchs no matter how well-intentioned.

((Also I voted for Confession in the initial post but y'all wanted to be Pugilists, so let's be Pugilists.))
 
Ultimately I present syncretic options with the expectation it will open syncretic possibilities. All of the schisms have drawn from the others - iconoclasm takes its criticisms of hierarchy from the levelling ethos of Pugilism and elaborates them, confession takes a dualist view of the world and Amalism and Pugilism share agreement on the communitarian ethos. These are not totally neat boxes with no interaction.

But that doesn't mean you have to do that. Pursuing a more intellectually focused and elaborated pugilism is absolutely fine too.
 
Confessionalism would make Witches of the World. It would subjugate and oppress mankind to build their new Spire with their new slavery. To be fundamentally expected of an idealist schism initiated not from the bottom and the material reality of the people but from above as dictat of the centralizing and power hungry "Infallible Patriarchs".
 
Confessionalism would make Witches of the World. It would subjugate and oppress mankind to build their new Spire with their new slavery. To be fundamentally expected of an idealist schism initiated not from the bottom and the material reality of the people but from above as dictat of the centralizing and power hungry "Infallible Patriarchs".
Its interesting how you decry ideologies that have a coherent vision as "idealism". Confessionalism is in fact absolutely concerned with material reality and how to break its shackles.

You cling to having a patriarch and yet you write this. It is not ultraradical confessionalism that seeks to keep the shackles in place. Pretending that the current patriarch is merely a bad apple is cowardice. We have seen the historical parade of diastrous patriarchs, we can't rely on god to give us a good patriarch every time. Progress to reaching true paradise on earth requires us to build a truly visionary system that isn't reliant on the character of one man. Truly reaching paradise is only going to work if we unleash the power of all of god's children and use it for true communal governance of the holy community.

Abandoning the creation of a new spire is surrender to eternal mediocrity. Pugilist-confession seeks to reach the righteous goal that high confession pursued without replicating its flawed methods and thus encapsulates perfectly what seeking the path to heaven is all about.
 
I would interject that the Pugilist-Confessor consensus on the Flood & the Yatoni-Obrogas schism means it would synergize well with furthering that inter-theology affinity through wanting to realize High Confession (Note: What High Confession means to us Militant Pugilists & True Confessors=/=what it means to the High Confessor Infallible Patriarchs)

However, I would also like to point out that the Pugilist viewpoint of the Yatoni-Obrogas schism also means it aligns better with the Radical position on the current Patriarch (disliking him, but also begrudging approval to his current move). Moreover, I would like to note that both the Radical & Ultraradical positions are focused on the current Patriarch, & neither decides what HaKhofshim thought about the institution in general. Although considering the Pugilist position on the Yatoni-Obrogas schism (should it win), it would also make sense for us Militant Pugilist to retain an altered version of Amalgast's living vessel (Note: Does not need to have a single being representing Amalgast...and the Sanhendron or an alternative assembly are groups of living beings :evil:)
 
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"Pugilist-Confession?" Bah! Confession is nothing but the corruption of a good doctrine! If you mix water and piss, you haven't invented a new drink - you've just made more piss!
 
Also, ironically for the people voting the Amalists' Pro-Obrogas opinion & also voting the Radical or Popular position on the Patriarch, it does look like the Amalists' Pro-Obrogas opinion works the best with the Ultraradical stance on the Patriarch because said opinion already rejects the very premise of the Patriarchate.

Edit: The Iconoclasts are utter chads for going "you're both wrong, fools" on the schism btw :V
 
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[X] That the Flood was treachery by evil to sabotage the justice of God [Pugilist Opinion & Confessor Opinion].
[X] Amalgast is the greatest step yet taken, but he is not so special and essential that he should be totally above all others [Radical opinion].
[X] Yatoni was the betrayed, and the Ravs are in the right [Orthodox, Pugilist & Confessor opinion].
[X] High Confession was a nightmare that would have smothered the people and the world [Orthodox & Amalist Opinion].
[X] He is a misguided creature of his chamber, trapped within his cloister [Radical Opinion].
[X] The Sanhedron, if used correctly, can lead to the freedom of the people [Popular & Radical Opinion].
 
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