I imagine that since the implication is that Forebear did become strong enough to fight the Accursed, the fact that we have Progression makes us far more likely to surpass him. Being allied to the Accursed helps too, of course. "Being like the Forebear" is, in this sense, the most proven method of power we have between the options. Yeah, he did in fact die, but he did become stronger than any other being we know of barring one, so...
 
[X] The Tears of Winter, the Dog of War, the Evening Sky - Imperishable Night

Hopefully the last time I change my vote.
 
Kinda not wrong, tbh.
If we do go with "PR our way to victory" strat, then this would be be put to some use, as increased outcomes would make our kingdom even more attractive and thus more capable of expansion. Peaceful Domination baby.

Is it a good way to spend Arete? Well, since I don't know how it translates to QoL I can't really say. Getting a point or two would be pretty good.
 
Yeah, honestly, it's pretty yikes that people are arguing that Forebear route is somehow not as effective a route to power as either Blood Halo or Imperishable Night. Like, taking the blurb of Inheritance at face-value, we know Forebear was absolutely relevant to the Accursed given that in his death-throes, he inflicted a Doom capable of diminishing the Accursed. If the Hidden Ones are Cursegivers, then Forebear was definitely at least within consideration of peer-level with these guys.

Getting the Forebear's power at an analogous stage of development, his unique abilities and insights derived through the hellish crucible of the Procession of Worlds without having to go through it again and then pairing it up with the heaven-shattering power of Progression seems like a pretty straightforward method to exceeding the Hidden Ones. I mean, unless the Hidden Ones have managed to jury-rig their way into Progression themselves, Hunger's current potential is already at a level with semi-decent chances of extracting his vengeance.

There's a lot of concern as to whether Inheritance gives enough growth potential, but a universal truth of Rihaku quests is that 'power compounds on power'. Get the Forebear's power now, pwn the Maiden and then utilize Inheritance in conjunction with Archmage and Progression to power-level faster seems pretty solid as plans go. I mean, it's a toss-up as to whether removal of the training malus on Hunger's Progression is better, but given that Inheritance unlocks the Haeliel ending and the Forebear was probably near or even on High Cursebear level prior to his downfall, I think Inheritance has a more than fair shot at taking down the Hidden Ones.

Like, there's trying to do something new and then there's diverging from a route that's already been proven effective for randomness' sake. Mastering the Forebear's Blade in conjunction with Progression is absolutely viable and maybe even the most reasonable option to take in the face of imminent death, i.e. the Maiden fight.

And it certainly sounds like a better strategy than turtling up for five chapters, hoping to God that somehow the questers generate a mountain of Arete from the ether to power-level again, and betting that laziness and 1 Progression + is enough to save the day. Really, if Progression + was so amazing, why the heck did Ruling Ring only cost 25 Arete?

Hunger isn't Nameless (thank god) and it just doesn't seem in-keeping with his character to go Night, cause it literally being called the route of 'procrastination' is kinda iffy. Also, reliving Dien fight is totally not my cup of tea and I would really prefer to move to the end swiftly.
 


Five more people, come on guys. I'm offering 100% vetoless vote markers to anyone who votes for Imperishable Night.
 
And it certainly sounds like a better strategy than turtling up for five chapters, hoping to God that somehow the questers generate a mountain of Arete from the ether to power-level again, and betting that laziness and 1 Progression + is enough to save the day. Really, if Progression + was so amazing, why the heck did Ruling Ring only cost 25 Arete?
I beg your pardon, IH has actual strategies and pretty proactive ones at that as invincible position means that we can do actually something besides trying not to die to Maiden. I'd know since I've made them. They are quite good.

Inheritance strat so far is "uh, i guess it will work out lol" because folks can't warp their head around infinite rank. Stones and glass houses etc
 
Forebear fell to Accursed specifically, and where on the current power level tree he was before he fell.

Nah, the Forebear was confirmed to be HC tier, being capable of Stage 8 Mitigation as per Rihaku. The fact that he was a Cursegiver confirms that fact besides, which is also an obvious indication just who he died to, unless you're suggesting he died to someone else and just spent his last breath giving the Accursed a Curse because ??????
 
Caveat: I don't quite remember anymore just how exactly Apocryphal scales her attacks on Hunger vs. his own Progress, so maybe I'm worrying for nothing and Hunger will always be one step ahead of her just doing his normal training.

But the last thing I want to happen is for Hunger to become predictable for the Curse, which is what is going to happen if he turtles up. She probably can't perfectly anticipate how fast he is going to improve, but her approximations will become far more accurate if she knows all the inputs. There's no shortage of dangerous opponents she could unleash on us, and letting her determine what level of enemies we will face at what times gives her free reign to fine-tune her plans. I really don't want to see what web she could weave after even a few iterations of this.

The plan to let other extradimensional polities join us would bring some variability, but I would like to know some more details if we are going to stake Hunger's success on it.

I think it was said that Hunger would get messages out there and let people decide for themselves whether they want to join his +x QoL kingdom, thus expanding his range of Protection. Since the Maiden wouldn't just sit on her hands and ignore this attempt, we would need some way to get past the information blockade. As the only thing IN Hunger has that can really contest her is his Protection, it was suggested that he would use Space to separate some heavily Protected elements of his kingdom (or maybe just people) and send them out as negotiators. I presume that they would also double as protection for the prospective polities in case the Maiden decided to end them before they could come to a decision?

So the question is just whether Hunger can do all of that or whether he can learn to in a short enough timeframe. And would the Geas interfere in some way? A big point in the plan's favor would be if this would directly contribute to his Progression, not just increase his Protection.

All in all it's a cool plan, and it alleviates a lot of my worries about IN winning, but I'd like some more certainty about how possible some of its elements are.

Edit: Wait, so the reason why Haeliel likes Inheritance!Hunger is because it has the best chances of getting to High Cursebearer? Cause it makes sense that a relationship between a HC and a non-HC would be troublesome to start or maintain, to say the least.
 
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So the question is just whether Hunger can do all of that or whether he can learn to in a short enough timeframe. And would the Geas interfere in some way? A big point in the plan's favor would be if this would directly contribute to his Progression, not just increase his Protection.
We are actually already sort of doing that -
*Synergy: The Dog of War - At the center and seat of Hunger's power sits his ultimate forbidding, the Hyper-Dimensional fortress Novakhron whose flesh is the stuff of unbound infinities. Within the corridors of its eternal labyrinth reside entire continuums of lesser realities, of ontologies mundane or even slightly less magical sheltering beneath its illimitable aegis. The tribute of these uncountable realms accrues to Hunger as power: +Progression, +800 All Stats, and +.5 Stage Apocryphal Mitigation. ++Accursed Favor.
Just with "lesser realities". So we already have the ability to extract value out of vassal polities plus we can actually wield our territories in combat as a mecha. Or we can CtF with Hper Nova to become one with all our realms.

Man the more I think about IH the more hilarious the option becomes. "I AM THE KINGDOM"
 
Nah, the Forebear was confirmed to be HC tier, being capable of Stage 8 Mitigation as per Rihaku. The fact that he was a Cursegiver confirms that fact besides, which is also an obvious indication just who he died to, unless you're suggesting he died to someone else and just spent his last breath giving the Accursed a Curse because ??????
Since I didn't find this statement on either Discord or the Statement Index, I'm going to assume it was made on Foremost Chat. However, looking through the Statement Index, I was reminded of something interesting:
That would be too overpowered, I think. Perhaps you might call upon the Forebear one day... if you somehow managed that, you'd potentially gain a tremendous amount of insight into the nature of the Hidden Ones!
Man, remember this plot hook? Since literally being revealed as the Forebear reborn wasn't enough, will Inheritance help or put us on the path of the above @Rihaku?
 
Speaking of predictability, lets play Maiden for a bit. You are playing Maiden, you go to infinite time realm to train to fight against Hunger - and you will naturally try to predict what Hunger would do. The obvious answer is that he would put some kind of protection on his guys and come out to fight you as that is his general MO, so that's basically Inheritor. His second kind of attack would be all out offense using his Praxis to take out opponent before they can do enough damage, which is to say BH. Hunger's last move would be to retreat and using his Progression to outscale the Maiden, so IH.

Except we can do none of above and instead do PR battle instead. So Maiden comes out decked out in personal combat regalia and instead we are playing multiversal hide and seek meme game. So suddenly her power is not applied efficiently at all. And yes, beings at her level can do many things with their powers, but in general you really need to specialize to get most conceptual elevation for your buck. We can expect Maiden to leave some room for respecing in her infinite time realm, but those things have cost.

So how would you build Maiden if you had to fight Hunger? She likely used Archsmith to consume Graces in order to create arms - Spear of White Rose, which reverses narrative to bring the end of evil, Shield of White Tear, which reverses damage and entropy, Plate of White Oak, which emanates ontology which suppresses laws and magic of those working against the Maiden and finally Helm of White Sun, which lets Maiden see through all treachery and exhausts her foes with her own eternal tiredness(joke's on her we've got Might's Repose!).

Does this specifically counters everything we can do? Pretty much. Maiden had infinite time to specifically build up her abilities to counter Hunger's own specific abilities, so we can expect not only overwhelming power, but also abilities that exists solely to counter Ruin, Praxis(mostly via tiredness), Rank and Archmage.

You will notice that most of this do absolutely nothing to help her in proposed IH gameplay. Exception is specific Archmage counters, which we will want to use within our Protection anyway so we should have some measure of, well, protection and something like "her power increases the longer the fight goes" similar to how our AoQ does, but that kind of thing should have some limit so it shouldn't be possible for Maiden to overpower the IH from the start.

So the strategy itself would put Maiden in the disadvantage as her entire build is likely to be laser focused on crushing Hunger in combat and not on convincing people that joining magic paradise realm is somehow not a good idea. In other words, we gain massive amount of advantage from the start, and we work on our plan to surround and capture Maiden from there.
 
A comedic AST/GiS crossover short.

Pure As The Driven Fucking Snow

It was Christmas at the Raven's Arcana, a relatively joyous affair for its workers.

In order to better arrange things, the interior of the Arcana had shifted into its wide space module A-72 configuration, providing a shopping chamber the size of a warehouse with over two thousand square meters of interior space with a ceiling of over two kilometers.

It was utter ridicule to make space this expansive for a simple Christmas tree, but Kodbromaal was adamant to challenge himself this year. He leaped around the tree with assiduous and massively hypersonic motions, shearing away chunks of pine with the swipes of his sword, and leaving startlingly ostentatious decorations on its branches - shining diamond orbs the size of human heads, icicles forged out of the bodies of primordial winter elementals, the teardrops of ancient gods, glittering orichalcum tinsel and garland, lights made out of soul-infused mineral crystals shining with a rainbow of anima colors, and an actual star they'd shrunk and folded spatially as a topping. It was, of course, a tree from the realm of Jotunheim, much bigger than a skyscraper would be in a world of casual modernity.

At the same time, Xylzrilyn, Emily, and Raum were wrapping gifts for one another. It was Alexiel's turn to be Santa Claus this year, or as she liked to call it, 'Mommy Christmas.'

It was, of course, an utter waste of time to do any of this. All of them were the apprentices of Faust Windfallow - even if none of them had the merest fraction of their patron's raw magical strength and overall existential puissance, most of them nonetheless had near-unrestricted access to the Raven's Arcana Not-For-Clients section. There were artifacts and magic items within sufficiently powerful that, if deployed independently, the conquest of countless ontologies was nearly assured given time.

It was done because, in Emily's own words, such was the spirit of Christmas.

Naturally, Faust didn't believe in Christmas. He'd said as much, prompting Alexiel to regale the others with a charming vignette of how he used to be bullied during Christmas as a child, where his contemporaries would call him, 'Joust Cockswallow.' It was completely made-up; Alexiel didn't even know what he was like in his hundreds because he'd never bothered to share, let alone in his long-passed childhood, but the others merely laughed at her story and accepted it as 'presumably true,' irritating him endlessly.

As such, the elder lich had consigned himself to his personal study, where he, out of boredom, created a new unbound phylactery that had an entire microverse stored within as a mana battery. A microverse whose inhabitants were scarily reminiscent of Naruto characters.

As he boredly worked, weaving and folding spatial blind eternities, he felt a proverbial disturbance in the Force as some vast entity brushed its tendrils over his locality - a fraction's fraction of a yoctosecond later, the flow of time arrested its onward march, and Faust stood from his chair, scythe already in hand.

He stopped instead, kind of confused.

"What."

In front of him stood a man, unlike anything Faust had ever seen before. Around his eyes were dark circles of sleep deprivation, and yet he stared on with a kind of inexhaustible determination and appreciation for what was in front of him. His eyes were blue like an infinite sky, and on his back rested a sword of peerless gold. At once, Faust noticed the abnormal level of dislike he felt for this individual and, consequently, noticed a curse wrapped around his personality aspect equivalent composed of 'not a number' elements that made his soul analysis spell glitch out and melt even when he poured enough mana into it to overthrow a small South American government.

"Wow," Faust finally said, a moment's analysis later. He kept analyzing, even as he spoke, "You're an outer emanation of something bigger, I guess, though I can't tell for sure, and yet you're probably strong enough to overthrow... basically everything. External to the Perfect Diamond? Yep, must be. And literally beyond reason. I'm supposing-"

The man interrupted him, raising a hand. "Faust Windfallow, I come here with an offer."

"I don't think you're here to buy anything, which means you're selling something."

"Correct," said the man. He closed his eyes, a look of satisfaction visible in the creases of his lips. "Faust Windfallow, son of the unknown and son of the infinite, you are, to put it simply, the perfect candidate."

As the man opened his eyes, there were tears in them - tears of indescribable joy.

"Not only have you remained pure in body - you have done so for the equivalent of an infinity of sidereal years. Although some of your aspects are lacking, other factors warp your suitability into the extreme ranges. Never have you been stained by a woman's touch and never will you feel anything like it. Yes, to put it simply..."

Faust's hands felt weak.

"You are..."

No, no... I can't believe this...

"The ultimate virgin."

It felt like being shot with a rifle, in the heart.

"Faust Windfallow, heed me. I offer you a power unlike any other - that of infinite progression transcending any reason or logic. My offer is that of a simple transaction. Take up a portion of my burdens, and in exchange receive a fraction of my power! You are, should you choose to be, the ultimate Cursebearer."

He was bleeding internally and this man wanted something from him?

He'd dropped his scythe and folded into something between a crouch and a fetal position, hands resting on top of his head, pressing down with a physical pressure that seemed close to the emotional pressure he was under. All the while, he muttered in broken Japanese, "Iada... Yamete kure... G-guresu..."

After a couple of minutes of recovery, Faust meekly murmured, "I-I accept... please don't bully me anymore."

There was a bright smile on the Accursed's face, all of a sudden, and tears of stained appreciation danced in his eyes.

---

Wordcount: 1k
 
Random thoughts I posted on Discord.

How does this:
*Synergy: Gilded Cage - The splendor of evening is without peer. +++++Quality of Life for those in Hunger's Realm as the Realm of Evening is instantiated almost completely over the physical and Astral planes. Hunger estimates ~90% of the Sphere will survive the Maiden's initial onslaught and can be safely evacuated into the interior territories. +++Letrizia, ++Aeira

Interact with this?
*Wondrous Winterland: The Realm of Evening may now manifest a special 'Winter mode.' Allies within the Realm of Evening benefit from an optional aura of fruition, generosity, thanks-giving and good cheer. +++Mental Stability, ++++INT, +++++APP, +++++WILL to wielders, and to allies when within. Wielders always count as hydrated and well-fed.

Does the entire population of the Human Sphere get the Wondrous Winterland Buff, including Gisena with the 375% Buff to all attributes and surviving shards of the Foremost?

On another note more relevant to Blood Halo, Companions of the King Buffs.

So long as you are accompanied by a given anointed companion, your teamwork is effortless and masterful; you both receive +10% All Stats. The exploits of your companions redound on your own mythic history; receive +20% Rank gain for each companion anointed, so long as they are either directly assisting you or participating in tasks of legendary import. These effects can both stack. Finally, so long as even one companion is alive, you can always be revived from death via an incredibly difficult ritual.

If Party members are powerful enough to stand on the same battlefield as us, that enhances our own attributes.

Like if Hunger Brought just say... Aobaru and Gisena that's 20% on top of all the other attributes Blood Halo Gives us, here's a few of the bigger ones

Str(ROW ISH ELIGIBLE): 100,873(2.3)+127(4.8) = 232617.5, 697852.5 in Sanctum?
Con(ROW ISH ELIGIBLE): 100,819(2.3)+127(4.8) = 232493.3, 697479.9 in Sanctum?
Agi: 100,829(3)+127(4.8) = 303096.6, 909289.8 in Sanctum?
Int: 10,038(1.8) = 18068.4, 54205.2 in Sanctum?
Wits(ROW ISH ELIGIBLE):10,037*1.8 = 18066.6, 54199.8 in Sanctum

Combat Int: 10,038*1.8+9033.3 = 27107.3, 81305.1 in Sanctum
 
[X] The Tears of Winter, the Dog of War, the Evening Sky - Imperishable Night
For gabriels vote marker, though I'm also somewhat inclined for it anyway to be honest.
 
It is, in fact, everything, including Praxis.
You're right, I misspoke. I meant to say that it isn't a bonus to training the Praxis, because the Praxis already isn't bottlenecked by the Ring malus. But I accidentally spoke too broadly and made it sound like BH didn't interact favorably with the Praxis at all.
But the last thing I want to happen is for Hunger to become predictable for the Curse, which is what is going to happen if he turtles up.
Uhhhh what? Hunger is already predictable to the Curse. Something like 99% of all our Apo procs have been handled with the strategy of I WILL TANK IT WITH MY FACE. Meaning that, as Wolfy proceeded to explain at length, Apo-chan would have had free reign to build this proc specifically to counter that exact strategy. And presumably would have done so. And even if playing exactly into the approach she expects somehow still works out, that will only reaffirm that she can expect that same basic approach from us in future and she can refine her methods for fucking with it still further.

Speaking more broadly, the Apocryphal Curse will always have the initiative in our exchanges because we can't take the fight to her nor do we have any method of gaining advance intel (IC) on what she's considering hitting us with. The best we've got in that regard is increased mitigation, which incidentally Imperishable Night also gives us. But returning to my original point, that's why an impenetrable redoubt combined with +Progression is actually so damn good versus Apo in the long run. By taking away her ability to alpha strike us, we will consistently have the time and means to use our boosted Progression to tailor responses to her latest threat AFTER it has already revealed itself, reversing the dynamic we're facing currently. That's good as fuck.
You will notice that most of this do absolutely nothing to help her in proposed IH gameplay. Exception is specific Archmage counters, which we will want to use within our Protection anyway so we should have some measure of, well, protection and something like "her power increases the longer the fight goes" similar to how our AoQ does, but that kind of thing should have some limit so it shouldn't be possible for Maiden to overpower the IH from the start.

So the strategy itself would put Maiden in the disadvantage as her entire build is likely to be laser focused on crushing Hunger in combat and not on convincing people that joining magic paradise realm is somehow not a good idea. In other words, we gain massive amount of advantage from the start, and we work on our plan to surround and capture Maiden from there.
I wanted to highlight something relating to the bit I bolded. Namely, this guarantee:
*Protection +s now defend against virtually every conceivable form of attack that beings of the Maiden's power level could initiate
Does NOT only apply while within the Realm of Evening. Likewise the massive boosts to Prot gained from fractions of the Cloak/Realm being removed by damage. In other words, the more headway the Maiden thinks she's making in stripping away the Cloak/Realm of Evening, the more she's actually boosting our ability to contest her directly with increased Protection anywhere. That's a delicious bait-and-switch to hit an enemy with.

It also solves the concern @Unelemental raised with regards to how to get the message out IMO. We don't actually have to stay within the Realm of Evening in order to receive the benefits of its increased Prot, so we can use our hyperrapid transit from mastery over Space to be our own messenger.

It's possible that the Maiden might react to that by immediately rushing towards wherever we went and just destroying them, but in that case she's actually heavily incentivizing these recruitment targets to join up immediately so they'll have boosted Prot before she gets there. And if she subsequently manages to destroy them anyway, she's actually boosting the percentage of the Cloak of Evening that can be considered to have been removed by damage, without actually damaging our core holdings in the Human Sphere at all. So even in that case, she'd actually be playing into our hands even more.

In other words, she can't stop us from getting the message out, she can't stop people from joining up, and she can't even destroy the people who DO join up without playing into our hands one way or another. The strategy creates a lose-lose scenario for the Maiden, and a win-win scenario for us.

While meanwhile Inheritance's best "strategy" is still "uhhh this approach worked out before in a very different situation so let's just assume that it'll work out again here lol." And the thing about that strategy is that it, uh, isn't one. It's just an assumption based on a false premise, namely that because something worked against a very different scenario in the past (as I noted before, the best analogy to the Procession is a more depressing version of Indenture - it never displayed anything resembling the active and creative malice of the Apocryphal) therefore it must be sure to be the best bet to work now.
 
Hunger is already predictable to the Curse. Something like 99% of all our Apo procs have been handled with the strategy of I WILL TANK IT WITH MY FACE. Meaning that, as Wolfy proceeded to explain at length, Apo-chan would have had free reign to build this proc specifically to counter that exact strategy.
So the response to the Apocryphal trying to counter facetanking and outscaling a proc for Imperishable Night is to...get more Prot to facetank and hope to outscale it, which would require at least Inheritance or Blood Halo level advancements, in addition to Night in this case, and stalling while Apocryphal is still coming in the background...?

Edit: Specifically, my problem isn't with tanking and outscaling the proc, its with the idea that Imperishable Night is somehow not doing that and saying its something novel.
Its investing more into the tanking and scaling itself instead of just going to a viable solution which scaling would arrive at anyway, unless we die in the interim, which is very much possible and something I expect. I see it as very greedy. Just shoot her.
 
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stalling while Apocryphal is still coming in the background...?
This is by far the biggest weakness of the IN strategy proposed so far. The maiden is a nine month proc; even with IN's 0.5 Apo mitigation, turtling up runs the risk of allowing multiple Apocryphal activations to stack up. The Maiden might soon be joined by Doctor Apocolypse, or by the return of the unshattered Foremost, or by Seram...

Though I think Inheritance is the absolute wrong pick to fight the Maiden, the non-IN blurbs do have the advantage of resolving each Apo proc quickly & decisively.
 
Uhhhh what? Hunger is already predictable to the Curse. Something like 99% of all our Apo procs have been handled with the strategy of I WILL TANK IT WITH MY FACE. Meaning that, as Wolfy proceeded to explain at length, Apo-chan would have had free reign to build this proc specifically to counter that exact strategy. And presumably would have done so. And even if playing exactly into the approach she expects somehow still works out, that will only reaffirm that she can expect that same basic approach from us in future and she can refine her methods for fucking with it still further.

Speaking more broadly, the Apocryphal Curse will always have the initiative in our exchanges because we can't take the fight to her nor do we have any method of gaining advance intel (IC) on what she's considering hitting us with. The best we've got in that regard is increased mitigation, which incidentally Impenetrable Night also gives us. But returning to my original point, that's why an impenetrable redoubt combined with +Progression is actually so damn good versus Apo in the long run. By taking away her ability to alpha strike us, we will consistently have the time and means to use our boosted Progression to tailor responses to her latest threat AFTER it has already revealed itself, reversing the dynamic we're facing currently. That's good as fuck.
I wasn't talking about the predictability of Hunger's tactics, though reducing them to 'tank it with his face' doesn't really do all the Age & Treachery moments justice. Our foes may or may not be specifically designed to counter Hunger's weaknesses, but that isn't really something we can change - we can try stuff like acquire broad capabilities or increase our build's survivability, but it's not a panacea.

No, what I was talking about is one of the few limitations that Apocryphal (mostly) labors under, namely that she doesn't conjure her challenges out of thin air, and that her plans require a chain of events to come into fruition. Sometimes that chain of events is nonsensical, but she has to set things up so that she can get from 'Hunger chills out in his kingdom' to 'rocks fall everybody dies'. And that is so much easier to do when she knows where Hunger will be and what he will be doing at a given point in time. I doubt she can predict him perfectly, else we would have died in a spectacular and exceedingly interesting way already, but the less variability in his position, goals, powers, contacts, etc there is, the better she can tailor her approach.

Basically, sitting in one place and relying on the Evening Realm for all our Advancements is hitting all my warning buttons.

Does NOT only apply while within the Realm of Evening. Likewise the massive boosts to Prot gained from fractions of the Cloak/Realm being removed by damage. In other words, the more headway the Maiden thinks she's making in stripping away the Cloak/Realm of Evening, the more she's actually boosting our ability to contest her directly with increased Protection anywhere. That's a delicious bait-and-switch to hit an enemy with.

It also solves the concern @Unelemental raised with regards to how to get the message out IMO. We don't actually have to stay within the Realm of Evening in order to receive the benefits of its increased Prot, so we can use our hyperrapid transit from mastery over Space to be our own messenger.
My doubts were about whether we can separate pieces of our Protected territory and send them somewhere without compromising the Cloak's integrity. That isn't really guaranteed and so might require further research if at all possible within a reasonable timeframe.

It's possible that the Maiden might react to that by immediately rushing towards wherever we went and just destroying them, but in that case she's actually heavily incentivizing these recruitment targets to join up immediately so they'll have boosted Prot before she gets there. And if she subsequently manages to destroy them anyway, she's actually boosting the percentage of the Cloak of Evening that can be considered to have been removed by damage, without actually damaging our core holdings in the Human Sphere at all. So even in that case, she'd actually be playing into our hands even more.

In other words, she can't stop us from getting the message out, she can't stop people from joining up, and she can't even destroy the people who DO join up without playing into our hands one way or another. The strategy creates a lose-lose scenario for the Maiden, and a win-win scenario for us.
Even in my most optimistic assumptions I can't expect a polity of any size to decide within a short timeframe that joining someone else is a good idea, no matter the benefits on offer. Especially not with the threat of annihilation looming over them if the time difference between people starting to think that maybe they should do it after all and actually joining Hunger is anything but instant, with the Maiden destroying them before they commit fully. Rank and other magics can accelerate the process, but by how much?

Another question that hasn't been fully answered is how Decimation is going to be dealt with. Wolfy wants to just turn on the Grail and produce food out of thin air ourselves, but I'm far more pessimistic about this possibility. I expect this expression of the Curse to disable all food production within our domain, no matter its origin, and as such we'll either have to turn on Decimator for the length of time it takes to grow new food or continue to diminish the Realm by hunting for targets there.

While meanwhile Inheritance's best "strategy" is still "uhhh this approach worked out before in a very different situation so let's just assume that it'll work out again here lol." And the thing about that strategy is that it, uh, isn't one. It's just an assumption based on a false premise, namely that because something worked against a very different scenario in the past (as I noted before, the best analogy to the Procession is a more depressing version of Indenture - it never displayed anything resembling the active and creative malice of the Apocryphal) therefore it must be sure to be the best bet to work now.
I'll admit that Inheritance is lacking in tactics right now, since, well, how do you make tactics for infinite Rank of X cardinality? We don't know the limits on what we can do except that the Maiden can still beat us. So we can only make general plans like 'try to keep her within the Sanctum and pile on debuffs, even at the cost of some permanent damage' and 'declare Law against her most likely attack types'. Perhaps we could use our nature as the Doom's personification to attack her too? If we could Curse the Accursed, surely the Maiden can be dealt with too, preferably without turning her into an even worse enemy?

As you see, I don't have the answers here, I merely feel more confident about Inheritance!Hunger's build defeating the Maiden in a head-on confrontation, even at a major cost, simply because this is what this build concentrates on. 🤷‍♂️
 
Perhaps we could use our nature as the Doom's personification to attack her too? If we could Curse the Accursed, surely the Maiden can be dealt with too, preferably without turning her into an even worse enemy?
I suspect that Rank/Ruin fusion can do something similar to Blood Halo's unhealable wounds, though I don't know if it would be escalating. The vigintillion years is mostly about how much we can hold back the ruinous fate of things we interact with, but what would it mean to aggressively accelerate it?
It may just neutralize and stalemate all or part of the Maiden's defensive and/or regen Graces, it may do more and as I said I suspect its a question of powerlevels vs powerlevels, and thats what Inheritance seems to specialize in. She may be vulnerable to mental ruin in particular with no rest.

I can also imagine a different kind of...winning(?). Set the Maiden towards Ruin and scatter our companions to safety, so even if we die we can rely on Companions resurrection with Maiden just dying to ruin meanwhile. I don't really trust this idea myself, but might as well bring it up.

She wouldn't need to destroy the Human Sphere without us there so I don't think thats a problem?

It is difficult to think of what to do with rank and ruin.

Also, I wonder if the Maiden counts as a Hero for Paradox Seal.
 
I like how we are pretending that my strategies don't exist since IH became obviously the best option after we've cracked the QoL enigma.

Oh well.

Lets talk +2.5ISH to our Prot. Like, I know for a fact that most of you guys don't understand how good this is. Consider the following - the most aggressive option in BH using RoW and Cut Through is literally the only thing that can actually go through the last layer. And by "go through" I mean "it can scratch surface of galaxy spanning defense ability". So after having Hunger use two EFBs and one super option to gain +3ISH for an attack, and Hunger is so far the strongest character in terms in pure ability to escalate attack, all we get is 0.000000..0001% of last layer damaged. That is what fully attack focused peer level ability can do - basically nothing. And thats before November Sky nerfing your stats to shit(which can decrease ISH by a decent amount actually) and Hunger himself actually fighting however is challenging him. You guys know I'm not a fan of Prot for a number of reasons, but +2.5ish is just such a fuck off huge number that it outright doesn't matter.

And yeah they can train. Thing is, so can Hunger, and Hunger has flat +2.5ISH bonus on his training when doing Prot. It's basically Progression^ when doing Protection, since it 2.5ish gets added afterwards. So enemy is either so powerful that other two options would just lost instantly, or .. well hyper focus on offense to that level would still see other two options one-shooted so it doesn't matter. Attacks that have enough both enough AoE and ISH to seriously damage last layer of IH are just not something peer level foes can do, at least not without prep/charge and you can counter that with RoW boosting our Prot even more for single instances of damage.

So yeah, it's basically impossible for Maiden to get through 6th layer, let alone 8th, and Hunger not only has Prog+ and Api-, but also has a "hidden" modifier on Prod related Advancements as he has cross-stage modifier on that shit. Get some Praxis Advancements that give us Prot ISH and we are hitting 5.5+. Proc RoW and suddenly we are borderline ISH 7. It is downright becoming impossible for Rihaku to write IH losing, kek.

And, well, IH has actual strategies.
As you see, I don't have the answers here, I merely feel more confident about Inheritance!Hunger's build defeating the Maiden in a head-on confrontation, even at a major cost, simply because this is what this build concentrates on. 🤷‍♂️
But Rihaku already mentioned that we are unlikely to win this(and asked for rerolls for that exact purpose). We can't just vote blindly and except things to work out because, right now, everything indicates that things wont work out.

At this point I have provided enough good IH strategies that I'm confident that it will preform well. I can't say the same for the other options, and it's becoming an issue.
 
But Rihaku already mentioned that we are unlikely to win this(and asked for rerolls for that exact purpose). We can't just vote blindly and except things to work out because, right now, everything indicates that things wont work out.

At this point I have provided enough good IH strategies that I'm confident that it will preform well. I can't say the same for the other options, and it's becoming an issue.
Any option could win now and he didn't specify whether it applied to all options. I have trouble believing that she could overcome this Hunger's Shattering Blow.
 
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