Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

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The problem with Manuel is that every time we use him in a roll with risk we risk a game over, making him stronger will reduce the risk of him dying but not remove it and as such not actually remove the problem, while choosing to reduce tribulation strength will reduce the difficulty to advance to nascent soul and might allow us to another nascent soul earlier.

We don't have anyone who's even near Nascent Soul, an even an early Nascent Soul probably wouldn't be enough to ensure our survival. There is a reason Old Gold had the make the jump to Mid-Nascent Soul.

And even if by some miracle we could get strong enough a successor, they'd wouldn't be a wily old fox like us and would get played by all the Old Monsters out there. Our young successor wouldn't even get decent advisors since they all died.

No, our clan's only hope is that Manuel survives. If Manuel can grow the clan, there will be plenty of opportunities for juniors to gain strength. More land means more cultivator and more ressources, we survived with what we had, we'll thrive with the added land. In time, we'll nurture a successor but realisticly, the future of the quest is in Manuel's hands.
 
[X] The Negotiated End
I've been persuaded that between Jingshen outright getting new land and a new Righteous sect, the former is more manageable than the latter.
 
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We don't have anyone who's even near Nascent Soul,
We do have one great circle cultivator, our elder of war (who is 1000+ years old), he was noted for not having the potential to reach nascent soul but I the tribulation strength is wakened he might have a chance If Manuel takes an action to lecture him.

an even an early Nascent Soul probably wouldn't be enough to ensure our survival. There is a reason Old Gold had the make the jump to Mid-Nascent Soul.
Strengthening Manuel wouldn't ensure our survival either but getting another nascent soul means that if Manuel were to die we have a chance to come back.

And even if by some miracle we could get strong enough a successor, they'd wouldn't be a wily old fox like us and would get played by all the Old Monsters out there. Our young successor wouldn't even get decent advisors since they all died.
Not necessarily true, those that rise to nascent soul don't have to young and even if they are its not greatened that they would be played left and right especially if Manuel trains them.
 
[X] Cloak the Ways Between
Really set on this one. The Trials are our biggest problem as a sect; every five turns, we either spend a tonne of resources on turtling up, or we take a serious hit. It forces us to play defence and discourages risk taking. This option starts remedying that and buys us breathing room to recover. Honestly can't see a reason not to take it.

[] The New Sect
Less sure of this choice. I'm voting for it right now because SPS are well-disposed to us, and we can take advantage of that at least initially to act as a bulwark against the Jingshen. Heck, if we throw some diplomatic actions at it next turn, we can probably make allies out of them, and influence their sect culture in beneficial ways (at least theoretically). It's a solid defensive choice, and I think it's a better call than making a deal with Old Cannibal because it doesn't potentially poison our diplomatic relations with other sects and clans later on. We make less gains, but we take less losses. Thing is, it doesn't *fix* anything, it just pushes the problem away for a while until future-us has to deal with it. I think that's the best option, given how we're built as a clan, though. We're very good at defensive plays and sieges.

Changing my vote.
 
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The options I don't like :

[ ] The New Sect

Means sacrificing our own advantage just to ensure that Jingshen gets nothing. I can see "The negociated end" netting us at least half of the land while "The new sect" gets us a pittance perhaps not even enough to pay for the war. Well, there is even a case to be made that Jingshen should PAY US for any land they take, seeing how we did all the work.

Let's not sacrifice our deserved territorial gains just to make Jingshen weaker.

[ ] Cloak the Ways Between

Is kind of lackluster, I mean, the trials are already weakening we only have to hold on. At least the tribulation debuff mean more growth for our elites (which would mean the trials hurt less relatively) as the tribulations contain more vital energy it means our cultivator not only have better chances to survive, but also higher raw power.

[ ] All that is necessary for evil to succeed...

Is just Yikes.

Righteous powers are sure to find out sooner than later when they see us HELPING the Cannibal take over the Bees. It puts us on collision course with the righteous powers and discards any goodwill we might have accrued with our collaboration with the Strength Purity Sect and our wars with demonic powers. Even all of the Cannibal's lands won't help when a coalition comes knocking.

Blood path grows fast, this is the option that involves making our worst enemy stronger to very dubious gains except to be a monster to the Jingshen.

EDIT :

We do have one great circle cultivator, our elder of war (who is 1000+ years old), he was noted for not having the potential to reach nascent soul but I the tribulation strength is wakened he might have a chance If Manuel takes an action to lecture him.

Our elder of war is dying. He's our ONLY great circle cultivator and chances that any great core cultivator ascends are very slim. We just don't have the ressources to try and have him ascend right now and he'll be dead in one or two turns. Even if we get the ressources to have him try and ascend, it's probably something like 80 % to 90 % chances he dies (most do after all, even in sects without stronger tribulations, and he's no great talent so his chances shouldn't be HIGHER than average). Trying to have the war elder ascend is much more of a gamble than to try to have Manuel survive, it could beggar the clan for a 1 in 5 chance of success at best.

No, Manuel is what we have for the forseeable future. Making him stronger reduces chances of critical failure.


Strengthening Manuel wouldn't ensure our survival either but getting another nascent soul means that if Manuel were to die we have a chance to come back.

It will take a long time to get another nascent soul anyway. Even if we luck out massively, I can't see it happening before 5-10 turns, but a more realistic take would be 10-30 turns. A lot of things can happen in such a time and Manuel being stronger for all that duration would make a hell of a difference (a stronger Clan Head might also mean better opportunities for our juniors).

Not necessarily true, those that rise to nascent soul don't have to young and even if they are its not greatened that they would be played left and right especially if Manuel trains them.

Our only other really old Clan member is dying. How many cultivators over 500 years do we have left, if any. Getting another old monster would take at least 20-30 turns... the whole quest is not even on turn 10.
 
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I don't know how such stronger we'd get from "Step into the light", but we already are decently able to oppose Jingshen. If we get stronger (god forbid if we get late nascent soul level strength), our negociating position with Jingshen becomes quite interesting. Since "The negociated end" seems to mean discussions between only us and Jingshen for the Cannibal lands.

Substantially. Manuel is a cunning old monster who plans things out centuries in advance, but he's genuinely bad in a scrap for his cultivation level - he can't fight long knock-down fights so he needs to set the stage to be able to win.

Being exceptional at setting the stage and being able to take fights is a substantial - massive upgrade to his combat capabilities.

Say @occipitallobe is the clan status information threadmark is up to date?

I, uh.

I don't think so. I might actually put that on my turn agenda along with 'write this darn Python code so it spits out Fates from a CSV' - I might transfer the Clan info into a spreadsheet with per-turn information on there as well.

Wait a minute... I just realized a possible consequence or side-effect of this. Namely... What does this do to the enmity the Seven Divine Sabers Palace have with us?

@occipitallobe does us becoming a Righteous Clan curtail the ways that they can strike out at us?

Are the Seven Divine Sabers limited to 'only' fucking with us on the level that 2 Righteous Sects/Clans can fuck with each other?

In other words, does this mean that picking this option means that the Seven Divine Sabers can't screw us over 100% AS badly as before?

(Or does it mean that the Divine Sabers start trying to kick us out of the Righteous Sects, or start trying to undermine us, or start trying to nickel-and-dime us for everything possible, or what?)

The former. Righteous Sects tend to fight in those passive-aggressive 'I'll get my disciple to accidentally maim your disciple whoops haha it was an accident in the tournament he didn't mean it lol' ways as opposed to just going out and murdering one another en masse.
 
Substantially. Manuel is a cunning old monster who plans things out centuries in advance, but he's genuinely bad in a scrap for his cultivation level - he can't fight long knock-down fights so he needs to set the stage to be able to win.

Being exceptional at setting the stage and being able to take fights is a substantial - massive upgrade to his combat capabilities.

@occipitallobe

Am I right that we might parley that improved personal might into a stronger bargaining position versus Jingshen (via a spar or something) or would that not enter the equation due to us hiding our strength?
 
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[X] The New Sect
[X] Even Lightning comes from a Cloud

Open to being convinced to switch vote to the righteous combo.
 
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I, uh.

I don't think so. I might actually put that on my turn agenda along with 'write this darn Python code so it spits out Fates from a CSV' - I might transfer the Clan info into a spreadsheet with per-turn information on there as well.
@occipitallobe do we have one or two great circle core formation cultivators, because I remember that after the trial we had one left but as far as I can see (looking at Manuel age and the timer of the trials) the status page is updated to the end of the 6 turn and the start of the 7 turn, so did we get another one? and if we did can we have some information on them?
 
What's our long-term plan? I'd like to start by taking over the entire desert. Neither we nor Jingshen need to worry about the cannibal clan, the three-way balance is gone. We're far more martially inclined than the Jingshen are, we are able to nibble away at their lands, whatever we decide at this meeting. We're just deciding on what we'll have without fighting.

Do we want to just live peacefully? Bring in the new sect, we'll have better neighbors than before, we'll stay nicely balanced. Become Righteous, work on eliminating the Abyssal Bee sect.

Do we want war and conquest, a return to our battle against the heavens? If we want slow and steady progress, negotiate with the Jingshen over how much land we'll each get, then start working on taking their land. If we want progress in the next century, cut a deal with Old Cannibal and press the advantage.

I'm happy with
[X] All that is necessary for evil to succeed...
Or
[X] The Negotiated End
 
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[X] What are the qualities of a righteous man?
[X] Walk in the Light, Cloaked by Shadow


It seems like this combination would basically eliminate the threat of persecution and tribulations altogether. That would be enough to be considered a "good end" in its own right. Although joining another sect isn't great, it's much, much better than the threat of looming extinction, and we can work our way up again over the centuries and millennia to come. We'll have time, after all, since we'll be able to grow that much more.

This option gets us security and a solid foundation to work from in future, and even without us doing anything else would basically halt our slow, attritional decline outright. Combined with Manuel's political acumen, and the talent of our good seeds, and we'll be able to do so, so much more.
 
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The options I don't like :

[ ] The New Sect

Means sacrificing our own advantage just to ensure that Jingshen gets nothing. I can see "The negociated end" netting us at least half of the land while "The new sect" gets us a pittance perhaps not even enough to pay for the war. Well, there is even a case to be made that Jingshen should PAY US for any land they take, seeing how we did all the work.

Let's not sacrifice our deserved territorial gains just to make Jingshen weaker.

I see your point, but it requires us to out-diplomacy the Jingshen. *Without* the Strength Purity Sect around to referee. Jingshen are social spec, after all - we can't guarantee we'll get at least half of that land. It'll also accelerate our rivalry with them, because there'll be no-one else in the desert; just us and them. With a third sect, we get a new status quo that is markedly better than what we've had previously, and we can make strong diplomatic pushes toward the new guys who will already have a certain amount of goodwill for us as is by being descended from the Strength Purity sect. You're right, the rewards aren't as strong, but it's a small, sustainable victory we can take advantage of in the future. That feels very Manuel to me.

[ ] Cloak the Ways Between

Is kind of lackluster, I mean, the trials are already weakening we only have to hold on. At least the tribulation debuff mean more growth for our elites (which would mean the trials hurt less relatively) as the tribulations contain more vital energy it means our cultivator not only have better chances to survive, but also higher raw power.

...I think I may have missed something here. Since when have the trials been weakening?
 
Is it? We seem to be losing the long game. We don't grow as quickly or as easily as other sects, we don't earn as much money as other sects, and we get harrowed every century, a inhibitor that other sects don't have to deal with.
We are defense focused and have been around for ages and ages. If anything the longevity of the clan shows that we can play long games. We've hit a low point, true, but a lot of our gambles have been about increasing our long term gains. It's time to capitalize on that and not try and take more than we can bite.
 
[ ] Cloak the Ways Between

Those who stepped between worlds, who walked the path of slaughter. It couldn't hide the world, but it could twist the space, make it harder to get to. More expensive, more difficult. Less of the worldwalkers shall come to burn out the servants of shadow. Protect them, hide them, cloak them. Weaken the butchers, snuff out their torches as they hunted in the dark.

[ ] Even Lightning comes from a Cloud

Heaven burns with righteous wrath as the invaders seek to seize strength, lightning from a clear sky. Now the lightning must come from clouds, and the clouds shall cloak them. As they seize power Heaven shall prove still their enemy, but less so. Let them rise up. Let them all rise, like clouds rising from the earth to shadow all things.
Both are NEAT and the most appealing to me. But if i gotta pick, i pick weaker trials since the trials drain us of wealth and manpower and basically kills the turn after it as a pure recovery turn.

Regarding the offered options, i'm rather meh to all since Old Cannibal survives them all except for the war to the knife option which we can't take because trials are coming up....

@occipitallobe Regarding A New Sect, do we get absolutely none of the Cannibal lands? No grounds for negotiation?
 
Regarding A New Sect, do we get absolutely none of the Cannibal lands? No grounds for negotiation?
I mean the option has this line:
"We cannot of course let one power seize all this land. Let the Golden Devils have their due, and perhaps a quarter or a third of the Cannibal land. In return, the remainder of the land shall be granted to a new Righteous Sect, the Spirit Oasis Sect. We shall set up a new Sect in the desert, one under the auspice of the Strength Purity Sect."
So unless this is lying, I would assume we would get a quarter to a third of the land, but the best would go to the new sect.
 
We are defense focused and have been around for ages and ages. If anything the longevity of the clan shows that we can play long games. We've hit a low point, true, but a lot of our gambles have been about increasing our long term gains. It's time to capitalize on that and not try and take more than we can bite.
Being able to barely survive does not equal being good at playing the long game. I agree with not biting off more than we can chew, but there's still the decision to be made whether we want to focus on quick gains or slow growth. Since I think our growth is slower than that of our competitors, I lean more towards quick gains until we have good potential growth. Say, if we manage to take over the desert, we'd be the sole supplier of spirit stones in the region and we'd have good fortifications to keep it. In that situation, I wouldn't mind hunkering down, because we'd be gaining wealth faster than our opponents.
 
The Hong Xuan Clan
Sit, junior sisters and brothers.

You are Hong Xuan, as am I.

I am Hong Xuan Fang Zhi, a member of our mighty Clan, and tasked with your introductory lesson on the geography of the lands which we rule. Those of you who are found to have quick minds and strong talents might find themselves able to attend the Vast Choosing - or the Flood Tournament, as some have called it.

We are a mighty lineage, stretching back over five thousand years.

Of course, not the mightiest, but only fools look back on the past and concern themselves that their ancestors were not kings over all. We are mighty compared to most, and that a few are greater than us is merely reality.

Remember, the Golden Devils rule us. Oh, not formally. We are named allies, and merely pay for assistance in matters such as security and trade, tariffs levied on our goods and mercenary payments made, and so on. It is a light yoke, but it is a yoke. Do not offend them, or unduly insult them. When you understand the history of our people, you will understand it is a history entwined with the Devil conquest of the region, a master we would prefer to live without but cannot stand apart from.

Still, understanding will come in time. For now, a basic primer on the lands you reside in.

The map.

We will go around the varied territories, understanding our powers from the perspective of an outsider. For until you succeed in the Flood Tournament, you are truly only ever an outsider, no matter your name.

If you enter our lands from the north, you will firstly pass the Towers of Ruin.

Our grandest defensive work, funneling the rage and power of the Watchful Father and his children into a magnificent line of towers, pouring fire on all who might attack us. Even the Golden Devils when conquering these lands saw the depth of our defenses and preferred to leave us be, merely exacting tribute rather than ruining their forces further.

From there you will go south, to Pyre City. It is named such as it watches over all our volcanic territories to the west, and those who work the mighty Fire-Arrays are located there. Hot and unpleasant at the best of times, the volcanoes oft spit out Spirit Stones, and the groaning, shifting earth reveals new lodes of such quite often. Pyre City is the heart of our wealth, the true seat of power. Three million mortals such as yourselves live among our territories, yet only a hundred thousand strive in Pyre City. It is not much of a place for mortals, and those who live there tend to die early deaths, trading life for wealth. If you fail in the Choosing, perhaps you will be sent there.

The Watchful Father is the key spirit, the great animating soul of the volcano there. Our friendship with the Father allows us access to his bounty and power. From him we direct arrays of energy to the Towers of Ruin, and only cultivators who are nearly the Second Tier - what the Devils call the Seventh Heavenstage - can go there and survive. The Qi is potent and destructive, yet directing it has made us the second-most powerful Clan in the territories under the Golden Devils, eclipsed only by our masters.

The Sleeping Brothers are weaker, tired, old. From them we gain a great deal of Spirit Stones, and they are survivable even by mortals, for a time. Eventually the sulfur and gases will overwhelm and kill a mortal, but that is their lot.

The Weeping Children spit out all manner of wealth, yet are tremendously dangerous. Only condemned men and pigmen go there, but much wealth is made.

To the south further along the Scorpion Road is Seven Tourneys City. The Choosing is held there. Each year, seven tournaments, great contests held to establish the skill and worth of each Hong Xuan scion. You are trained and taught before them, but if you fail - you may find yourself mining among gases and heat. Only the finest and hardest-working can carry on the Hong Xuan name. For those who fail completely, you will be stripped of your Hong Xuan lineage, made mere peasants, though your children will be given one last chance to return. For those who perform well, you can find excellent skilled work - from smiths to warriors, all come from the tournaments. The greatest of you may walk the path of immortality, as I have done. Five hundred thousand mortals live there, the greatest city outside of the Isles.

Then west, to the Grand Stairwell. Our grand creation. Nearly fifty li in length, and wide enough for six wagons to pass side-by-side along the slope, with two staircases for those who walk either side. Much wealth, much labor is spent maintaining it, and it is honorable work. One who finds themselves to be a worthy craftsman in the Choosing may become a builder of the Grand Stairwell, a truly honorable trade.

We will return to the Isles lastly, but for now, we shall continue around.

Sunrise City contains two hundred thousand mortals, and is largely a city kept alive by trade. The road by Pyre City is dangerous, as fire-spirits and rockmen emerge from the earth to kill without thought, and for those who are not walking the path of immortality, taking the other road is wiser. It is a mere waystation on a road, and is taxed well enough to justify its existence. A poor performance but not a complete failure in the Tournament might be sent there to work as a trader, or a laborer, even.

The Low Forge is a work of some brilliance. It took four Golden Core Elders to build and maintain it, but it takes advantage of a massive amount of waste heat piped here through arrays from the towers. The heat is used to build truly impressive feats, mainly massive castings of iron and the like. The waste Qi is also infused into weapons and armor - though it is not overly strong, we are able to produce enough Spears of Flame to equip every immortal, as well as many skilled mortals.

Second-to-last are the benighted Pigmen Encampments. They are our servants, and we pay them for the tasks they undertake. Far stronger than a man, and more resilient besides, they are slow and ponderous, but excellent at difficult labor such as mining. Many die in the mines each year, and they serve as laborers across the entirety of Hong Xuan territory. They are the reason those who bear the Hong Xuan name are not given over to such terrible labor, and only those who fail in the tournament are sent to die in such a way, to remove the shame from our glorious clan. There are around eight hundred thousand or so pigmen, and they live everywhere. Of course, they are not permitted to walk the path of immortality or bear the name Hong Xuan.

Of course, you all live in the Hong Xuan Isles. The mightiest constructs in the world. Kept aloft by a direct link to the Watchful Father and his many sons, fire-Qi keeping the souls of the islands awake and our people far above the ground. Spirit Stones are used to help manoeuvre the isles, and they are green with growth, herbs and crops growing en masse here. One and a half million of us live here, though of course not all bear the name Hong Xuan. After all, we do need servants and laborers, woodsmen and farmers. It is this construct that left the Golden Devils unwilling to conquer us - to break through our towers and lay siege to our islands as they were weak and battered from two great wars? Unthinkable! And so we signed the Treaty of Misty Hill, that even today governs our rights and relations with the Golden Devils.

Now, you have your history books. Begin reading. I will return in three hours and test you on what material you have learned. If any of you find this too boring, or would prefer to ignore me... well, you can enter the Tournament without my guidance, if you wish. It would be my pleasure to see such lazy fools lose their name.

Well, what are you waiting for? Read!
 
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[X] The New Sect
I have been conviced of the necessity and helpfullness of the new sect. In time they could become staunch allies, which we can rely on to help us in times of need and negotiate, should diplomancy with the Strength Purity Sect for example break down. @Mochinator
[X] Cloak the Ways Between
 
I mean the option has this line:

So unless this is lying, I would assume we would get a quarter to a third of the land, but the best would go to the new sect.
Excellent point. In that case, that choice appeals to me.

My main reasoning being that having them as a ally or even a non-aggression treaty allows us to focus our defenses on just the Jingshen who aren't in that good a standing with the righteous sects. Like, one of the reasons they're accepted is that besides their wealth, they're the only non-demonic sect in the desert.

With an option backed by the Strength Purity, i don't see why the Jingshen would maintain the same status in the eyes of the Righteous sects. I mean i think our ties with the Strength Purity are pretty Ok, they might have a very very very slight favor towards us since we made things cheaper for them. I'm all for Closer ties.

Also, considering it's the option that ensures the Jingshen don;t get to do a round 2 of stealing our War Spoils against Old Cannibal i like it!

[X] The New Sect
-[X] Suggest that the lands be granted to the Flood Dragon Gang and raise them from Wanderers into a Clan/Sect.

[X] Cloak the Ways Between
 
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If we gamble on Old Cannibal killing the Devil Bees, we get a large amount of territory, whether we win or lose.

And I assume that territory would go some ways towards weakening the wealth curse in itself?

Though this is definitely the Greed option. Amd we've already gambled too much of our short term forces I think.
 
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