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A Simple Transaction I

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Zampano said:
Everything here is good but only one option can win.
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Just get into another 5 pick fight and farm Heroic Upgrades.

EDIT: There is a typo - it is crippling debt but I am too lazy to fix it.

EDIT2: Shit I forgot a joke I had to put - "A team loyal to the Lord protector sneak up to the now abandon earth tower to do the last deed that their perished Lord asked them to do in case of death - clear his spellbook history"
 
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Wolfy said:
I'm actually looking forward to that ability where we link our allies to our blood, making them immortal as long as we live.
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If only an Armament was restricted to physical harm.

runeblue360 said:
Moreover, this is also power that works to protect our Vanguard, which is pretty important considering the powerscales we're currently playing at would vaporise them instantly otherwise.
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And as a sidenote on the Vanguard, Adorie at 21+'s would be protected as well as Hunger is, if not better considering her Shroud. That's extremely important if we want to take her into battle against. The fact that it'll give Aobaru some coverage as well is pretty good, considering he's currently at the fun and spicy z e r o.
 
Sharkey_smt said:
EDIT: There is a typo - it is crippling debt but I am too lazy to fix it.
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also: Planetary armament -> Plenary

runeblue360 said:
If only an Armament was restricted to physical harm.
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I R I D E S C E N C E
And as a sidenote on the Vanguard, Adorie at 21+'s would be protected as well as Hunger is, if not better considering her Shroud. That's extremely important if we want to take her into battle against. The fact that it'll give Aobaru some coverage as well is pretty good, considering he's currently at the fun and spicy z e r o.
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Aobaru's loyalty to Hunger might be higher than his relationship +s indicate. After all, he seems to be trying to keep up with the rate of Progression, which is either inspiring or demoralizing...
 
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Unrelated to the current discussion:
Holy Shit: To stand against the wielder is to know only defeat. The wielder's enemies know when they are beaten. Double the wielder's Charisma and Manipulation against characters individually weaker than him. Innate awareness of the character's strength penalizes any attempts to form organizations or conspiracies opposed to him.
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Vigor Itself: The glory of Blood triumphant. Let those who would stand against him cower, or be undone. A simple but exceptionally powerful option. Adds [+++Might, ++Charisma] to the bonuses from Quickening, subject to the usual conditions. Add your Charisma to your Protection.
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Vigor Itself + ADS is an effective anti-assassination combo. There's no real benefit for weaker enemies to attack from ambush. The targeted +CHA from Holy Shit should make weaker enemies unable to harm Hunger even while he is defenseless and asleep. Possible synergy with taking Curse of Slumber sometime down the line.
 
am thinking about it-- if we had chosen the plenary brand, Holy Shit would be absolutely broken, wouldn't it?
 
[X] The Tears of Winter: King of Winter

There are many good options here. But only one is thematic.

We weren't willing to sacrifice the Nilfellian people on the altar of certain victory, but now that you've been offered such options we're willing to sacrifice their safety on the altar of power?

No. We earned this protecting Nilfel. It's only appropriate that it be spent protecting Nilfel.

Be the King we should be.
 
[X] Feat: Saber

Not gonna lie, a little bummed that Hero's Reward lost. Probably would have offered more power than the Heroic Upgrades on offer now. Especially disappointed that we can't select a Forebear's Blade advancement either because Once and Future's occupying that slot - was really hoping for an upgraded Cut Through.

Now I can only pin my hopes on the vain possibility that we finally do some Praxis training in the Realm of Evening.

Well, Feat: Saber is a good choice in the absence of alternatives. An advancement that actually builds on the fundamental basis of skill from which Hunger draws the techniques of the Sword Praxis from sounds like a great option, particularly when the Crimson Ring penalizes most types of training (except Praxis, hint hint) so it'd be cool if Hunger actually built up a superior degree of swordsmanship whenever possible.

After all, a necessary component of Age is prowess and skill, paired with might honed through experience. Plus this might let us get awesome techniques like Null Slice or Slice Fate or The King Stands Alone (remember how much we lamented passing up on those options afterwards? I do) and that's just great value.

And personally, it's definitely more interesting than King of Winter imo, which is just another numerical buff that makes our numbers bigger. I'm sure it's great in a mechanical and practical sense but I think Hunger actually acquiring a greater measure of superhuman skill would be much more interesting to read about. Hunger's swordsmanship really could do with some work since he's pretty much just been relying on brute force and clever trickery for most of his wins, I'd think it would be really cool if he also honed his mastery of the blade too.

Seriously, the man should feel at least a bit embarrassed about that. The Forebear's successor with perhaps more than a fraction of his predecessor's invincible power, but with so little of his prowess when that brute skill was the Forebear's defining trait. We need to be able to conclusively declare ourselves the greatest swordsman in the Voyaging Realm at least!

That Sabert guarantees the opportunity to acquire Feat: Orb and allows us to complete the Feat Trinity, probably unlocking a Special Advancement at least similar to Trinity in nature, is just the icing on the cake. That's a really difficult advancement to trigger so being able to acquire it as soon as possible would definitely be a good idea. Feat Trinity was touted as one of the primary benefits of the Accursed Implement option in the last build vote after all.

Also the most important benefit of gaining a Heroic Saber:
Rihaku said:
[ ] Feat: Saber - He who is willing to die by the sword, must also have the skill to live by it.

*Finally dunk on Aeira's Sword-Element friend. Take that.
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Hunger can trash even more teenagers! What's not to love?
 
[X] Feat: Saber

The basis for praxis, and combined with some praxis training, I feel this is a good continuation to our vote, which increased Hungers personal power. Not through circumstance, and not by building Armaments, but just straight up combat boost, and if we decide to do that then I think we should do it well.

Rihaku said:
Imagine, 10.7 Combat Rank and the skill to use it!
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Due to exponential nature of Rank, 10.7 is no joke, and will let us gain an increasing combat advantage against the Armaments. We shouldn't increase just rank, but I feel this would be immensely beneficial right now.
 
[X] The Tears of Winter: King of Winter

Ahhh this is literally the perfect Heroic Advancement to salve my conscience and worries. A Hero repays his debts and ensures prosperity for the people he fights to protect.

Although Hunger did not set out with good intentions with his initial subjugation of Nilfel, that doesn't mean he can't reform and do his best after rediscovering the path of Justice.

Not only that, this will pacify the Arcanist, create a Sanctuary from the Apocryphal which not even Pillars does, MINT new Mythic Platinum from the replenished Well of Myth, all the while advancing Aobaru's quest. Truly an encompassing option.

Looking at the other options:
  • Feat: Saber seems rather lackluster to me so I'm not too invested in it.
  • Pillars would give the Ultra-Rare +Mental Stability, but it's a peripheral upgrade since it relies on boosting the efficacy of the Realm itself rather than Hunger. Also, while Comfy Aesthetic is very much desired, I'm not sure how the clearly excessive opulence will jibe with Hunger's current personality of Uttermost while the rest of the party would likely slack off & depend on Hunger even more while inside it.
Crimson Flare is... Okay. It definitely comes off as weird to pick as a Heroic Advancement considering we didn't really utilize the Ring extensively in the fight except for hostage-taking.

King of Winter just speaks deeper to me from a story perspective where things come full circle, Adorie taking a leap of faith in trusting Hunger. Hunger repaying that faith by restoring her nation to its Foremost glory.

Crimson Flare... would allow supernal Bloodcasting & Ennobling, tripling Quickening attributes, and possibly unlocking path to creating the Plenary Armament. Which is potent.
... But it's less synergistic with us buying Adorie's EFB since we're almost certainly bringing her with us, especially since she can bring our Mages out of Voyaging Realm safely. Crimson Flare just feels callous, disconnected or impersonal as an Heroic Advancement for me, because:

1. Increased subtlety to Bloodcasting w/ massively expanded bloodsense feels like it'll trivialize any endeavor it can solve. Hunger can manipulate anything with Blood on a National scales or more, and so subtly that others might not even notice the changes as unnatural since Hunger isn't present, etc.
2. Upgraded Ennobling = acquiring random mooks as capable subordinates feels very impersonal for my tastes as a solution for delegation of tasks.
3. Unlocking the option to recreate the Plenary while tempting, needs to consider that Adorie's EFB paired with Gisena unlocks Foremost Maker which explicitly states a connection to Armaments. I'd much rather see them accomplish it than Hunger. Also I personally see the Plenary's flaws as outweighing its benefits.

TL;DR I simply think helping to rebuild the Realm of Myth & by extension the Voyaging Realm to its true splendor as a satisfying capstone to Hunger's journey as Hero & King, before stepping into the Human Sphere to begin anew. The Crimson Flare is powerful, but much less thematic on a narrative and storytelling perspective, while King of Winter is synergistic and builds upon previous choices.
 
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Resonant, I like your point about the narrative beat of investing in Nilfel. That's very persuasive. However, two points didn't land for me:
Resonant said:
But it's less synergistic with our previous Vote to buy Adorie's EFB where we can bring her along with us.
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What we saw from the Blood Sorcery option will pale in comparison to what we can do with Adorie's bloodline after taking Crimson Flare. Adorie's presence as an exemplar of Bloodline style magic will massively improve our ability to use the Crimson Ring. Blood Sorcery got me really hyped, and I'd love to investigate the system more. So I think there are some mechanical synergies that you aren't considering.

Resonant said:
Unlocking the option to recreate the Plenary while tempting, needs to consider that Adorie's EFB paired with Gisena unlocks Foremost Maker which explicitly states a connection to Armaments. I'd much rather see them accomplish it than Hunger. Also I personally see the Plenary's flaws as outweighing its benefits.
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I am not sure whether Crimson actually allows reconstructing the Plenary Core, specifically. Hunger's domain is Blood, and Procyon didn't seem to need any of that. The sentence might just be reflecting the scale of achievement possible with a fully mastered ring. (If others disagree with me, I'd be happy to be wrong about this point. Gaining another Armament might be a consolation for losing Armory of Night.)

Second, Gisena and Adorie can unlock Foremost maker no matter which Heroic advancement we take. Only Crimson Flare provides the pair with the boost from 'Architect of the Age.'

Basically, I think both Crimson Flare and King of Winter achieve similar goals. King of Winter has additional ties to Nilfel while Crimson has more broadly applicable mechanics.

I'm very torn between the options.
 
[X] The Tears of Winter: King of Winter

I'm most interested in the new curse on offer. We're not just repaying our debt to Adorie, but we have the potential to give a nod back to the Accursed for inducting us and giving us this opportunity to begin with!
 
[X] The Ring of Power: Crimson Flare

Hm, these are all good options. I can almost hear Nameless shouting that we should pick Pillars, but between the risks of addiction and the likelihood of the Apocryphal Curse banking credibility? No thanks. Saber's seductively sweet as well. Rank gets better the more Hunger has, it shores up an old weakness by granting skill commensurate with his station. Anti-Rank enemies exist, however; it's probably not worth spending this Upgrade on a Feat when both Rank and skill with a sword can be acquired elsewhere. Saber isn't required to access Orb again, or else I'd weigh it much more heavily. In the end I think Crimson Flare's the strongest choice. King of Winter's respite from Apocryphal procs is nice, but that benefit is limited to this Indenture task. In the long run, Hunger won't have access to Nilfel.

Perhaps it's arrogant to treat that as a consideration when simply surviving the Curse has proven to be so challenging. But on the other hand, King investing most of the Heroic Upgrade's power into Nilfel when Hunger's not Geas-bound to the nation might not be something he can afford. On the non-diegetic level, we already spent 28 Arete awakening the Mirellyian bloodline and are about to leave. The Human Sphere awaits, and Crimson Flare provides necessary utility to supplement Hunger's raw killing power. Future Armament matchups may be more favorable, since Procyon's metallic construction was atypical and 'true' Ereadhihr are likely to share Versch's organic design and be subject to the Ring's debuffs (though Hunger was fortunately immune to Procyon's Ultimate). It's not like Hunger'll be leaving Nilfel in the lurch with this option anyway. The First Flare will wash over the nation and provide the strength to stand in Adorie's absence, a red dawn for a new Age.
 
Hirorubie said:
[X] The Tears of Winter: King of Winter

I'm most interested in the new curse on offer. We're not just repaying our debt to Adorie, but we have the potential to give a nod back to the Accursed for inducting us and giving us this opportunity to begin with!
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"Not enough Curse"
- Hunger
Orm Embar said:
[X] The Ring of Power: Crimson Flare

Hm, these are all good options. I can almost hear Nameless shouting that we should pick Pillars, but between the risks of addiction and the likelihood of the Apocryphal Curse banking credibility? No thanks. Saber's seductively sweet as well. Rank gets better the more Hunger has, it shores up an old weakness by granting skill commensurate with his station. Anti-Rank enemies exist, however; it's probably not worth spending this Upgrade on a Feat since both Rank and skill with a sword can be acquired elsewhere. Saber isn't required to access Orb again, or else I'd weigh it much more heavily. In the end I think Crimson Flare's the strongest choice. King of Winter's respite from Apocryphal procs is nice, but that benefit is limited to this Indenture task. In the long run, Hunger won't have access to Nilfel.

Perhaps it's arrogant to treat that as a consideration when simply surviving the Curse has proven to be so challenging. But on the other hand, King investing most of the Heroic Upgrade's power into Nilfel when Hunger's not Geas-bound to the nation might not be something he can afford. On the non-diegetic level, we already spent 28 Arete awakening the Mirellyian bloodline and are about to leave. The Human Sphere awaits, and Crimson Flare provides necessary utility to supplement Hunger's raw killing power. Future Armament matchups may be more favorable, since Procyon's metallic construction was atypical and 'true' Ereadhihr are likely to share Versch's organic design and be subject to the Ring's debuffs (though Hunger was fortunately immune to Procyon's Ultimate). It's not like Hunger'll be leaving Nilfel in the lurch with this option anyway. The First Flare will wash over the nation and provide the strength to stand in Adorie's absence, a red dawn for a new Age.
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With Procyon's creation heralding the start of Astral Age, it's only fitting that its destruction heralds the start of Age of Blood.
 
Anyway, given that we are not going to take Pillars upgrade, it's likely that we won't get picks out of Pillars. We want to focus on Mental Stability, Hunger sated and picks/praxis, in that order, and we are likely spend our time doing first two. Now, it's likely that Gisena(especially with Crimson Flare upgrade) and Adorie can generate some value in that time, but that's it.

We could choose to forgo Hunger Sated and then get it after Pillars, but I kinda don't want to waste my time with that.
 
Wolfy said:
Anyway, given that we are not going to take Pillars upgrade, it's likely that we won't get picks out of Pillars. We want to focus on Mental Stability, Hunger sated and picks/praxis, in that order, and we are likely spend our time doing first two. Now, it's likely that Gisena(especially with Crimson Flare upgrade) and Adorie can generate some value in that time, but that's it.

We could choose to forgo Hunger Sated and then get it after Pillars, but I kinda don't want to waste my time with that.
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Pillars is a relatively controlled environment - no innocent bystanders to activate the Moral Onslaught. With Crimson Flare we would be able to mitigate the loss of life energy from our companions, specifically. Adorie might be able to mitigate some portion of the existential diminishment to the Realm of Evening as a whole.

But it would absolutely be a short term gain of +Mental Stability & immediate Praxis picks in exchange for a long term minor ( but irrecoverable ) reduction in the overall amount of Life Energy available to the Realm of Evening.

Probably not worth the headache to fight about it in thread
 
[X] The Ring of Power: Crimson Flare

The more I think about it, the less on board I am with letting Nilfel go back to the good ol' days. These guys have spent way too long getting jerked around by randos more powerful than them, from the Shard to Augustine to Hunger. It's kind of fucked up that this is a culture dedicated to preservation of lost glories; the inverse of their Royal Bloodline's special power is to make things better. With an eternal lifespan, a massive and holistic bonus to their abilities and blessings of a new age letting them create untold glories, they've got no excuse.

Awaken the Font yourselves, you lazy bastards. And then make the Realm of Myth better than it ever was in the olden days, on and on into a shining tomorrow.
 
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runeblue360 said:
[X] The Ring of Power: Crimson Flare

The more I think about it, the less on board I am with letting Nilfel go back to the good ol' days. These guys have spent way too long getting jerked around by randos more powerful than them, from the Shard to Augustine to Hunger. It's kind of fucked up that this is a culture dedicated to preservation of lost glories; the inverse of their Royal Bloodline's special power is to make things better. With an eternal lifespan, a massive and holistic bonus to their abilities and blessings of a new age letting them create untold glories, they've got no excuse.

Awaken the Font yourselves, you lazy bastards. And then make the Realm of Myth better than it ever was in the olden days, on and on into a shining tomorrow.
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I agree, but if we leave Nilfel without unlocking the fountain of free Empyrean Signs, will we ever come back? I really like the idea of Nilfel as a storybook setting, and the thread's antipathy for it makes me nervous about Ennobling them and then fucking off forever, having claimed their last Mirellyian, their Cloak, and their Platinum.

Like, it's exciting to think about what a nation of mages might do as the Architects of a new age after seeing the light of the First Flaring. But will we have to come back to reap the rewards!
 
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[X] The Ring of Power: Crimson Flare

Shard said:
I assume Hunger would be able to find targets from arbitrary distances.
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Its better than just that, it solves our Decimation time crunch issues in a way Rihaku hinted we could do if we got two charges of Penant instead of teleportation.

Namely, our blood casting range would be wide enough that Hunger could let Hunger Sated lapse, but while doing so carefully blood buff everyone in the effected range so that they don't lose any effective lifespan.
Remember all the of the fear the thread got whipped up in about the mathematical consequences of letting Decimation effect the population for even a few days because of the mortality rate multiplied by the nation's stupidly huge population? A potential solution for that was boosting up our Blood Casting with Penants to the point where we could increase everyone effected's lifespan before the death toll mounted.

The ability to let it go for a day or two would have saved us Versh's kidnapping and the lives of all of those lords and houses that were assassinated by Augustine while we went to slay the Armament Fish.

Plus its also a strategic level 'I win' button for a lot of scenarios. The Armament we just killed was only capable of making good on its threats because through some form of ability it was capable of slaying millions individually. Being able to bloodlessly (heh) control a nation's command structure from anywhere on the borders neatly sidesteps a lot of the dirtier 'have to kill guards in order to negotiate with the leader at sword point despite those guards not being worse than the leader' questions.
 
[X] The Tears of Winter: King of Winter
Been lurking a while, might as well...

Id want this not so much to pay back the debts accrued, as much as making challengers to the throne much less likely, and face stiffer opposition to recruitment, even if she is away. There were already a lot of unhappy people for her changes, iirc, leaving aside the money, the now eaten tower, and the heavily damaged walls. If she leaves on top of that...
But with the walls healing and the wells restored, it all becomes an investment that paid massive dividends. A very different context, and may make taking back control and stopping the conquest seem like a vital part of renewing the wells, instead of an mostly unrelated decision. So those who loved her love her more, those with doubts lose them, and even (politicsl) enemies have to consider if the wells would dry up again if she stops being queen. This should free her mind of those concerns, giving her more _effective_ time to work on projects we would like. Also make her more confident in her own choices.

As a distinctly secondary concern, this also seems like it would make coming back to visit/rest/check on things take much less effort, and the place more likely to produce interesting/useful people in the long term.

Tertially, i just like the way it adds momentum to a theme of making things better, happily ever after, for Hunger, despite the relevant Curses.
 
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