Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
It might also have casting or preptime requirements that make it unfeasible to perform before the Armament arrives, considering we've only got a handful of minutes.
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
It might also have casting or preptime requirements that make it unfeasible to perform before the Armament arrives, considering we've only got a handful of minutes.
I've included cast time and so on into the cost, yeah.
Last edited:
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
(Emphasis Mine.)
I think it's also worth pointing out that the Aggressive Research plan includes a secondary tier of Ring protection for the gang. The effects of Ring Regeneration and Undying Vanguard compound on each other to make the party considerably more robust against collateral damage.
The Sixth Sign will also be boosted +.2ISH by the effects of OaF, btw.
[x] Hold the Line
[x] Call Up
[x] Aggressive Research
To expand on this - Hold the Line has got a couple of minutes for spell casting. This can be prolonged by attempting diplomacy or having Gisena delay, which would make casting another couple minute spell in addition to Armor realistic. Basically, Hold The Line would have to get spell that is either instant or has ~5 minute cast time, which is majority of spells so far. It's possible that all the spells will have too long of a cast time, or that ones that don't have little value, but that's the risk we take with Holding the Line. We need to take good risks to get ahead in order to win, and this seems like a good gamble.
Other options can afford to get longer cast spells, so they should just get it for value.
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
I need to go to bed before dawn, but I want to point out that Armor of Midnight refers to its wearer as the 'King of Darkness' and unveils the wearer's full Charisma stat. Plus, it only takes 10 minutes. Most importantly, it offers Stage II mitigation of all Curses while active.
This suite of abilities, from the title of 'King' to the curse mitigation, makes it perfectly suited for approaching the Shard of the Arcanist. She may be more willing to negotiate with Hunger as an equal (instead of as a snac) if he holds the titles 'King of Winter' and 'King of Darkness.' The Empyrean Signs are a magic system tied to Nilfel's history, just as the Arcanist's runes were. Having stage II mitigation of Apocryphal and Tyrant (!) will allow negotiations to go as smoothly as can be expected. (Especially since Gisena "speaks" the language now!)
...by contrast, the Armor's defense seems to scale according to 'the universe.' If an Armament's Shroud qualifies as a Universe, then the defensive mitigation of targeting 'the interplanetary space of the entire universe' might just mean "the volume of Procyon's Shroud.'
I am open to counterarguments but the details of AoM seem like talking to the Shard is a better plan than open warfare.
[x] Hold the Line
[x] Aggressive Research
I'm not sure I actually agree with nabbing the sixth sign, but I also want to give it a shot at being in the running, so it has my support for now.
-rank is so oof, but perhaps it's what we need? I can see how it's possible, just be prepared to break synergy if you're voting for this.
[x] Aggressive Research
I'm not sure I actually agree with nabbing the sixth sign, but I also want to give it a shot at being in the running, so it has my support for now.
-rank is so oof, but perhaps it's what we need? I can see how it's possible, just be prepared to break synergy if you're voting for this.
I think the Shroud is something similar to the inner world of Titans. Remember that most Daos are limiting, they grant huge amount of power but at the end they are shackles (All Paths blurb about Dao) that can limit you.
Also I had a hypothesis after I saw the OaF 2 - it removes our ability to manifest a Shroud in exchange for +0.2 ISH. I think Shrouds are reinforcing of the current state You (your world/your ideas/your Rank/your all) and intensifies them. But this is has sacrificed the ability to grow and move upwards on the ISH. So the Shroud could be a literal universe where the Armament rule supreme.
I am kinda iffy on Aggressive Research - we are commited to only take evening sky signs for the sweet combo but this is a gamble that we can lose. Honestly Call Up without anything is a good compromise, seeing people want to be heroes, no matter how dangerous it is.
Choosing to fight 5 picks will mean Hunger will be even more reckless than he already is, leading to heightened chances of death. If you think that picking risky choices will lead to Hunger getting the benefits without the costs, then you are mistaken. Our actions affect Hunger's chances of long-term survival by determining the actions he will take, if we decide to regularly fight 5 picks then Hunger will get both the positives and negatives of deciding to fight 5 picks, he will not somehow get only the positives without the negatives.
- Location
- Poland
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Call Up
Chiming in for the NOT!DYING gang.
Chiming in for the NOT!DYING gang.
- Location
- Louisiana
I think aggressive research is a bad idea. The high level signs have massive costs to their use, they can't be used frequently. We'd be dropping a massive amount of rank, crippling our base power level, to unlock an infrequent tool. I just don't think it's worth it, especially if we don't go with hold the line to gain something from the loss.
Not quite correct:
Armor of Midnight also has only 10 minute cast time. If you go through Signs, you will see that most have reasonable cast times. Noonday signs, in particular, tend to be very convenient to use.
It is possible that all three have shitty cds, but that's either risk we have to take(Hold The Line) or something you don't care about(other two options).
We are in situation where "infrequent tool" is obviously better than "massive amount of rank". We can come back in Rank with mere investiture of time. Even if were accept the argument that 1 rank is superior to 6th Sign in general sense, it still doesn't matter because 6th Sign will facilitate defeating Procyon much better, allowing us to defeat it and advance with less drawbacks.
Not getting 6th Sign here is just asking for Hunger to sacrifice himself anyway. It's much better to burn 1 Rank for roughly equal value than to burn 3 Ranks just to beat Procyon because you didn't get 6 Sign.
Like, just fucking get 6th Sign. It's a good offer, do it.
Last edited:
- Location
- Louisiana
It's a gamble, we've seen that not all sign options are direct combat measures. Saying that a 6th sign is assuredly better than 1 entire rank is presumptuous, we have no clue what kind of effects the 6th sign might entail. Every single option that we have been given is directly stated to have risks, this is an apocrypha proc there is no direct best answer. I don't think the risk is worth it, 1 rank is a fucking massive difference, and if the sign isn't directly relevant we're screwed.
Yes? That's what I said. I guess that you just haven't bothered reading my analysis?
Entire point of Holding the Line is that it's a gamble. A risk. Once when you start doing something like that, it's becomes all about taking the right risks. Which getting the 6th Sign is. Getting a good Sign can massively change the course of fight. Getting literally nothing sucks, but we can still deal with it. Chances of getting something decentish, based on previous choices, are pretty decent. Ergo, this is obviouslly a good choice and you should take it.
It has decent chance of succeeding, success has massive reward, failure, while punishing, still leaves room for succeeding. It's just a no-brainer to pick it.
6th Sign being superior to 1 Rank is so obvious that there's no need to even argue about it. Right now, our 5th Sign >>>> 1 Rank, and 6th Sign is even stronger.
Majority of Signs are combat related, and even utility ones would be highly relevant due to sheer power of ~universal scale effects.
- Location
- Europe
I find the idea that the 6th signs is obviously superior to a higher Rank unfounded.
Let's look at an example:
If AoF 3 has a similar intesifying characteristic as AoF 1 and 2 then a higher Rank will also bring with a much greater to improvement to that base.
If the goal is to pick Call Up or Fall Back so that we can acquire AoF then it is very much possible that sacrificing Rank would dramatically lower Hungers combat and general potential, even after factoring in a 6th sign.
Let's look at an example:
If AoF 3 has a similar intesifying characteristic as AoF 1 and 2 then a higher Rank will also bring with a much greater to improvement to that base.
If the goal is to pick Call Up or Fall Back so that we can acquire AoF then it is very much possible that sacrificing Rank would dramatically lower Hungers combat and general potential, even after factoring in a 6th sign.
Well, you are free to refute that Armor of Midnight is, in fact, superior to 1 Rank right now. Something that should be blatantly obvious to even casual analysis of our situation.
Except, as we see with OaF 2, OaFs can boost Signs in the same manner. In fact, 0.2ish to our Armor likely does more than same buff to Rank, as it puts us out of danger zone of sitting at ~2ish.
Based on fucking what? Unlike Hold the Line there's not even risk of good combat Sign getting ignored because of cast time, so you are sure to get something better than Armor of Midnight, which is already better than Rank.
You get somewhat weaker Deathly Star, Bloodcasting debuff and general Rank. Who gives a fuck?
Last edited:
- Location
- Europe
The difference is here.
1 Rank is a more than exponential increase.
At the moment Hunger is largely comparable in Rank to an Armament, except in the Matter of a Shroud and base physical stats.
If he loses his Rank he is unequivocally weaker in every single way. To make up that difference and make up the difference that AoF 3 could provide to his Rank and thus holistic combat capacity, is well beyond what we have seen from any single Sign.
If instead he keeps his Rank and Stacks AoF on top then all his combat relevant attributes get improved, including his Rank. This would also increase Deathly Star, Summoning Signs, Bloodcasting and more.
Most of Hunger's abilities scale off Rank, losing Rank strikes at a central pillar of his build.
1 Rank makes very little difference in combat here. Our main issues are speed, protecting allies and outputting enough damage, most of which are impacted little by losing this amount of Rank.
I do note that you evaded my question about Armor. Without Armor we'd just lose instantly. We'd have exactly zero chance fighting against Procyon. It's unquestionably stronger than 1 Rank here. Don't even bother replying if you can't refute this because it easily proves that 6th Sign is better than 1 Rank.
Except we have HDS and Bastion so any amount of Rank disparity is heavily mitigated. That makes trading Rank away for something else even better.
No, only three you've listed are relevant(Summoning too, although to lesser degree). They are of limited relevance. Rank+Bloodcasting debuff is useful, but not crucial, and difference in power of Deathly Star is, again, relevant, but not crucial. 6th Sign would be completely gamechanging, obviously enough.
Again, it should be really obvious to even the slightest analysis of situation that Armor of Midnight is vastly more important than 1 Rank. 6th Sign is better than 5th Sign. Ergo, using basic logic, a>c.
Last edited:
ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
I'm finding it delightfully ironic that Wolfy is now arguing that rank doesn't matter. However, he does make a good point: with Bastion of Myth, lower rank is easier to tank then most other things. I'm willing to take a shot at that sixth sign and hope the Evening Sky one is combat relevant.
[x] Call Up
[x] Aggressive Research
[x] Call Up
[x] Aggressive Research