Hogwarts Sect of Witchcraft and Wizardry

FriedIce said:

There's also Option 4 - we spend eight sect points this turn. On one hand, we'll lose the House Cup, but on the other we'll get to discover what 8 Sect Points will get us!

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I've been coming back to this idea, and not only do I think it has merits as stated, but I think it was selling itself short, too. I believe that if we spend enough points to get such a great Boon that basically guarantees us June's top scorer position in 2 subjects and top scorer overall, we'd get the benefits of those points and we'd secure the House Cup.

-We're at 34 points with 8 unspent (42 total in the tally).
-There are seven subjects, so seven top scorer positions for 7 sect points.
-There is one top scorer position for 2 sect points.
-So 7+2 total points available.

If we win 3 (1 from a subject and 2 from overall) out of the 9 total points, at the very minimum, we'd be at 37+3. Slytherin would have to win 2 out of the 6 available points remaining to tie us at 40 and 3 out of 6 to surpass us, and that's assuming no other Ravenclaw would get points.

If we win 4 (2 from two subjects and 2 from overall) out of the total 9 points, at the very minimum, we'd be at 38+4. Slytherin would have to win 4 out of the 5 available points remaining to tie us at 42 and 5 out of 5 to surpass us.

That definitely sounds unlikely as hell, so the question is: how likely are we to get 4 points (top scorer in two subjects and overall) by spending the 8 points we have? Well, we've been told by the QM that he aimed for an improvement of about 60 points per action for 3-point boons. A reasonable progression, then, would be 100 for 4-point boons, 150 for 5, 210 for 6, 280 for 7 and 360 for 8. But even if this is not the case, if this is outdated, if things have changed, etc., we can expect the benefits of such a large expenditure of sect points to be in the high hundreds. Definitely enough to net us those 4 points we need, no?

What kind of plan would go well with this? Well, not the Breakthrough one, but the Astronomy/Charms one, absolutely. Given the projected avalanche of points incoming with the turn, we could even go Astronomy/Herbology, picking both our skills currently at 0 with the confidence of getting them to Apprentice, and leaving Charms that's already at 400 for a non-boosted turn. Something like this:

[][Plan] All the Points
-[][Training] Astronomy x3
-[][Training] Herbology x2
-[][Points] 8

What do you guys think?

Don't boons apply during the following month? while I think it might be a decent option (an 8 point boon could give us a lot) I'm somewhat dubious that the boon would actually apply in a way that helps us earn points next month, and thereby help with earning the house cup.

zinay said:

Don't boons apply during the following month? while I think it might be a decent option (an 8 point boon could give us a lot) I'm somewhat dubious that the boon would actually apply in a way that helps us earn points next month, and thereby help with earning the house cup.

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It usually applies to the month after, but not always. We could tell the QM that we'd like a boon that applies to the current month, and since he's told us in the past that he takes the thread into consideration when coming up with boons (and since it's happened in the past, so it's at least possible), he might grant it to us. Perhaps more importantly, this can be addressed in story as well: Rei could go to an Elder and ask specifically for something immediately helpful in exchange for her points. That doesn't seem so far-fetched, especially considering it's the last month of school. And with this final point I mean that it can both be used as a justification for it to apply immediately (it's something tied to Hogwarts so it must come in action before we go home for the summer) and as a justification for Rei's requesting it (the exam is coming so we need it quick).

Edit - I don't know if @Karf can speak on this (feel free to ignore me, if not).

Epic Bygones said:

It usually applies to the month after, but not always. We could tell the QM that we'd like a boon that applies to the current month, and since he's told us in the past that he takes the thread into consideration when coming up with boons, he might grant it to us. Perhaps more importantly, this can be addressed in story as well: Rei could go to an Elder and ask specifically for something immediately helpful in exchange for her points. That doesn't seem so far-fetched.

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Perhaps, but to my recollection literally every boon so far has only taken effect the turn after, even when it was some sort of instantaneous effect rather than a modification on our training.

Epic Bygones said:

What do you guys think?

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That plan assumes the benefit from the points will apply in that same turn, rather than the next month.

Honestly it just feels like too much of a risk, when not the current plans on offer are safer. Plus it means @Karf doesn't have to figure out a way to balance an 8 point boon, when previous ones have been 1-3 points.

For the electives, assuming you're right and winning the House Cup means we can train electives but only in the summer months (@Karf any confirmation on that? Would we have to train them in July or August?), then I would very much rather not spread our attention between all of them. They're third year modules, being able to do them now is nice, but very much comes secondary to ensuring we get the basics down right.
My priority would be Divination, for the social bonus and so we can chat to Lavender about it, and CoMC for the boost to two of our core skills/the potential to help us get a familiar early.

[X][Plan] Finishing up (no points)
-[X][Training] Astronomy x3
-[X][Training] Charms x2
--[X] The Rainbow Brush
[X][Quidditch] The Shield
I would prefer this, as it give us better odds on winning a sect point (and thus the House Cup). I'd probably prefer switching the ratio more heavily in Astronomy's favour, but at this late point I'd rather not split the vote. I definitely would rather have Apprentice Astronomy or close to it going into September, for which we kinda need to train Astronomy this month, so we can go full Spiritual/History in our first month back.

[X][SVP] Horizon Slicing Technique
I'd rather go for precision and distance over sheer cutting ability. I do want to get some heat into our Light Transfiguration at some point, but the best time for that was Promethean technique, and the second best time is likely to be getting our skill high enough that we can 'break the bounds of the skill', as it were, and develop it into something new.

[X][Social] Contrary to the rumors, Harry Potter is nothing more than a polite twelve year old boy. You sincerely doubt that he's taken Gryffindor's loss of the quidditch cup to heart, but you'd still best make sure that that is the case.
[X][Social] The Ravenclaw first year study club is becoming more active as the year draws to a close. Although you might not say so out loud, you know you're quite highly advanced in your chosen fields, and helping your peers cram in some last minute study seems like the right thing to do.
[X][Social] Rather than facing exams at the end of the schoolyear, the fourth year disciples compete against each other in a year-long tourney. The finals are a public spectacle, and you have no intention of missing out on the show.

As a reminder, those voting for the doodle social vote need to vote for someone to use as a model.
I'd like to watch the tournament, but if we come back next year we'll have another chance so I won't be torn up not seeing this one.

For the summer the worst case scenario gives us only 2 social actions (1 each month), which I figure would be spent on our Dad and exploring Diagon Alley (and learning how to access our vault)? Anything else like contacting friends is more of a stretch goal.

zinay said:

Perhaps, but to my recollection literally every boon so far has only taken effect the turn after, even when it was some sort of instantaneous effect rather than a modification on our training.

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Karnax626 said:

That plan assumes the benefit from the points will apply in that same turn, rather than the next month.

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Like I said in an earlier post, we can ask, both as players in the thread and as character in the story. But at the very least, there's precedent of it happening many times:

Karf said:

-[][Boon] A pair of Qi recording goggles
Wearing these during the game, you'll get a recording of the way Qi flows to analyze later, letting you gain a deeper understanding of the intricacies.For every 20 HP Hufflepuff loses in the match, gain 1 point of Spiritual Cultivation progress.
-[][Boon] A roll of finely runed bandages
Wrapping these around your arms, legs and body will create an imprint of you, which will play back your moves made during the game, letting you look at your motions from an outsider's perspective.Every time Ravenclaw has three or more successes over Hufflepuff, a third of the damage roll is added to your Spiritual Cultivation progress.

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Karf said:

-[][Boon] An especially shiny Galleon
After a quick trip to the library and consulting with your friends, you learn that you've been given a cracked spirit stone, which will let the speck of sentient Qi out soon, but until then you can study the little spirit.Immediately gain 2d100 progress for Care of Magical Creatures

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Karf said:

-[][Boon] A plate of bright orange sushi rolls.
Despite being delivered by an owl, each roll is perfectly spaced, and the swirls of meat and rice are somehow encouraging strange flows of Qi.Immediately gain 2d100 progress in Care of Magical Creatures, plus the option to use training actions in it for the next turn

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The benefit from the galleon came into effect as part of the next turn's training action.

[X][SVP] Horizon Slicing Technique
Too many good options

[X][Quidditch] The Beacon
Comms and Quiet Flashbangs FTW

[X][Plan] Plan The Most Electives
-[X][Training] Breakthrough attempt x5
To the other side, gotta break the plane before you celebrate otherwise you could fumble it.

[X][Social] Contrary to the rumors, Harry Potter is nothing more than a polite twelve year old boy. You sincerely doubt that he's taken Gryffindor's loss of the quidditch cup to heart, but you'd still best make sure that that is the case.
[X][Social] The Ravenclaw first year study club is becoming more active as the year draws to a close. Although you might not say so out loud, you know you're quite highly advanced in your chosen fields, and helping your peers cram in some last minute study seems like the right thing to do.
[X][Social] Rather than facing exams at the end of the schoolyear, the fourth year disciples compete against each other in a year-long tourney. The finals are a public spectacle, and you have no intention of missing out on the show.

Epic Bygones said:

It's not explicitly stated, but I interpreted what @Karf wrote in the Mechanics tag, as well as what Roscrow said in the story itself, to mean that this opportunity to study the electives before third year only applies for the summer. I could be wrong, though, so I tagged the QM for a clarification.

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This is correct. Once the schoolyear starts up again in September, you'll lose access to the electives for another year.

Epic Bygones said:

Well, we've been told by the QM that he aimed for an improvement of about 60 points per action for 3-point boons. A reasonable progression, then, would be 100 for 4-point boons, 150 for 5, 210 for 6, 280 for 7 and 360 for 8.

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The first sentence is correct, but the math doesn't follow for me. At ~20 to 1 ratio, 8 would be 160. Their exponential nature comes from the fact that you have more actions, and progress early is better than progress later.

zinay said:

Don't boons apply during the following month?

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Usually, but not always. I do try to tailor them, but I'll also purposely make what I preceive as the most wanted option the weakest one. Not entirely out of meanness, but to make the other choices competitive.

Epic Bygones said:

It usually applies to the month after, but not always.

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See above and below.

Karnax626 said:

Honestly it just feels like too much of a risk, when not the current plans on offer are safer. Plus it means @Karf doesn't have to figure out a way to balance an 8 point boon, when previous ones have been 1-3 points.

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If that's what the people want, I'll do it, but I fear it might be underwhelming. To the players, going from 3 to 8 feels like it should be explosively better, while I'd be looking for ways to lessen its impact. Part of the system is that the house cup needs to be valuable, or the points would always get dumped at the end of the year. However, if the reward you get for doing so regardless is unequivocally better, then the balancing act is ruined.

The core principle is a balancing act between using as many points as you can get away with, while still winning, and I think I enjoy that part.

Karnax626 said:

For the electives, assuming you're right and winning the House Cup means we can train electives but only in the summer months (@Karf any confirmation on that? Would we have to train them in July or August?)

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As above, July and August only.

I feel like the house cup should be uneqivocally better. We don't just have to get sect points for a few months and win some quidditch to get it, but enough of them that we are far enough ahead to win, and we still spend the sect points on it. Not too much better, but still better.

zinay said:

The benefit from the galleon came into effect as part of the next turn's training action.

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True. I read "immediately gain" and didn't investigate further.

Thanks for the answer, @Karf !

Karf said:

The first sentence is correct, but the math doesn't follow for me. At ~20 to 1 ratio, 8 would be 160. Their exponential nature comes from the fact that you have more actions, and progress early is better than progress later.

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That's still somewhere in the high hundreds range, as progress, even after further weakening for competitiveness' sake. Even if it's reduced to 500 points from the boon alone, that's enough for the plan to work safely, I feel.

So... yeah, guys, let's do it!

Either spend all 8 for this scenario:

Epic Bygones said:

If we win 4 (2 from two subjects and 2 from overall) out of the total 9 points, at the very minimum, we'd be at 38+4. Slytherin would have to win 4 out of the 5 available points remaining to tie us at 42 and 5 out of 5 to surpass us.

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Or spend 5 for this:
If we win 3 (1 from a subject and 2 from overall) out of the total 9 points, at the very minimum, we'd be at 37+6. Slytherin would have to win 5 out of the 6 available points remaining just to tie us at 43 and 6 out of 6 to surpass us.

How about it?

[X][Plan] 5 Points
-[X][Training] Astronomy x3
-[X][Training] Charms x2
--[X] The Rainbow Brush
-[X][Points] 5

[X][Plan] 8 Points
-[X][Training] Astronomy x3
-[X][Training] Charms x2
--[X] The Rainbow Brush
-[X][Points] 8

I changed my mind and went back to Charms because it would be more useful for the next set of rolls, especially electives (Herbology's impact on CoMC notwithstanding).

Beyond the math I already mentioned, 8 Points is more progress and less waste of sect points, but maybe harder to aim for, if we want to win two subjects top scorer positions. 5 Points is less progress and more waste of sect points, but super easy (basically guaranteed) to happen.

Edit - To not mess up my other votes.

[X][SVP] Searing Blade Technique
-Cutting through harder material is a more significant improvement than dicing (just use the technique again) or more range (just get closer), I feel.

[X][Quidditch] The Omen
-Screw Harry! We are the Chosen One!

[X][Social] The Ravenclaw first year study club is becoming more active as the year draws to a close. Although you might not say so out loud, you know you're quite highly advanced in your chosen fields, and helping your peers cram in some last minute study seems like the right thing to do.
[X][Social] Rather than facing exams at the end of the schoolyear, the fourth year disciples compete against each other in a year-long tourney. The finals are a public spectacle, and you have no intention of missing out on the show.
[X][Social] Contrary to the rumors, Harry Potter is nothing more than a polite twelve year old boy. You sincerely doubt that he's taken Gryffindor's loss of the quidditch cup to heart, but you'd still best make sure that that is the case.
[X][Social] Sue and Mandy both seem to be the outdoors types, and your visit to the Forbidden Forest wasn't all that bad. Try to get your friends to be each other's friends and take a trek through the woods together.

Sounds good to me.

[X][Plan] Finishing up (no points)

[X][Plan] 5 Points
-[X][Training] Astronomy x3
-[X][Training] Charms x2
--[X] The Rainbow Brush
-[X][Points] 5

[X][Plan] 8 Points
-[X][Training] Astronomy x3
-[X][Training] Charms x2
--[X] The Rainbow Brush
-[X][Points] 8

[X][Plan] Plan The Most Electives
-[X][Training] Breakthrough attempt x5

[X][Plan] Plan The Most Electives
-[X][Training] Breakthrough attempt x5

[X][Quidditch] The Omen

[X][SVP] Horizon Slicing Technique

[X][Social] Rather than facing exams at the end of the schoolyear, the fourth year disciples compete against each other in a year-long tourney. The finals are a public spectacle, and you have no intention of missing out on the show.
[X][Social] Contrary to the rumors, Harry Potter is nothing more than a polite twelve year old boy. You sincerely doubt that he's taken Gryffindor's loss of the quidditch cup to heart, but you'd still best make sure that that is the case.
[X][Social] The Ravenclaw first year study club is becoming more active as the year draws to a close. Although you might not say so out loud, you know you're quite highly advanced in your chosen fields, and helping your peers cram in some last minute study seems like the right thing to do.

[X][Plan] Plan The Most Electives
-[X][Training] Breakthrough attempt x5

[X][Social] Rather than facing exams at the end of the schoolyear, the fourth year disciples compete against each other in a year-long tourney. The finals are a public spectacle, and you have no intention of missing out on the show.

[X][Social] The Ravenclaw first year study club is becoming more active as the year draws to a close. Although you might not say so out loud, you know you're quite highly advanced in your chosen fields, and helping your peers cram in some last minute study seems like the right thing to do.

[X][Social] Sue and Mandy both seem to be the outdoors types, and your visit to the Forbidden Forest wasn't all that bad. Try to get your friends to be each other's friends and take a trek through the woods together.

[X][Plan] Plan The Most Electives
-[X][Training] Breakthrough attempt x5

To those voting for any version of Finishing Up, could I convince you to swap to the plan 5 Points or 8 Points, or both? They are the same, only the latter give way more points of progress and better odds of winning the House Cup.

And to those voting for The Most Electives, well, if your reason is because you just want to break through early, then yeah, this shouldn't change your mind. But if your reason is what's in the plan's name, training Electives the highest, then the Points plans are comparable and maybe slightly better on that front (thanks to better pools and higher overflow), as well as better on the other levels: Astronomy and Charms already being at Apprentice+ (instead of having to devote a month of second year to them), a more likely Potions milestone gained by the overflow (instead of having to devote some actions in a month of second year to it), and the snowballing aspect that follows all these advantages being more significant.

[X][SVP] Horizon Slicing Techique
[X][Plan] Finishing up (no points)
[X][Quidditch] The Omen
[X][Social] Contrary to the rumors, Harry Potter is nothing more than a polite twelve year old boy. You sincerely doubt that he's taken Gryffindor's loss of the quidditch cup to heart, but you'd still best make sure that that is the case.
[X][Social] The Ravenclaw first year study club is becoming more active as the year draws to a close. Although you might not say so out loud, you know you're quite highly advanced in your chosen fields, and helping your peers cram in some last minute study seems like the right thing to do.

I thought points only applied to social actions?
Wouldn't we need to tack them on there not in the learning plan?

If so I think study club or 4th year spectating would be good possible areas but QM nerf to prevent insta-cheese would make me think a 3 or 2 point bonus aimed at the summer months would serve us better than 5 or 8 points aimed for the current month (value/pt not raw stats). It could also be a situation where we snag a permanent item or something that is awesome but doesn't contribute much to pursuit of the cup. The house cup itself feels like it is worth about 6 points due to the anti-debuff for training, tutoring, and chit vault.

Whatever we choose the race is tight and like the last update there's a lot of suspense.

KarmaA said:

I thought points only applied to social actions?
Wouldn't we need to tack them on there not in the learning plan?

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Not anymore. It's been changed a few turns ago to make it so that sect points now are part of the training plan while social votes are separated.

It's hard to say what the House Cup is worth in sect points or even progress points, because it has benefits that can't really be compared or quantified. I can easily say that it's incredibly good, though, and in my honest opinion, way better than 6 sect points and the 400ish progress points that spending them would add to our turn.

Edit - And anyway, the choice isn't, A) use sect points or B) win the House Cup, but A) use sect points and win the House Cup or B) don't use sect points and win the House Cup. One is definitely an improvement over the other. At least as far as the 5/8 Points plans and the Finishing Up one are concerned.

Epic Bygones said:

Edit - And anyway, the choice isn't, A) use sect points or B) win the House Cup, but A) use sect points and win the House Cup or B) don't use sect points and win the House Cup. One is definitely an improvement over the other. At least as far as the 5/8 Points plans and the Finishing Up one are concerned.

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Thanks for the clarification on point usage.

It's a guaranteed win then?
My impression was we could use points to try and influence the cup result. Use a few (or none) and our donation would secure the cup (Win), Use a middle amount and risk not get a large enough boost to offset loss of donation points (Lose), or use a ton and probably get the cup through bonuses and performance alone (Win).

I just realised winning the House cup doesn't actually help any of our yearmates with breaking through or meeting the 2nd year requirements.

The Jade Chit just gives techniques or charms and the like, the elective training is only useful for people who've already met the requirements, and as @Karf isn't adjusting NPC training rolls to account for the summer holidays the first benefit doesn't do anything for them.

The Cup would still be great for us, and it does give those in the winning year who pass an extra edge over their peers, but it doesn't help those who've struggling to begin with.

KarmaA said:

Thanks for the clarification on point usage.

It's a guaranteed win then?
My impression was we could use points to try and influence the cup result. Use a few (or none) and our donation would secure the cup (Win), Use a middle amount and risk not get a large enough boost to offset loss of donation points (Lose), or use a ton and probably get the cup through bonuses and performance alone (Win).

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No plan guarantees a win, but spending points (5 especially) stacks the odds in our favor.

If we spend 8 points and we get a boon that makes us win 4 (2 from two subjects and 2 from overall) out of the total 9 points, at the very minimum (meaning, no other Ravenclaw wins points), we'd be at 38+4. Slytherin is at 38 and would have to win 4 out of the 5 available points remaining to just tie us at 42, and 5 out of 5 to surpass us, which is extremely unlikely to happen.

If we spend 5 and we get a boon that makes us win 3 (1 from a subject and 2 from overall) out of the total 9 points, at the very minimum (meaning, no other Ravenclaw wins points), we'd be at 37+6. Slytherin is at 38 and would have to win 5 out of the 6 available points remaining just to tie us at 43 and 6 out of 6 to surpass us, and once again, that's extremely unlikely.

If we spend 0, we are less likely to win points because we'd have no boon (though we still could), and Slytherin would have more chances to win enough to tie us. That's for the Finishing Up plan at least. We're still not sure how breaking through attempts count towards point counting and gaining (i.e. it could be that they don't count for much, and we'd be relying more on our fellow Ravenclaws doing well and Slytherin doing bad, than on our own selves).

Karnax626 said:

I just realised winning the House cup doesn't actually help any of our yearmates with breaking through or meeting the 2nd year requirements.

The Jade Chit just gives techniques or charms and the like, the elective training is only useful for people who've already met the requirements, and as @Karf isn't adjusting NPC training rolls to account for the summer holidays the first benefit doesn't do anything for them.

The Cup would still be great for us, and it does give those in the winning year who pass an extra edge over their peers, but it doesn't help those who've struggling to begin with.

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I suppose if they fail at the end of August they will atleast have one or two potions/charms or techs that's going to be useful to them forever. Unless the ones who don't pass get their cultivation broken, but there are usually minor sects in Xianxia novels. I suppose they'd go to one of those.