A Simple Transaction I

Zampano said:

(But I suspect that your objection doesn't actually have anything to do with death risk, because nobody has explained to me what in the next two weeks is going to kill us through the protections of Silver of Evening + Gisena + Nilfel's Legions + Rerolls + Defensive Wish. It's just automatic & unthinking risk aversion.)

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This seems deeply unfair, and frankly, uncomfortably close to bad faith. The easy and obvious answer here is that the apocryphal curse gets enough power to wake up Augustine's mother. She seems to be a fair bit stronger than Hunger right now, she can explicitly trivially destroy the Nilfelian legions, and I wouldn't be shocked if her opposition results in burning either companions, rerolls, or both (leaving out the option of Hunger getting ganked). Moreover, rerolls are an incredibly valuable resource, currently priced at $120 each. I'm kind of leery of risking them unnecessarily. Defensive wishes are even more expensive!

(And I say all this despite the fact that your arguments were the ones that persuaded me to vote for the value train options!)

[X] Cursebearer's Strain
[X] Consolidate Power
[X] Regency
[X] Intensive Research

Strange9 said:

This seems deeply unfair, and frankly, uncomfortably close to bad faith.

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Given the aggro of the post to which I was responding, I stand by my response.

Strange9 said:

Moreover, rerolls are an incredibly valuable resource, currently priced at $120 each. I'm kind of leery of risking them unnecessarily. Defensive wishes are even more expensive!

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This was a response to a claim that taking Strain was a Game Over, which I felt was not a reasonable concern to raise in this discussion. I have argued elsewhere about my prediction about the consequences of Strain, and in those arguments I have tried to be careful not to invoke rerolls or defensive wishes that I haven't paid for.

Strange9 said:

The easy and obvious answer here is that the apocryphal curse gets enough power to wake up Augustine's mother.

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Based on the public blurb about the 5th Empyrean Sign, I'd be willing to take that fight tbqh.

My point is that we need to compare the package of Strain + Research against potential alternative Relaxation votes. In any such comparison, I think that the new pair of Empyrean Signs grants sufficient power to offset the effects of Strain while securing long-term growth potential, and is more efficient in both short- and long-term plot and character considerations.


Edit:

(And I say all this despite the fact that your arguments were the ones that persuaded me to vote for the value train options!)

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More evidence that prolonged debate risks alienating audience members. maybe i'd do better to stick to shitposts and fan reactions
(thank you for calling me out and keeping me honest. i really am trying not to fight fire with fire, despite a few responses that seemed to be a little more heated than what I was posting myself.)

Conjured Blade said:

Does anybody remember the non extrusion options for when we did true vault of the pharoh in Even Further Beyond and ended up with actual people in it that have retroactive history?

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Uh, that reminds me of Rihaku's habit of putting in new details in the options that are only known after the fact that makes the option much less palatable than it was before.

Now I'm expecting something to sour the convenience of the Pillars of Creation.

Mannan said:

Uh, that reminds me of Rihaku's habit of putting in new details in the options that are only known after the fact that makes the option much less palatable than it was before.

Now I'm expecting something to sour the convenience of the Pillars of Creation.

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If we train signs then have to choose between a pleasure Palace or monster realm for starting pillars build it's going to suck for example.

We'd have to choose between monster and training in the other case, which sounds worse. I'd much rather have -1 stability and Hunger Sated than no power and Hunger Sated.

Although I don't think Pillars will be analogous to Diagram Spell, it's more likely that we need to unlock features rather than choosing a type.

If Conjured Blade is correct, the analysis is almost easier:


If we're stuck with either Monster Realm OR Pleasure palace, I'll take pleasure palace no matter what build wins this vote. But we'll be better off if we get Signs and then Pleasure Palace instead of going on a double vacation.

There are some interesting tactical considerations for MENTAL STABILITY GANG here! If Zampano's theory that we'll need to practice with Pillars to get the full benefit is correct, then they might be better off voting for immediate power here! It might not yield immediate benefits, but it does position MENTAL STABILITY GANG to argue more effectively for focusing on the relaxation-focused aspects of the Realm of Evening, thus earning Hunger a small monthly +Mental Stability income!

I wouldn't peronally mind if the Strain vote won, but I do have a couple complaints about some of the rhetoric involved in supporting it.

While I agree that the rewards are enormous, and likely worth it, I think dismissing the costs fails to give credit to Rihaku as a game master and writer.

He's got a bit of an obsession with vermisslitude in the story and transparency with us. If he thinks that the costs of this 26~ arete of value are reasonable, then I don't doubt they are.

Secondly, we all have varied preferences in what we enjoy in the quest, how much we enjoy it, and what we want next. Mine change day-to-day.
It's not invalid for someone to care more about story beats and pacing and fluff scenes than gains and efficiency and empire building. It's not wrong to prefer the latter, either.

It's a bit wrong to dismiss other's preferences entirely. I sympathize, because an argument full of wishy washy language like what I have here lacks the punch of an absolute stance. It just sounds better to straight up call the other guy a fool, but it's not an argument in good faith.

(Unless you're arguing with Sharky, then go nuts)

That reminds me. When have we chosen an option that increased mental stability?

Because Hunger was not exactly in the right state of mind when he began the journey.

I remember a time when people wanted to buff mental stats 😆

Zampano said:

But I suspect that your objection doesn't actually have anything to do with death risk, because nobody has explained to me what in the next two weeks is going to kill us through the protections of Silver of Evening + Gisena + Nilfel's Legions + Rerolls + Defensive Wish. It's just automatic & unthinking risk aversion.

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The Apocryphal may very well empower an ant to the level where we'd be forced to use our defensive wish.

Zampano said:

If we're stuck with either Monster Realm OR Pleasure palace, I'll take pleasure palace no matter what build wins this vote. But we'll be better off if we get Signs and then Pleasure Palace instead of going on a double vacation.

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If we fight a single 2 pick per day within pillars then we'll gain far more than anything 26 arete will get us.

Current vote count?

Edit: I figured out something!

Zampano said:

If Conjured Blade is correct, the analysis is almost easier:

Intensive Research + Strain	Realm of Myth Relaxation (Sightseeing + x)
Over the next two weeks, we take -Mental Stability, but gain 26 Arete worth of immediate power with a chance for +0.1 Rank (among other benefits)	Over the next two weeks, we take +Mental Stability, but gain no immediate power without Arete expenditure. Results depend greatly on secondary option. (Maybe we can get a companion EFB?)
In the Realm of Evening, we can choose between Pleasure Palace and Monster Realm Pleasure Palace Monster Realm Increases chances of non-combat advancements like Graces, mentoring, anagathic peaches for Decimation mitigation Harder to argue for, because Hunger is all tuckered out. Realm of Evening Food Porn is probably better than Realm of Myth food porn.	In the Realm of Evening, we can choose between Pleasure Palace and Monster Realm Pleasure Palace Monster Realm Unlikely to win because we just went on vacation. Still get access to Graces, peaches Results are probably not worth 26 Free Arete in total. If this does win, we'll be looking at 5 weeks without serious increase in power

If we're stuck with either Monster Realm OR Pleasure palace, I'll take pleasure palace no matter what build wins this vote. But we'll be better off if we get Signs and then Pleasure Palace instead of going on a double vacation.

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Really feels like their is a bias here Zampano. I wouldn't put it so clear cut as like that where it favors your plan. Signs and Praxis don't need to be exclusive in only outside the Pillars. While admittedly it has synergy with Adorie and administrating polities, Signs also has some synergy when done instead inside the Realm of Evening like getting some buffs on Adorie plus rare advancements that can further help research (looking at you Cloak of Sky and Tears of Winter) and the refreshments of that paradisical dimension can allow us to the Study the Blade without the downsides.

Monster Palace also has merit. It might not rival the raw power of Praxis and the utility of Signs, but we can harvest advancements that unlock and discount EFBs. Remember Outer Sky and Avenger? Their is also the rare advancements that are harder to come by like Linear Halo or What Rains May Come that can be reliably dropped. Speaking of being able to produce exact enemies needed, how about dropping exp bags worth 1-2 picks so we can clear all the non-Arete low lying fruits like the Opalescence line or Tears unseen basic advancements? Then their is the fact that we can train the kids even further beyond in the Realm what with deific medicines there! Your probably right that this won't rival the raw power of your proposed plan but we won't need it because we didn't give ourselves Cursebearer's Strain.

In closing, your plan is not the "your stupid if you don't take this" option. Rather I see it as one of two emerging paths we will take. Either we go all in Signs/Adorie/Polities and get immense power to tank the empowered Apocrypha and use the Pillars as vacation or we go two of Sightseeing/Regency/Consolidate Power and just take it easy/fix "real world" issues and then use Pillars as a hunting ground for those rare advancements and power ups that we have been missing, ending up with lesser power than the former but we don't need it really because we don't have an ominous challenge looming over us.

In the former, its a gamble that if it pays off then we are golden and a loss is but a setback as long as we survive i.e. He Who Dares. In the latter we play it safe, no gamble so no ridiculous rewards i.e. He Who Does Not Dare.

every story has been spoken before.

this one is about mosquitoes and killing them

some stuff happened and ya boy is fucked up. used to be the saikyou and now he's so busted that he can't even kill a single bug. his incandescent fury at that sad fact has allowed him to regain a little bit of his former potential though, which means he can panoply one artifact. what does he choose?

[] The Forebear's Flyswatter - spectacular physical stats, very good at the killing of mosquitoes and enduring the bites but does not prevent the bite in the first place. any mosquito stuck by this is automatically slain beyond the possibility of recovery through the power of electricity
[] The Hero's Bed Net - fantastic defense, will shield from the worst of the bites very easily but too cumbersome for permanent use. can defend others from bites through spiritual colocation. as the artifact closest to your boy's heart, you advance significantly faster with this artifact
[] the Aerial Cloak - solid offensive power, capable of launching many area of effect attacks, unparalleled at slaying large swarms. has an affinity for wisdom and intelligence, to best maneuver with your attacks. default form is a mantle of white-ish fog around your shoulders, automatically slaying any lesser mosquitoes that approach.

A.N: brought to you by discord shitpost gang

[M] the Aerial Cloak - solid offensive power, capable of launching many area of effect attacks, unparalleled at slaying large swarms. has an affinity for wisdom and intelligence, to best maneuver with your attacks. default form is a mantle of white-ish fog around your shoulders, automatically slaying any lesser mosquitoes that approach.

MAEG GANG

EDIT TO VOTE:
[M] the Aerial Cloak - solid offensive power, capable of launching many area of effect attacks, unparalleled at slaying large swarms. has an affinity for wisdom and intelligence, to best maneuver with your attacks. default form is a mantle of white-ish fog around your shoulders, automatically slaying any lesser mosquitoes that approach.

[🦟] The Forebear's Flyswatter

SWAT. THROUGH. Who needs defense when you can kill mosquitoes beyond the possibility of recovery? One day there will be no mosquitoes!

[M] the Aerial Cloak

[🦟] The Hero's Bed Net
C O M F Y

[M] The Forebear's Flyswatter

Would you rather live a life wherein must always hold a weapon of vengeance?

Or would you rather live a life where you have to constantly set up a Bed Net in the toilet just to take a shit?

[M] The Forebear's Flyswatter
The patrician choice. Wield your weapon well, until the war is won.

[M] The Forebear's Flyswatter

I'm interested in seeing where this goes.