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A Simple Transaction I

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[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[X] Fierce Quickening
[X] Feat - Knife - 2 Arete.
[X] Hero-Defeating Stance
[X] Age

So I am going with this for now. I really would rather not pass up on rank again after choosing to pass up on shameless in favor of vigor incarnate and then getting another opportunity in which we could have taken that. Also I feel that hero defeating is a better expenditure or Arete at this juncture as we alway have access to it and not only does its external rank build with knife to be a bigger increase than shameless was but the rank halving would be great assuming Sten has more than us. I know we want KSA but it's pretty rare and if I remember correctly Rihaku stated that it would probably be easier to buy portions of its effects and assemble something close to it rather than wait for it to come again so I am somewhat skeptical of whether we will get it again anytime soon. Then again maybe this fight with Sten will get it for us, though I honestly want azure moon more at this point.

Also, as Rihaku stated Avenger does not Proc over being injured but over being wronged and that is a significant enough difference that I am not sure it is nearly as applicable as people believe. Most of our fights are things we initiated in one sense or another, I am also not certain how reliable it will be against enemies like non-sentient beasts which can certainly hurt us grievously but can they severely wrong us even without any real intent? Is that something hunger would feel in the sorts of situations he gets into with astral beasts? I just feel that we might want to reevaluate the usefulness of Avenger and good as it is otherwise.
 
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vali said:
[X] Treachery
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Sten likes to quote from earth stories so I'm thinking we should quote the Lord of the Rings back at him as much as possible. I also added a callback to Catherine's last words to make it more personal for Hunger. I'm sure the Apocryphal would appreciate it.

"Why do you still fight? Winning; that's all that matters. But she is gone and you have lost. Dedicate all eternity to your rape of Time and you'd yield no more than the palest memory of her golden hair or warmth, wane echoes that could only remind you of all that you have lost. With every breath you take, and every scream you hear, you draw further apart. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us, but all that is left to you is to sit here and look out upon the lands where evil and despair shall come upon those whom you loved. Here everlastingly thy naked self shall endure the torment of Time's scorn, pierced by its scream, unless thou yield to me the mastery of thy ring."

"Where there is life there is hope, but you have none. Your only dominion is torment."
 
My reasoning for Avenger is that in any fight we aren't the aggressor as long as the enemy doesn't instantly kill us it gives us an incredible panic button. And unlike form of rage we can know when it will trigger precisely - "Did we start this? Yes -> it won't. No -> it will."
 
Byzantine said:
My reasoning for Avenger is that in any fight we aren't the aggressor as long as the enemy doesn't instantly kill us it gives us an incredible panic button. And unlike form of rage we can know when it will trigger precisely - "Did we start this? Yes -> it won't. No -> it will."
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Mm, not always. If they have a very good reason for attacking you it might not count as "severely" wronging you.
 
Byzantine said:
My reasoning for Avenger is that in any fight we aren't the aggressor as long as the enemy doesn't instantly kill us it gives us an incredible panic button. And unlike form of rage we can know when it will trigger precisely - "Did we start this? Yes -> it won't. No -> it will."
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We can always bait them, remember we have +2 Social Rank Stance. Just get Evening Sky to have neon letters saying [X] SUCKS where X is something close to our victim target enemy.
 
[E] Rotten Flesh
[E] Sun Ring
[E] Calculus of Conflict
[E] Minor Artifacts
[E] Cult Warehouses.

ComfyQuest is a go.
 
ImperatorV said:
A low-cost strategy would be Treachery with Honing. A more expensive strat is Age with Avenger or Headsman. Full Passion into Hateful Might exists, not sure it stands up to Avenger and Headsman in power though. Pearlescence is technically an option, but I'm not sure full Protection will really help here.
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Apparently, Pearlescence does produce enough protection to be relevant in this fight, and it has some odds of victory. Most likely less than the other builds suggested.

Rihaku said:
I'm surprised Avenger is this popular, wonder if it's just early momentum. Many that were incensed about Form of Rage are taking Avenger here...
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I suspect people are thinking it's much much more applicable than it really is. Much like the early hype for Form of Rage, before learning that a chance of it working means that it frequently does not.
Byzantine said:
My reasoning for Avenger is that in any fight we aren't the aggressor as long as the enemy doesn't instantly kill us it gives us an incredible panic button. And unlike form of rage we can know when it will trigger precisely - "Did we start this? Yes -> it won't. No -> it will."
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Like this. I'm reasonably confident that most fights, even ones Hunger doesn't start, will not qualify for Avenger.
 
Rihaku said:
Looking at the current arguments, you guys are definitely on the overly optimistic side for Avenger proc rate after this fight...
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Really? Your statement earlier made me think it was ballparked around half the time, on the lower side. So I'm expecting 25-50% proc rate. Not reliable, but it also doesn't require us to die to trigger.
 
Headsman's description was worded as blade winds being sealed. The azure ring grants soul evocation and we know that ours revolves around sealing and imprisonment. Unlocking blade winds again may happen sooner than we are all expecting. It won't be instantaneous but we may be able to get them back in the near future.
 
Rihaku said:
Mm, not always. If they have a very good reason for attacking you it might not count as "severely" wronging you.
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That ties into the subtleties of "did we start this," though.

Certainly, we shouldn't be so reckless as to provoke fights with stronger opponents in hopes that Avenger will close the gap if they act on the provocation!

But it would help us in a large category of all fights against challenging opponents. And in the most common classes of situation where it would not apply (namely, when we are on the offensive against a defending opponent)... those are precisely the situations where we would be most likely to have the choice of simply avoiding the fight altogether!
 
It's literally Form of Rage redux. Just don't make same mistake again, it's that easy.
Tyrant_Rayne said:
Headsman's description was worded as blade winds being sealed. The azure ring grants soul evocation and we know that ours revolves around sealing and imprisonment. Unlocking blade winds again may happen sooner than we are all expecting. It won't be instantaneous but we may be able to get them back in the near future.
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Regarding Headsman, I'd maybe be for it if not for Arete cost involved. Paying Arete on top of two picks on top of sealing Thousand Cuts for what it gives is very hard sell.
 
Rihaku said:
Looking at the current arguments, you guys are definitely on the overly optimistic side for Avenger proc rate after this fight...
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Well, let's see. It procs 100% of the time when its trigger conditions are met, right?

We know it procs against Sten.

I think YOU said it would proc against Ber. Am I mistaken?

You have not commented on whether it would proc against the entities who were the cause of Hunger's original suffering, the ones he seeks revenge against- but it seems like a plausible supposition worth investing towards.

One could make an argument that that alone justifies a sizeable chunk of the purchase price! -1 Arete each, say, for a greatly improved chance of winning each of three boss battles.

...

That leaves other battles. And you're right, it won't proc every time we fight a strong opponent. It won't proc often (if ever) when we are on the offensive and pushing into territory we seek to conquer. But it is disproportionately likely to proc against our worst enemies, especially if we otherwise go out of our way to give enemies ways to survive NOT attacking us.

...

Though I should point out, as a matter of devil's advocacy, that one VERY good reason for people to attack us, that would decidedly NOT trigger Avenger, is "your Curse of the Decimator is devastating our homeland and will kill our people in a terrifyingly short amount of time."

We've kind of forgotten Decimator in the heat of the moment, focused on short-term concerns... but there's a very good reason why in character generation it is viewed as a dire affliction fully half as bad as the Apocryphal Curse!
 
Wolfy said:
It's literally Form of Rage redux. Just don't make same mistake again, it's that easy.

Regarding Headsman, I'd maybe be for it if not for Arete cost involved. Paying Arete on top of two picks on top of sealing Thousand Cuts for what it gives is very hard sell.
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[A Thousand Cuts]
In the Forebear's grip could even a common knife blaze with fell power. All melee attacks made with the Forebear's Blade now apply cursed wounds. Septuples the power and speed of the Fell-Handed Stroke and allows it to be used with blade projections. Such horrific offensive power allows one to challenge foes vastly stronger.

It doesn't really seal thousand cuts though, only the part which allows us to use fell-handed stroke with blade projections.

Headsmen just works very well with Cut Through.
 
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[X] Forebear's Blade - Headsman
[X] Age

As much as Headsman feels like a bribe to get rid of our spammy ranged attacks that's, uh, a hella good bribe if you ask me. The stat boost is quite literally overwhelming (especially because I'm trying to understand if "double strenght" applies after or before our Edeldross enhancements) and Hunger has already been offered a few ranged options in the past (Edeldross is already a strong, if non-lethal, one).

In my opinion, blade-winds are a crutch, if an extremely useful one, and as we develop more the art of Praxis or learn new Magic Systems we'll manage to find a better substitute along the way. Also, the boost to sword-related strenght and agility adds up to Weapon Defeating Stance in a way that just by intercepting Sten's fists we'll deal considerable damage to him as well. I say we take this and make Hunger even more of a master swordsman!
 
Simon_Jester said:
But it would help us in a large category of all fights against challenging opponents. And in the most common classes of situation where it would not apply (namely, when we are on the offensive against a defending opponent)... those are precisely the situations where we would be most likely to have the choice of simply avoiding the fight altogether!
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Hunger's current situation is one where he is on the offensive. He often goes on the offensive for compelling reasons, but those reasons very frequently would not proc Avenger. For example, Huntress' Moon targets.

Simon_Jester said:
One could make an argument that that alone justifies a sizeable chunk of the purchase price! -1 Arete each, say, for a greatly improved chance of winning each of three boss battles.
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Mm, Ber's not really an issue for Hunger anymore. And the Hidden Ones are well beyond the point where something like Avenger would be relevant, unfortunately.

DkArthas said:
It doesn't really seal thousand cuts though, only the part which allows us to use fell-handed stroke with blade projections.
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Yup.
 
[X] Fierce Quickening
[X] Honing - 2 Arete
[X] Treachery

I'm a big fan of treachery, this dude has no backup or allies or any reason to live, so breaking his mind is the best path forward. Honing because adding wits to intelligence in combat will greatly increase our ability to say soul-destroying things while fighting.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
Imagine idly dismissing something that makes you six to ten times stronger in a large fraction of all your battles against enemies capable of seriously hurting you!

Imagine forgetting that roughly half its Arete cost is effectively banked toward an EFB!
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Large fraction? They don't need to wrong us to kill us; that's the problem. Avenger only matters when it's personal and we are the wronged party. That's extremely unlikely to come up. However, in our mission of fighting and conquering the Human Sphere we will fight against people with more dudes than us, and people who out-Rank us; especially the Armor Prototypes. So H-DS is just much more useful. And another EFB, really? do you know how many of those we have booked? It's way too early to build towards another.
Simon_Jester said:
Hero-Defeating Stance is itself only situationally effective; while it has a modest stats boost and a +0.2 Rank increase always active, its main benefits only fire:

1) When the enemy has significantly higher Rank, or
2) When outnumbered by opponents who are actually strong enough to be a threat.

Those conditions are only going to apply situationally to a fraction of all situations Hunger occupies. Based on experience, many of our fights will be duels against enemies with equal or lesser (or at least not much greater) Rank, but weird abilities. We'd have to deliberately double down on 'ranklet' status, which has its own disadvantages, to fully capitalize on this ability.
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Not really. Or rather, you are letting the particulars of the Temple bias you. The Human Sphere definitely doesn't fight with singular dude with unique abilities; but with numbers and ranked Armors. This makes H-DS much more useful against them than Avenger ever could.
Simon_Jester said:
Now, don't get me wrong, Hero-Defeating Stance will trigger to our advantage in lots of fights! But Avenger will trigger in plenty of fights too, and (importantly) is guaranteed to trigger in at least three major fights that are very important to Hunger, two in the near-term and one in the endgame!
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Rihaku said:
Mm, not quite. Remember, severely wronged =/= seriously harmed! It depends on who is at fault.
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I expect this to basically be irrelevant during the conquest of the Human Sphere; Ber is irrelevant after beating the Temple. and picking a power because it might be relevant against the Hidden Ones is just lol. Way too soon is an understatement beyond word. It literally only matters when this go wrong; when we could get a power that helps us in things not going wrong instead. I really don't see the utility of this.
 
Building on your core of power - especially with Advancements that improve your Rank or effective Rank - may very much help you fully exploit the Azure Ring!
 
Xalvitor said:
The winnder of the last vote was {X}Mind X3 + {X}Determination
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Neat.

{Ed} Rotten flesh
{Ed} Determination Manifest
{Ed} Determination's grasp
{Ed} Sun Ring (0 picks, 1 majesty)
{Ed} More training
{Ed} Cult warehouses
{Ed}Crypt of a Forsaken God.

Our previous vote indicated that we can use our Determination to strengthen our body and I'm inclined to double down, especially considering how our main problem last fight was not our physical stats but our inability to resist the corrosive mist. The Curse Mitigation is a nice extra. As for the Condition, I think having a guard of our level that only requires room and board means we'll be able to largely ignore the social penalty since I don't think we're planning on talking to anyone else in a non-hostile context. The Ring because it's a Ring of Power mang, what do you want from me? I don't have to justify that shit.

Raiding the Cult Warehouses seem like an ideal chance to gather further intel about the cult and its capabilities (we'll learn about their magic, if nothing else) which might further boost our chances against the evil god. As for the evil god, it's certainly high risk but the risk of actually having the fight the fucker is even higher, especially as Edwin is likely enough of a hero to blame himself if the thing gets loose. Even if someone else stops it, it would certainly be neat to meet that someone and potentially get a relevant and worthwhile companion to help us out in our quest.

Re: fight scenes, I found it a bit tough to picture it in my head, though it flowed well.
 
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