A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
So lets make some arguments for Inheritance. First what it does
- We get infinite Rank, which buffs all other abilities. We can use Space and Law with that Rank, so this also buff Sanctum, and there is also Deadly Star. Which could prove quite vital, actually
- We get infinite Willpower, which means infinite Might and thus Ruin, infinite Agility so more real speed and, of course, a ton of Praxis Stamina. I've already argued that Maiden is quite likely to employ tiredness effects to counter our Praxis, and just having a lot of Praxis Stamina sidesteps that. In practice, this means more RoW spam
- Then the two combine into a super Ruin. This is very powerful on its own, but it becomes extremely powerful once you use it with Ruin Prison. This basically allows us to doom every action enemy tries to make to failure, and then it also stacks with Sanctum as every time they manage to do anything, it becomes less likely that they will manage to do their next action
- The go to strategy is as straightforward as it is efficient. You put Rune Prison on the target, which is to say Maiden, so she starts tanking Sanctum penalty. Once some time has passed, we can proc RoW, which will immensely increase the power of Ruin Prison, stunning the Maiden for the duration of RoW. Then we run to her and Pierce her Through a couple of times, or use our infinite Ruin Deadly Star
- Besides, CtFing with Letrizia is extremely efficient. Sharpbright gives user advanced control over Rank and competence based on Rank, which is just good with infinite Rank
- Likewise, Rune Prison's ability can be used on allies and ourselves. Since it is pretty much a free form destiny manipulation as long as it is in slightly entropic direction, we can use it to enhance our actions just as we'd nerf enemy actions. This has obvious uses with training/improving ourselves and can be used as super healing or just an additional defense
- In fact, if we use Space to contain the Human Sphere, we can just Rune Prison the entire thing
Genesys
(Discrete Mokona)
- Location
- California
it's the rise of markergang these days
anyway, calling my marker for Inheritance, @Birdsie, though you still have the veto you can use if you'd like
as for the omake, being terribly indecisive, I have no real requests, so either if permitted, I'll just save it, or you can just write 5k omake about whatever
anyway, calling my marker for Inheritance, @Birdsie, though you still have the veto you can use if you'd like
as for the omake, being terribly indecisive, I have no real requests, so either if permitted, I'll just save it, or you can just write 5k omake about whatever
Birdsie
Sharp Talons Cleave The Worthy
- Location
- Poland
In order to cash in this marker, you gotta duel Zampano in the ring of honor (heh, ring). Man's already got a claim to my soul. I'll change my vote if you both can come to a satisfactory agreement between yourselves. Although between you and me, given how the winds are blowing, it's likely Zampano will change votes anyway cuzza his deal.
They're coming out of hibernation right in time for the last build vote.
Better them than the Strategic Omake Reservists, or the Infinite Reaction Huskarls, or another Gisenite Crusade.
Gabbie
That One Writer
- Location
- Italy
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Or... the Haeliel Simp Gang... [shudders]
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
The closest thing to a Golden Tomorrow ending in my eye is the one where Hunger defeats the Maiden on Imperishable Night and the party/a majority of the Human Sphere's population lives. Neither I nor a majority of the rest of the thread is willing to attempt that though. It also means nothing about us or our actions creates something the Apocryphal can easily exploit to create future adversaries for us.
Which just leaves Blood Halo vs Inheritance.
Ethics: We have the choice of potentially condemning uncountable regions of the multiverse, if not the entire omniverse, to an end to eternity. Wretched and Prosperous, our existence is the decree that their stories will end in 1*10^72 years(An estimate for a Vigintillion Eons by adding 9 zeros to it for the size of an eon in years in geology) unless we find a way to transcend it or gain perfect control of our ruin/rank or something rather than embracing it as part of our nature like Uttermost does for the Tyrants doom. It's like Decimation Lite. No matter how many orders of magnitude you add you don't get true infinity. true eternal life. Curses are for mitigating. The alternative is to reorient our incentive structure around more direct imperialism and conquest until we can get strong enough to acquire more mitigation. Bloody war on a multiversal scale. Also an ethical debacle but one we signed up for on some level because the Geas of Indenture/Apocrypha. One that for some arbitrary reason I think we have more hope of mitigating. Make a Valhalla. Resurrect the dead after the war. Maybe Gisena can start a breeding program for ISH 4+ God FIsh. Something like that.
Speculation: There are only two relationship pluses in Inheritance for a reason. Everyone except Gisena and a bare minimum of the human sphere to not indenture kill hunger dies beyond hope of Resurrection without like, several more steps on the ISH or a True Wish if it's possible at all in Inheritance victory. Or we're going to get a series of multiple choice Trolley Problems regardless of what option we take. The Arete considerations are to determine who or what gets excluded from the trolley problems. It's not entirely rational but I've got this gut feeling telling me Inheritance is going to be extremely bittersweet.
Epilogue Events: At some point after Hunger somehow learns Ordinalism, they... I dunno, start making out during Haeliels biannual visits until Hunger transcends linear time or dies? That's all it takes. A Haeliel ending doesn't have to say anything about whether or not Hunger pulls off actual vengeance. If I have to choose between storming the gates of whatever ISH Incomprehensible wonderland the Hidden Ones live in with an Army of clones of ourself or an army of actual people, I think storming it with an army of actual people is cooler. Not like we'd be able to understand the actual fight regardless of our decisions.
The scene I want to see is a sizable chunk of our party go Ordinalist Angel. Forget giving Haeliel a lover, give her students worthy of her time. Aobaru's Got ISH 4.x Vigorflame(Blood Halo+Legendary assuming True Vigorflame peaked in the twos before) for combat situations. Like... Aobaru and the Human Sphere which is now the second coming of the Unshattered foremost in terms of power or even further beyond rescuing hunger from an Apocryphal proc several tasks later or something. Even though we still wouldn't be able to understand the fight. Dialoguewise though Aobaru and Hunger meeting again seems cool. We finally get the framework complete for Gisena to go time dilation singularity/start getting cross system synergies if she hasn't done that offscreen. Mythology Halo... I backed that in hopes of fueling Gisena's singularity but that got pushed back. Maybe it's cargoculting Nameless but I want more people to have cross system synergy options. Even we've got Magic and essence to empower Ordinalist stuff to our level combined with the ISH +1 buff for using Ordinalism in combat. Somebody might even discover Internal Alchemy or Vitalism.
Also the Intelligence buff for Blood Halo is ridiculous. Sure, Inheritance Hunger is superhumanly intelligent. Blood Halo Hunger makes Inheritance Hunger look like a drooling idiot though which says good things for his Epilogue prospects IMO. ISH debuffs from Blood Halo are as subject to progression as everything else.
Letting our Party boggle at their being dragged up the ISH curve by Companions of the King is also something fun to think about.
Pragmatics: Also Blood Halo plausibly gives us dominion over Shonen powerups. Giving those to our now unchained by the ring self/Aobaru/Our Army sounds practical and awesome.
Which just leaves Blood Halo vs Inheritance.
Ethics: We have the choice of potentially condemning uncountable regions of the multiverse, if not the entire omniverse, to an end to eternity. Wretched and Prosperous, our existence is the decree that their stories will end in 1*10^72 years(An estimate for a Vigintillion Eons by adding 9 zeros to it for the size of an eon in years in geology) unless we find a way to transcend it or gain perfect control of our ruin/rank or something rather than embracing it as part of our nature like Uttermost does for the Tyrants doom. It's like Decimation Lite. No matter how many orders of magnitude you add you don't get true infinity. true eternal life. Curses are for mitigating. The alternative is to reorient our incentive structure around more direct imperialism and conquest until we can get strong enough to acquire more mitigation. Bloody war on a multiversal scale. Also an ethical debacle but one we signed up for on some level because the Geas of Indenture/Apocrypha. One that for some arbitrary reason I think we have more hope of mitigating. Make a Valhalla. Resurrect the dead after the war. Maybe Gisena can start a breeding program for ISH 4+ God FIsh. Something like that.
Speculation: There are only two relationship pluses in Inheritance for a reason. Everyone except Gisena and a bare minimum of the human sphere to not indenture kill hunger dies beyond hope of Resurrection without like, several more steps on the ISH or a True Wish if it's possible at all in Inheritance victory. Or we're going to get a series of multiple choice Trolley Problems regardless of what option we take. The Arete considerations are to determine who or what gets excluded from the trolley problems. It's not entirely rational but I've got this gut feeling telling me Inheritance is going to be extremely bittersweet.
Epilogue Events: At some point after Hunger somehow learns Ordinalism, they... I dunno, start making out during Haeliels biannual visits until Hunger transcends linear time or dies? That's all it takes. A Haeliel ending doesn't have to say anything about whether or not Hunger pulls off actual vengeance. If I have to choose between storming the gates of whatever ISH Incomprehensible wonderland the Hidden Ones live in with an Army of clones of ourself or an army of actual people, I think storming it with an army of actual people is cooler. Not like we'd be able to understand the actual fight regardless of our decisions.
The scene I want to see is a sizable chunk of our party go Ordinalist Angel. Forget giving Haeliel a lover, give her students worthy of her time. Aobaru's Got ISH 4.x Vigorflame(Blood Halo+Legendary assuming True Vigorflame peaked in the twos before) for combat situations. Like... Aobaru and the Human Sphere which is now the second coming of the Unshattered foremost in terms of power or even further beyond rescuing hunger from an Apocryphal proc several tasks later or something. Even though we still wouldn't be able to understand the fight. Dialoguewise though Aobaru and Hunger meeting again seems cool. We finally get the framework complete for Gisena to go time dilation singularity/start getting cross system synergies if she hasn't done that offscreen. Mythology Halo... I backed that in hopes of fueling Gisena's singularity but that got pushed back. Maybe it's cargoculting Nameless but I want more people to have cross system synergy options. Even we've got Magic and essence to empower Ordinalist stuff to our level combined with the ISH +1 buff for using Ordinalism in combat. Somebody might even discover Internal Alchemy or Vitalism.
Also the Intelligence buff for Blood Halo is ridiculous. Sure, Inheritance Hunger is superhumanly intelligent. Blood Halo Hunger makes Inheritance Hunger look like a drooling idiot though which says good things for his Epilogue prospects IMO. ISH debuffs from Blood Halo are as subject to progression as everything else.
Letting our Party boggle at their being dragged up the ISH curve by Companions of the King is also something fun to think about.
Pragmatics: Also Blood Halo plausibly gives us dominion over Shonen powerups. Giving those to our now unchained by the ring self/Aobaru/Our Army sounds practical and awesome.
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I do wonder about that Rank/Ruin's inevitable ending clause, and if it may be ...if not circumvented, then played with by Hunger, who would probably have quite good control.
These ideas depend very much on how much control we have and if these are even possible in its thematics. If we could've kept Edeldross we maybe could've tried to integrate some of its themes later. Cycles.
Main ways I can see are, for example destroying things in part such as is already "natural" in most cases. Cells may die, but are replaced, kingdoms end and turn into republics etc.
The death of a universe could, maybe be similar? Like a post-Crisis comic restructuring instead of a fall into nothingness, or some laws ending faster and being manually replaced by a new one, in a wave instead of just imploding at once.
Depends on how RuinRank would view things. Is a "Example Joe" a concrete metaphysically distinct entity to be ruined (his Form?) or can you dodge around it by dividing the hypothetical person into cells, spiritual parts, X or Y personality traits, Fate etc and Ship of Theseusing people.
Most interestingly, things are fated to "ruin of some form", probably of escalating nature of ruin-ness, but its not quite fated to absolute annihilation or nothingness from the get-go.
I also imagine manual maintenance or fresh resources could buy time. And I don't know if it would be infinite or not because of the levels of interactions at play here.
Also, if we are around to do manual maintenance then it shouldn't matter probably? Since even the vigintillion estimate is post Indenture. Gives even more weight to survival and greatness though. If we aren't around we indirectly condemn some potentially infinite lives to non-infinity.
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Birdsie
Sharp Talons Cleave The Worthy
- Location
- Poland
A few things to note:
- The death of a universe is meaningless. You can simply make a new one and move the people there.
- None of this will matter once Hunger reaches High Cursebearer or even mid-Cursebearer. At those levels, he can simply make it so that Ruin isn't Ruinous if he wants.
- Also literally everything we do is just stalling until the Accursed can win the position of true omnipotent and save everyone in existence to give them paradise.
Gabbie
That One Writer
- Location
- Italy
- Pronouns
- They/Them
He's already a True Omnipotent. It's just that there's Truer Omnipotents than him still out there.
Birdsie
Sharp Talons Cleave The Worthy
- Location
- Poland
He's a type 3 omnipotent. He needs to become the type 4.
Does the Rank-Ruin combo automatically encompass usual Rank effects like having an opponent just make suboptimal or bad decisions? That is also most definitely a form of ruin...
I do wonder what one of the Implicate Veil's effects for the Maiden means for us, namely that her Rank is 15 when manifesting in this realm.
I questioned how it is she's resisting infinite Rank so good and I almost convinced myself its because it sets her Rank to 15, but it didn't say she has usually less rank without that option, not more. I hope its just Grace or findross fuckery at this point.
Rendering her mute should also be something to pursue, seeing as her being unable to speak is said to maybe effect what magics she has access to. Though maybe this only matters with Implicate Veil due to it specifying non-findross Sorceress powers too.
I do wonder what one of the Implicate Veil's effects for the Maiden means for us, namely that her Rank is 15 when manifesting in this realm.
I questioned how it is she's resisting infinite Rank so good and I almost convinced myself its because it sets her Rank to 15, but it didn't say she has usually less rank without that option, not more. I hope its just Grace or findross fuckery at this point.
Rendering her mute should also be something to pursue, seeing as her being unable to speak is said to maybe effect what magics she has access to. Though maybe this only matters with Implicate Veil due to it specifying non-findross Sorceress powers too.
Even Rank 11 can just make enemies experience spontaneous quantum collapse. Ruin of Inheritance level can automatically counter all abilities and instantly end any opponent in any possible or impossible way we can think of. It is like MEoDP, except it works on everything automatically just by being near Hunger unless you can contest our power of Ruin. Maiden can resist this effect, of course, to this or that extent. With Prison of Runes every single thing she tries(i.e. moving, breathing, thinking or just plain existing) will automatically be contested by our Ruin, and if she fails the action will fail in the worst way possible. And then you proc RoW to elevate our Might, and thus our Ruin, to have a burst of powerful elevation to this ability - and with our Praxis stamina getting boosted by Willpower we can proc RoW frequently.
Of course, expect Maiden to have extremely powerful anti-entropy powers because, well, that's what she does and that's what counters us the best. So instead of contesting effect, she can just make it so she doesn't have entropy and just maintain that effect.
Of course, expect Maiden to have extremely powerful anti-entropy powers because, well, that's what she does and that's what counters us the best. So instead of contesting effect, she can just make it so she doesn't have entropy and just maintain that effect.
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
Happily, although you should know that I've already agreed with @Strange9 to switch to whichever of BH/Inheritance is more likely to beat IN. You could theoretically keep your marker and still see me vote Inheritance. I'll let the two of you figure out whether I should mark off Lealope's vetoless Zampano Marker Classic.
[x] Lealope.
@Birdsie will remain on BH, unless I can have a 1-veto marker each from @Lealope & @Genesys. Your markers will be used in whatever the next Rihakuquest is, excluding Chargen and excluding any Epilogue votes.
Windlass
A Windy Lass
- Location
- Wherever the wind is blowing
>mfw Aeira doesn't appear in the almost-epilogue 'cause her stealth skills let her hide from the narration
[X] The Forebear's Blade - Inheritance
This has the highest chance of earning that happy ending imo? Direct arete -> odds convo, max power. Also it's a SORD option, iunno if that meme's still a thing but it's a priority for me. Hun-kun's gone full Forebear every time the option was offered so why stop now. Kinda curious how assuming the title will work too, realizing he was the Forebear the first time was a good scene. Gimme that sick Rihaku powerup sequence fix~
[X] The Forebear's Blade - Inheritance
This has the highest chance of earning that happy ending imo? Direct arete -> odds convo, max power. Also it's a SORD option, iunno if that meme's still a thing but it's a priority for me. Hun-kun's gone full Forebear every time the option was offered so why stop now. Kinda curious how assuming the title will work too, realizing he was the Forebear the first time was a good scene. Gimme that sick Rihaku powerup sequence fix~
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
Think about what it means that Inheritance converts Arete to win%. It seems like Forebear Hunger will just have to Cut Through harder than he's ever done before (because infinite Ruin is being totally countered by the Maiden).
Blood Halo spends Arete on making Hunger a better and more excellent example and teacher for Aobaru / more compatible with Gisena's hyper tech. Aeira is also there.
I know which I prefer, but considering the voter base this actually feels like a home run argument for Inheritance. The voters sure love a shonen power up scene.
Everybody put your hands up in the air and send Goku your spirit energy!
Blood Halo spends Arete on making Hunger a better and more excellent example and teacher for Aobaru / more compatible with Gisena's hyper tech. Aeira is also there.
I know which I prefer, but considering the voter base this actually feels like a home run argument for Inheritance. The voters sure love a shonen power up scene.
Everybody put your hands up in the air and send Goku your spirit energy!
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Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Just looking at this from a quest design perspective, Rihaku doesn't make trap choices for the most part. Generally, all the options are balanced between risk and reward, potential and power, cost and benefit. The suggestion that actually, Inheritance will get super hard countered and the option is just plain bad is pure ??? The options benefits and drawbacks are clear on the face of it. Remember, the Maiden achieving a single (albeit powerful) ISH 4 effect was a whole option for her. That is to say, it's being balanced against stuff like "infinite training and preptime time" and "all the powers of everyone who even tangentially learned sorcery ever".
And that option was described as the strongest of the five!
Assuming that she'll be able to trivially develop the ISH 4 effects necessary to totally counter Ruin-Rank is completely unsupported by anything we know. Everything about Rihaku's language has emphasised that Inheritance is the option dedicated to power and winning, no matter the cost.
And that option was described as the strongest of the five!
Assuming that she'll be able to trivially develop the ISH 4 effects necessary to totally counter Ruin-Rank is completely unsupported by anything we know. Everything about Rihaku's language has emphasised that Inheritance is the option dedicated to power and winning, no matter the cost.
If there are greater powers than him he is not omnipotent.
It would very much fit her themes, so it's reasonable to assume that.
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Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I've got no doubts she's got a specific anti-ruin power, along with specific counters to five fucktillion other things. That's one of the benefits of infinite training time. I just doubt it will be anywhere near enough to totally nullify Ruin-Rank the way people have been suggesting. If you wanna bet that it will, then I'm happy to wager 3 vote markers.
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Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
The argument is that every option has a path to failure, and a hard counter to 2/3 of our build is the most plausible failure state for Inheritance that I can think of.
If you think that I've characterized that as "totally nullifying" Ruin-Rank then I've communicated badly. Inheritance is a direct arm wrestling match with the Maiden about whose ISH-wank is higher. It's fine if that's what you want to read about, but I feel like the discord chat went entire weeks without anything for me to contribute back when the ISH explanation was coming out.
I'm more interested in Prowess than Potency, basically.