Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
Hunger rejected his title wholesale and Gisena is a magical princess who has eschewed many components of nobility as part of her dedication to emulating the Maiden.
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
Talace
It must be raining somewhere else!
Five Arete's worth of options is still pretty good! We've got plenty of good 2 cost buys, plus we already have the bonus from Crimson Flare! And we get picks for the fight too! No need to worry, friends, a wealth of options await us at the end of the tunnel no matter what happens.
[X] Oops, the Soup
[X] The Blade
[X] Ruler & Vassal
Personally I'd go for Subordination - there's never enough Power until you can bend and break the world to your will, after all - but that wouldn't be very IC for Hunger.
[X] The Blade
[X] Ruler & Vassal
Personally I'd go for Subordination - there's never enough Power until you can bend and break the world to your will, after all - but that wouldn't be very IC for Hunger.
DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- They
I think Hunger will be happier with Let it Rest. No weight on his conscience that way.
Dark Abstraction
Infrequent Participant
- Location
- United States
He didn't reject it, he just mentioned that they probably took away his entitlement post-mortem.
I don't want 'pretty good'. I want something at least a little commensurate to what was done to get here.
They don't seem to weigh on his conscience either way. His desire to save Azure stems greatly from the Hunger Ring, but the judgement on what is proper is also decided by the Heart Ring. It doesn't seem to think there's anything improper about setting the Azure Ring up as its vassal.
Talace
It must be raining somewhere else!
Is 5 Arete for free not commensurate? We have power to rip Ber from limb to limb, free Sublime Transfusion and Ennobling (and Augment Dominion Blood), an additional three (maybe even four picks), plus literally everything else we got from the Temple. If this isn't commensurate for you, then that's fine, but we're not in very much need for the Arete, as Darkside Bard eloquently points out.
I also don't think Hunger cares very much about a commensurate reward? His base reason for going to the Temple (scaling) has already been met, and we've gone the extra mile and saved Azure Ring.
- Location
- Pindorama
It's interesting to note that most of the tragedies that befell the Temple civilization and cause it's decline into decadence were caused by fear of the Ring and it's influence. This is likely the rule and not the exception. Only Rest can avoid future tragedies by showing a path forwards where the Rings can rise above their natures. It's defeating the Temple not only martially, but in it's very philosophy. We can have the vision that they lacked; is that not what power is for?
Plus, isn't the opportunity to have the Rings rise above their natures reward enough? That's crazy. It would have a far bigger influence at the world at large and maybe the very cosmology than any 7 Arete option could give us. That's an amazing reward in my opinion.
I mean, I don't think we've lacked for shiny 7-Arete options in any build vote. So it's kind of whatever to me, especially if I never see them! We will probably obsess over something equally as shiny anyway.
Nah man, saving the Ring is what's most important to him! I think Hunger would be happier doing what he can for it. If you yourself want a reward, then I can't change your mind; but I don't think we will be losing much should we just do what we can for it. For me, opening up a new way for the Rings to exist going forward is reward enough.
I mean, look at how much we progressed. I think this jaunt has been quite rewarding already. No matter the option, it would be just the cherry on top; the vast majority of the "rewards" were already acquired. So I don't think missing out on two Arete is important.
Plus, isn't the opportunity to have the Rings rise above their natures reward enough? That's crazy. It would have a far bigger influence at the world at large and maybe the very cosmology than any 7 Arete option could give us. That's an amazing reward in my opinion.
Yeah, it's just how things are done, but that doesn't mean Hunger might not have more peace by having it rest more. He doesn't need more power at this time, so why not give him some more tranquility?
All this 'we need no more power' stuff is kind of weirding me out. Just what gave people that impression? Did we become capable of suplexing Armaments while I wasn't looking? Even if we ignore that us outscaling Apocrypha was dependent on taking incredible risks and isn't something that should be taken for granted, our goal is the subjugation of the Human Sphere.
I'm not Hunger, so I care about the character more than he himself does. That he's the kind of suicidal guy that could just save Azure and forget about all it cost him to do that doesn't mean I can do the same.
Edit: Let It Rest also provides much more modest rewards to Gisena. I might not be a great fan of her, but I would say she deserves the ability to better keep up with Hunger after her latest stunt.
We get 5 Arete in one or two updates. With this, Hunger doesn't even get any 7-Arete options from the Ring.
I'm not Hunger, so I care about the character more than he himself does. That he's the kind of suicidal guy that could just save Azure and forget about all it cost him to do that doesn't mean I can do the same.
Edit: Let It Rest also provides much more modest rewards to Gisena. I might not be a great fan of her, but I would say she deserves the ability to better keep up with Hunger after her latest stunt.
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Talace
It must be raining somewhere else!
Well, aside from the fact that Rihaku said we outscaled the Apocryphal Curse before the picks even came out this update, we get 7 Arete in two or three updates. Ennobling and Transfusion let us buff all of our troops and set up a ridiculous army, GDS prevents betrayal, and we can heal Versch to Rank 7 in literal days, so I'd say we're on track to subjugate the Human Sphere. We're ultimately splitting the difference on an extra update, when we could be unlocking +Azure Ring and minimizing HATEFULNESS, an awfully ominous stat!
An additional line of argumentation to consider is that Hatefulness is a stat that Apocryphal would exploit, and it behooves us to minimize it as much as possible (which is also why I advocate taking Hateful Might).
- Location
- USA
[X] Peerless Grace
[X] The Blade
[X] Let It Rest
Mercy is the right of the strong. I feel like there are unstated heartlessness effects to all these choices. I want Hunger to be the type of person who can show kindness when he's able. Let the Ring heal, show the Ring that we are above their ancient struggle and in doing so prove ourselves to be a master that rises above them.
Ring aside, all of you to vote to spill the soup are SICK. You need to stop and take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror and ask if this is the kind of monster you want to become!
[X] The Blade
[X] Let It Rest
Mercy is the right of the strong. I feel like there are unstated heartlessness effects to all these choices. I want Hunger to be the type of person who can show kindness when he's able. Let the Ring heal, show the Ring that we are above their ancient struggle and in doing so prove ourselves to be a master that rises above them.
Ring aside, all of you to vote to spill the soup are SICK. You need to stop and take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror and ask if this is the kind of monster you want to become!
DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- They
....I don't thing anyone is opposed to getting more power. We are getting plenty of it with Let it Rest. Characterization and Narrative is simply more important to me than 2 more arete right now. As for 7 arete options from the Ring, we have plenty of places we can spent our Arete so opening a few more isn't something that particularly interests me. I am far more interested in Praxis investment, it's simply superior.
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Strange9
hdellaverson@gmail.com
- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
And you would leave Versch-chan bored and hungry, you thrice-damned traitor. Really, who's more worthy of regard, a knockoff Eva Pilot or a 60-meter life-devouring eldritch abomination?
(
)Eh, I don't mind a little hatefulness. It had been tortured for aeons, I don't think having some resentment is that unhealthy.
And we've been explicitly told that 7 Arete is a watershed for the Ring options, so it's not just a difference of two Arete. If that weren't the case, I wouldn't think as much of the option's rewards, though the improvement to Gisena's progression is no less important.
Rank 7 is just... whatever at the scale we'll be operating. Ennobling is what helps us maintain our conquered Realm, but doesn't do nearly as much for actually conquering it, because we don't have an answer to Rank 10 Armaments. Subjugating the Human Sphere is still a pipe-dream.
We aren't getting Arete from the Ring, we're getting Arete-equivalent Ring boni. So the choice of taking the Arete and spending it somewhere else isn't there.
I am still probably going to switch to ruler and vassal at some point but I feel the need to argue this point. That in choosing let it rest not only are we committing an act of great kindness, not only are we committing to potentially rise above the conflict of the rings, but we are doing precisely what the ring lords of the past would never have done. Would the tyrant have settled for anything less than subordination? What about the azure rings previously lord? What ring lord would take less than the azure's vassalage? My point is that in taking let it rest we will be distancing ourselves from the ring lords of the past, at least to the best of our knowledge anyways. Perhaps it has been tried by one of insufficient strength before, but they were not hunger. Furthermore, considering avenging and freeing the ring is sufficient to trigger passion and Avenger, I think it is perfectly in like with Hunter's character to show such mercy. I also believe we can generate the Arete needed to see the seven options at the end of this battle even with rest. I may still switch later, just putting these thoughts out there.
Duquette7
I am Fire, and I am Rain
Rihaku, am I right in assuming that we are limited to spending Azure Ring generated Arete on Azure Ring created options? Meaning we cant utilize thread generated Arete to push us past breakpoints here?
Talace
It must be raining somewhere else!
Fair, but the argument is that the Apocryphal Curse will care about hatefulness! In Ruler and Vassal, hatefulness is modestly reduced, in Let it Rest, hatefulness is massively reduced!
Agreed! But the point you made was that in terms of personal power, we can make 5 Arete rather easily! 7 Arete isn't a far stretch past that, and I am personally indifferent to the breakpoint Rihaku presents. Beyond that, the Gisena progression point is fair, but unclear in terms of relevancy given the existing ways we have to buff her (we can probably pursue RW, Coalescence, PW, bloodbuffs, Undying Vanguard, Rains, etc.)
I think saying Rank 7 is whatever is a bit disingenuous! It'll attract beasts to harvest picks from, massively increase Versch's relevancy in battle, and bring it to a degree of power at least comparable to our own!
Here are some words from Rihaku: "Higher Ranks mean quicker travel time, stronger Astral Beasts and a more useful mech overall. Rank >5 enables Totality control method and potential access to more information."
This is last point is fair, but again, it's unclear how much more relevant these are compared to other boni! Why care about the breakpoint when we can just farm its equivalent in other advancements?
Not sure what you expect Apocrypha to do with its hatefulness. It'll be Gisena's Ring and she's strong-willed enough and got the tools to not let it matter. Besides, it should be grateful to be worn by such a genius!
If you're indifferent to the breakpoint, I'm not sure what to tell you. In that case, Let It Rest might seem like the better option? It's just not the same for me, as I just have to contrast the 7-Arete and 2-Arete options we had seen before. I care about it because we're effectively spending Arete on Ring Advancements either way, the question is how efficient the spending will be.
And I'm not saying Rank 7 will be useless, just not something that will matter much in the context of our conquest. It's a very useful improvement in the short-term, but we'll need much more than that if we want to successfully conquer the Human Sphere while fending off Apocrypha and the rest of our Curses.
[X] The Blade
[X] Let It Rest
I want to be merciful and compassionate to the ring. That's... that's about it. I want to do more than is expected, and want to actually go further and be good and kind. (And if we can even affect our two rings' opinion on things a little bit, all the better.) Hunger doesn't need to look at this and go 'How much power can I get, without troubling my conscious much?' and pick the "middle" option because it's not the "too mean" of Subjugation and is "just as expected (so you don't have to feel bad)."
No, let's do more than that. Also... the ring has been harshly used as hell! Giving it a break could be good, you know?
Plus. He's an ageless Progression Type. He'll still be around a thousand, a million, years from now. So the ring can return to full power eventually.
But, making the choice to moderately-or-maximally (well, basically only moderately, because there's like only 4 votes for Subjugation that I can see) profit off a rescued prisoner... that's something that will remain all those years, millennia, ages, from now on.
So, begin as how you would proceed and end. By not only not-being-a-dick, but also by doing more than is expected.
And, like... We have a huge bounty of power anyway. This entire thing was likely to kill us, at many steps of the way. And we were told that if we survived it, we'd be pretty damn powerful. And we already are. We have 2 EFBs. And one of the EFBs, Crimson Flare, is about to be powered up a little bit just from rescuing the ring, to boot. So we've... we've got enough acceleration for now, don't we?
And as for The Blade choice... Well, I like that one because it has Astral Rank, and the blurb is neat. It'll also be good and apply in most any situations, as the dot points say.
[X] Let It Rest
I want to be merciful and compassionate to the ring. That's... that's about it. I want to do more than is expected, and want to actually go further and be good and kind. (And if we can even affect our two rings' opinion on things a little bit, all the better.) Hunger doesn't need to look at this and go 'How much power can I get, without troubling my conscious much?' and pick the "middle" option because it's not the "too mean" of Subjugation and is "just as expected (so you don't have to feel bad)."
No, let's do more than that. Also... the ring has been harshly used as hell! Giving it a break could be good, you know?
Plus. He's an ageless Progression Type. He'll still be around a thousand, a million, years from now. So the ring can return to full power eventually.
But, making the choice to moderately-or-maximally (well, basically only moderately, because there's like only 4 votes for Subjugation that I can see) profit off a rescued prisoner... that's something that will remain all those years, millennia, ages, from now on.
So, begin as how you would proceed and end. By not only not-being-a-dick, but also by doing more than is expected.
And, like... We have a huge bounty of power anyway. This entire thing was likely to kill us, at many steps of the way. And we were told that if we survived it, we'd be pretty damn powerful. And we already are. We have 2 EFBs. And one of the EFBs, Crimson Flare, is about to be powered up a little bit just from rescuing the ring, to boot. So we've... we've got enough acceleration for now, don't we?
And as for The Blade choice... Well, I like that one because it has Astral Rank, and the blurb is neat. It'll also be good and apply in most any situations, as the dot points say.
Strange9
hdellaverson@gmail.com
- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
I just looked back at the following image and was instantly re-converted to giving Gisena a powerful engagement Ring.
[X] Peerless Grace
[X] The Blade
[X] Ruler & Vassal
[X] Peerless Grace
[X] The Blade
[X] Ruler & Vassal
you thought Hunger was gonna do the princess carry
BUT IT WAS I, GISENA
Huh. Now that I think about it, maybe we could have taken a somewhat more greedy stance with the Blade build and chosen Augment Dominion: Blood in place of Echo of the Forebear. Would have been a bit more dangerous with one less Agi, but would have also pushed the reward from Sten towards a 4-pick.
Tyrant_Rayne
Probably Not Evil… Maybe
- Location
- Canada
If Gisena gets the ring she may end up becoming one with it like we are with ours. In fact this would probably be necessary to unlock it full power. If this happens then she would effectively become our servant if we chose to make the ring our vassal. This would make the ring more of a collar than an engagement ring.
Strange9
hdellaverson@gmail.com
- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
It's possible, but I don't think so: our fusion with the Ring is like our fusion with the Sword: facilitated by the magic of Accretion. As Gisena does not practice it, she shouldn't become one with the Ring, and instead will pursue the normal path of "mastering" thing ring (which has no conflict).