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Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

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    • [X] The Negotiated End

    [X] Blind the Thief
    [X] Cloak the Ways Between

    I'm not sure whether I want Cloak The Ways or Blind The Thief more. On the one hand, Blind the Thief could let us profit massively if we take a lot of Cannibal land. That's good.

    On the other hand, Cloak the Ways -- for all that it's described as a "Lose Less, rather than Win More" option -- has a simple thing going for it: we have no real good leads for how the hell to start fixing it otherwise. Not... not permanently or severely, I mean. We have ways to mitigate it; we can build up our defenses a bunch, we can train our troops a ton, we can try to investigate and research the dimensional phenomena that lets them travel here, we can try to do a bunch of complicated diplomacy stuff in order to allow our best good seeds and promising disciples to take shelter in other Clans or Sects (maybe, presumably) but those are all... not very good ways. Those are very reactive or passive ways of "dealing with" it -- because fundamentally, we are never going to be strong enough to go over to the 5th Sea and solve the problem from that end of things. Whereas we do have ways to address the Poor Wealth Curse; take more land or demand more tribute. It is a Curse that we can find ways to deal with. Whereas the Trials... we kind of just have to take it, and take it forever. The Poor Wealth Curse sucks a lot though. And being able to lessen it here and now, when we are poised to suddenly gain a lot of land, is very darn tempting! It's a strong step forward! It's just... Eh.

    So, that's why I'm voting the way I'm voting. Now, to express my hesitance for the Righteous Sect path (or New Sect option, though that one seems dead in the water right now so eh).



    I'm not so comfortable with "The New Sect" nor "Become Righteous Sect" because both shift things to social and soft-power conflicts -- arenas that we aren't so great at. I'd actually prefer it if we could build bridges to the Strength Purity Sect and other Righteous Powers over a large period of time, after having the benefit of lessening our Curse of Impoverishment or Trials banes via this Boon vote, rather than doing it all at once but without the benefit of reducing some of our other maluses.

    New Sect is a bit risky because the Strength Purity Sect's favoring us is only for as long as we provide them benefits and help them out; they do not innately like us more than Jingshen somehow. It means that if Jingshen ever managed to, for example, somehow provide an alternate pathway to the healing oasis? A pathway that did not lead through Golden Devil Clan lands? The Righteous Sects would just go with that new path, simple enough.

    And meanwhile, we have to place a level of priority on diplomancing the New Sect; because otherwise, they side with the Jingshen Clan if it comes to a war. And Righteous Sects only need a good cassus belli when warring on other Righteous Sects. When warring with Demonic Sects... eh.

    Which means that New Sect transforms the battle into one of "Make sure the Jingshen do not manage to sway the sect fully to their side, otherwise if/when the Sect ever gets a Nascent Soul (or Jingshen gets rich enough that they get a 3rd Nascent Soul) the Golden Devils are screwed because then Jingshen can just beat us.

    The "Become a Righteous Power" path is... well, something like that, except more-so. Sure, it removes the Jingshen Clan's ability to dogpile us militarily if they ever get a 3rd Nascent Soul... but it does so by moving the conflict into a new arena. One that Jingshen and the Seven Divine Sabers Palace are more experienced at.

    It also does say that it weakens us moderately militarily. "A moderate reduction in combat strength." Which is not great. Even if the Cannibals are gone.

    One problem with this is that it's not just "Okay, we presumably get to Grandfather in those cultivators that still use Poisons and Sacrificial Techniques and stuff for now, and we just don't get new Dirty Tricks Dao Cultivators afterwards."

    Because we don't just have "Poison-using Cultivators." We have entire families and lineages and (minor c) clans that have been devoted to using Poisons and Sacrifice and Dirty Tricks for millennia.

    Clans and lineages and libraries that will now be forced to shutter their research and shelve their library books, as suddenly their way of contributing to the Clan is now proscribed.


    Another problem with choosing the Righteous Power path is that...

    ... We don't get rid of some of our other weaknesses at the same time.

    We don't get the benefit of Blind the Thief or Cloak the Ways or Lightning from a Cloud.

    Which means that we still remain poor, still have deadly tribulations, and still get our good seeds literally headhunted once a century.

    But still need to contribute to the Great War against the Demonic Altar Sect and Noble Knowledge Sect. While being somewhat nerfed in combat power, too. Oh, and the Devil Bees are still around too. Now on the other hand, I suppose this also allows us to try to call for help from the other Righteous Sects... but. Doing so is probably part of the Soft Power stuff. So... Eh.
     
    Alectai said:
    ...

    The Curse of Impoverishment is also a 4 point penalty!

    Just because it doesn't have one big manifestation doesn't mean that losing roughly 50-60% of all possible income we can get isn't devastating!
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    That has been weakened that has been subverted that has been countered. So I would argue that I need citation that it's still four point.
     
    Daniel14541 said:
    That has been weakened that has been subverted that has been countered.
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    It still works at 100% effectiveness until it breaks, 'Weakened' just means that we can see that it's starting to strain.

    It has been in this state since the start of play

    So unless you're arguing that a 4 point penalty was just magically reduced before we even did anything, your argument doesn't hold water.
     
    Alectai said:
    It still works at 100% effectiveness until it breaks, 'Weakened' just means that we can see that it's starting to strain.

    It has been in this state since the start of play

    So unless you're arguing that a 4 point penalty was just magically reduced before we even did anything, your argument doesn't hold water.
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    Nope no it hasn't it's been weakening remember! That is explicitly so on our character sheet! So yes now you have to prove your point. It outright says it on our character sheet

    You don't just get to claim that the author doesn't mean what the author wrote.
     
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    Daniel14541 said:
    Nope no it hasn't it's been weakening remember! That is explicitly so on our character sheet! So yes now you have to prove your point. It outright says it on our character sheet
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    ...

    From the literal first post, when we first got the character sheet, it said that

    Are you literally going "Didn't keep copies of every iteration of the character sheet to prove me wrong? CHECKMATE!"
     
    How do they determine the number of slots in the trial anyway? Is the gateway automatically adjusted to our numbers, or is it something that those in charge of the expedition determine?
     
    [X] What are the qualities of a righteous man?
    [X] Walk in the Light, Cloaked by Shadow

    [X] The Negotiated End
    [X] Blind the Thief
     
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    Daniel14541 said:
    And you seem to be forgetting entirely that they have different different levels that they are hitting us at the trials are hitting us for a 4 level harm. Meanwhile the thief has been hitting us for a much reduced level considering that are billed seems to focus on being able to subvert it what would formations and all the other things we've worked out over the years on top of the fact that he's weakening!
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    I mean, the penalty being alleviated doesnt really matter

    occipitallobe said:
    Not all curses or weakness are removed. Some are merely downgraded. As a rough guide, however, each bonus is worth approximately 2 Shinies in terms of power from the early game Clan construction.
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    No matter what we choose, the bonus is two shinies worth
     
    @Alectai I think the main disagreement is based on framing: there's no easily viable method to weakening the Trials, whereas the Wealth Curse has a seemingly straightforward method to grind it down. Thus, most voters believe the opportunity cost of easier Trials is better than the synergistic combination of territorial gains + weaker Wealth curse.

    Kaboomatic said:
    I mean, the penalty being alleviated doesnt really matter


    No matter what we choose, the bonus is two shinies worth
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    It does matter, one bonus synergizes with land gains, the other does not. Thus, we can squeeze out more than 2 Shinies worth of benefits with Blind Thief.
     
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    Resonant said:
    I think the main disagreement is based on framing: there's no easily viable method to weakening the Trials, whereas the Wealth Curse has a seemingly straightforward method to grind it down. Thus, most voters believe the opportunity cost of easier Trials is better than the synergistic combination of territorial gains + weaker Wealth curse.
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    The problem is that the Wealth Curse works until it doesn't, and it doesn't fade. Trials can be mitigated and has already been set as a Major Plot Arc from the start of play.

    We can use the wealth we gain from mitigating the wealth curse to further mitigate the trials.
     
    Alectai said:
    ...

    From the literal first post, when we first got the character sheet, it said that

    Are you literally going "Didn't keep copies of every iteration of the character sheet to prove me wrong? CHECKMATE!"
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    If you're going to make an assertion like that absolutely! After all you're claiming something. You also seem to be ignoring the parts of my argument that say formations excetera have been subverting it. That it has been countering it. A large part of our build is focused on being able to counter this detriment. Do the trials get a similar level of countering no did they get countered somewhat sure. But that is only because we are so great at fighting. There has been no new development in weakening this consistent 30% debuff every hundred years. And yes I will say the wealth cap is less of an issue. Remember our people take time to grow after all.
     
    Daniel14541 said:
    If you're going to make an assertion like that absolutely! After all you're claiming something. You also seem to be ignoring the parts of my argument that say formations excetera have been subverting it. That it has been countering it. A large part of our build is focused on being able to counter this detriment. Do the trials get a similar level of countering no did they get countered somewhat sure. But that is only because we are so great at fighting. There has been no new development in weakening this consistent 30% debuff every hundred years. And yes I will say the wealth cap is less of an issue. Remember our people take time to grow after all.
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    There's been many developments though! Early on, the trials were culls on par with the one we just got, now, when we prepare properly and don't get unusual things happening, we're looking at a more 15-20% cull.

    The Wealth Curse meanwhile works at 100% effectiveness until it breaks.

    But fine, since you refuse to take my word for it in favor of being smug.

    @occipitallobe

    Could you please weigh in on how the Curse of Impoverishment works?
     
    [X] What are the qualities of a righteous man? (Can only be taken with "Walk in the Light, Cloaked by Shadow" option from the following post)
    [X] Walk in the Light, Cloaked by Shadow (Can only be taken in conjunction with "What are the qualities of a righteous man?" from the prior post)

    As Alectai put it, this has the chance of making Jingshen go demonic out of pure rage.

    Even if it's just a 1% chance, I'm taking it. Jingshen can go choke on a spirit stone. :V
     
    I mean, under the framing that the trial's strength has been mitigated due to our choices decreasing the number of deaths suffered, the same could be said that the curse of impoverishment has been mitigated because our choices has caused our total income to go up. It's not a differentiator between the two curses.

    What matters is what is a more effective choice in the short, medium, and long terms.
     
    ... I'm coming around to favoring the Wealth thing over the Trials thing.

    Money lets us attempt to address all sorts of our problems and weaknesses and challenges.

    Money lets us afford to build all the defenses for the Trials. Money lets us afford to build all the defenses against the Devil Bees. Money lets us afford to raise a lot more Cultivators. Money lets us afford to repair the Technique Palace in a much sooner time-frame than previously expected. Money lets us recover from the century Trials, and any war we get into, much faster.

    And money lets us contest with the Jingshen Clan! Because their big thing is wealth and diplomacy. We can afford to get into bribery competitions with the Jingshen, because we'd have the money for it. Or we could afford to lower tariffs a bit if needed.

    Or we could afford to contest the Jingshen in the area that they are trying to use to obtain dominance; namely, they are trying to win the economic victory. Money will let us avoid losing there so easily.

    Money lets us start recovering from the 3 wars and 1 mega-devastating Trial we had in the past 8 turns as of starting.


    The lands of the Blood Battle Cannibal Sect land were not heavily mined, because Blood Path cultivators can't use Spirit Stones. So they would only have mined Spirit Stones in order to use as trade goods. Soo...

    ... All that still means that we need to win on the field of battle that is negotiation with the Jingshen Clan for the Cannibal Sect's lands. But. Even if we get half the Cannibal's lands? Manuel would be very happy.

    Now imagine how happy Manuel will be if he gets half the lands and the Curse of Impoverishment does not kick in.

    Manuel would be ecstatic.

    ... Also. I guess I hadn't thought about it, but...

    The Jingshen Clan would not be expecting the Golden Devils' poverty curse to suddenly be weakened all of a sudden.

    @occipitallobe how well known are the curses or problems of the Golden Devil Clan? That is, does Old Jingshen know that "Ah yeah, the Golden Devils have terrible luck in prospecting or extracting tribute easily/profitably; whenever they got a new territory, the fields and wells and mines tended to dry up." If this is a known thing, then... Jingshen will be going into negotiations expecting the Golden Devils to not get as much benefit out of the lands.

    Though to be fair, Manuel might not be expecting this as much himself... ... Then again. It is the Shadow of heaven that is doing this. So if anybody would notice, it would be Manuel.
     
    [X] The Negotiated End
    [X] Cloak the Ways Between
    [X] Even Lightning comes from a Cloud

    wealth is nice but I prefer reduced attrition
     
    I'm convinced. If we're nabbing 50%+ of the cannibal land then fuck it, let's get that money. Will go back and edit my vote.
     
    ... On the other hand, is the Wealth Curse has an expiration date, then... ><

    It might be a bit greedy, but it might be reasonable to tackle a Bane that we can't easily tackle... ... That sort of argument is pretty tempting and convincing to people. That idea of 'Use the Boon on handling something we don't have a clear solution for, like Deadly Tribulation or the Trials, rather than something that has an expiration date if we work hard on it.'

    Though, Wealth does have the synergy with grabbing lands, so. Still a strong choice.

    But this is why I'm voting for both Cloak the Ways and Blind the Thief. Though honestly, that sort of implies that I should probably be voting for Less Deadly Tribulations too! Because it means getting more advanced cultivators faster and more securely; with less wealth expended. Less Good Seeds needing to spend 3 whole turns on grabbing Tribulation Boost treasures.

    More Cultivators breaking out of the Qi Condensation bracket -- as, Qi Condensation is the stage with the biggest lifespan barrier, which means it'll be the one that is most impacted by it. Numbers-wise, that is.

    Ascension to Core Formation is also important! Easier times for us getting our Core Formation Elders back up and running? Tempting.

    ... And also, of course... It means that our chances of getting another Nascent Soul in the long run is better. Which, well, is fairly long-run. But. It is a boost and a thing. And the sheer security of having and knowing that it won't all end with Old Gold...
     
    wrecksalot said:
    We've been spending wealth like water to replace our Core Formation losses from the last Trial, and we've just gotten people whose advancement has been crippled and a bunch of borrowed strength.
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    Yes?

    Because we were facing imminent war against our immediate rivals

    Are you trying to say that it hasnt paid off handsomely thus far or something?
     
    yeah the desert land isnt great actually so maybe setting up a new sect with a weak nascent soul and having them pay taxes for the stuff they send back to the plains is a thing consider as a solution people. It also doesnt upgrade the jingshen is another bonus for that. It actually wont cost us anything and we should be able to gain more income from taxes . Dont want to poke jingshen without atleast a second nascent soul to be honest , maybe even a third ...

    I think large scale for the 1 million word bonus so im thinking wealth would be best altough i wouldnt mind cloaking and making the enemy numbers each century be less altough they might compensate with even more elite disciples maybe as a reaction to this.
     
    Aaaah damnit, should we really be giving Jingshen anything though? I'm very unkeen on that. Helping them get their economic engine rolling is very risky business. The second they get another Nascent Soul we're probably fucked, after all. New Sect plus easier trials is a lot less risky even if it doesn't come with the huge economic windfall. Shit, this is really tough...
     
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