All luxuries belong to the victor. Be careful that the means do not obviate the ends.
Depends on the degree of victory. If your degree of victory is small, then the luxuries you can grasp is just as small.
Good thing we have non lethal options in the form of Edeldross then. While it is not the strongest as of yet we did put 9 Arete into it and the increase to rank 5 should help. Since we are trying to infiltrate I doubt we will kill hime if we have to and I would bet there is a lot of unconventional stuff we can pull with blood powers to up our persuasiveness. Just earlier I suggested we use blood effects of simulate the results of disturbed emotions or some such when trying to convince him.

Every little bit counts and I bet I am not the only one with such ideas.
It makes it easier to nonlethal, yes. Against a foe who is already overwhelmingly stronger, it might yet be that victory is in the margin where you have to kill.
 
Or get a Praxis option like The King Stands Alone.

If we survive this via a fight I'm certain we'll be offered one.
One of the downsides of splurging so much Arete now, is that...

... I'm pretty sure this like a 3-pick minimum fight (if it comes to a fight, that is) and will probably have some sweet, sweet, Advancements... ... of which the best ones will cost Arete. So. We're kind of screwing ourselves out of the post-fight rewards, by being super-greedy immediately.

And the worst part is that it's probably going to be like it's A Moment's Reprieve or Sky Above Sky all over again. A delicious mix of Low-pick High-Arete options, High-pick Low-Arete options... and even High-Pick High-Arete options. Meaning that, if you did have a ton of Arete on hand right now? You could pig out on all the delicious power on offer.

But instead, you have a vicious debate fight on your hands. For the people who want to start saving Arete and getting low-power options (from a really big fight which gives lots of picks and huge powers) or who don't want to sacrifice for this or that Advancement or Defining Advancement... What an annoying Catch-22. :V

It's like... You need Arete to win. ((Well, not literally and not usually, actually. But in this specific case, oh yes...)) But you also need Arete to profit from your huge win.

And you need that profit -- because if you exit every Big Fight highly mote-tapped Arete-tapped, that means you are ultimately losing out on power, losing out on opportunities for power-ups...

And so, what was the point of being frugal and saving to get lots of power? If you were going to spend all the Arete to win the big fight, and thus then can't afford all the delicious Advancement-loot you got?

... Hm. I guess due to picking up an EFB -- a huge chunk of Arete! -- just before the fight, this is more like Accursed Implement than A Moment's Reprieve or Sky Above Sky. 3 picks, some high-arête picks, and only 4 Arete in the bank because you just spent like 18 Arete to win. ((Losing out on The King Stands Alone from that fight was annoying; it was a very powerful option, but which people did not feel like they could afford. Despite having spent a huge chunk of Arete just then. Because they immediately felt like they needed to go into full-on Arete-saving mode.))

... Again, this is really frustrating to observe from the outside.

The places where we should be able to spend Arete, because Big Fights give big rewards, people immediately switch to wanting to save 'Because we just spent a dozen Arete to win, right? We need to be frugal and save!'

But the purpose of saving is to be able to get power. But we can't get power, because we spend all the Arete to win the fight that would give us the juiciest loot! Beating the Raid Boss immediately makes people go into frugal mode argh. ><

-- Of course, the other possibility is that Hunger just dies here. So.
For the proponents of the Ruling Ring, I'll note that the Three Forebear EFB brings you significantly closer than going from Crimson Flare into the Trinity Special Advancement. Either way, there will be one EFB between you and your goal but the latter is massively incentivized to buy more Rank through Once and Future, which would effectively win us this task by itself. Meanwhile, the Triple Forebear EFB is very power focused and would like to pick up Ruling Ring for both the potential it provides in its own right and the accelerated access to the Imperial Praxis. It's also by far the most prepared to face the contest of primacy, with immense supernal might, resistance to esoteric effects and Willpower through Praxis effects.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought one of the limits of the special-triple-EFBs was thus: "only having 3 EFBs of (Artifact)"/"only having 1 EFB from each Artifact." So that if you were going for 3 Forebear EFBs, you couldn't then get a Ring or Evening Sky EFB?

OR, is it that you THEN have to get the Special EFB before you pick up any other EFB?

(So that theoretically you could pick up a Ruling Ring EFB after getting a Trio-Forebear or Trio-All-Artifacts special advancement/EFB/whatever it is... it's just that, well... It would cost shittons of Arete.)

... Actually, argh, is it an Advancement or an EFB? The One-of-Each-Artifact and 3-of-One-Artifact thing? Is it an Advancement, or an EFB? Is it automatic, or something you have to spend Picks and/or Arete on?
 
Depends on the degree of victory. If your degree of victory is small, then the luxuries you can grasp is just as small.

It makes it easier to nonlethal, yes. Against a foe who is already overwhelmingly stronger, it might yet be that victory is in the margin where you have to kill.

Yeah but with flare he is no longer overwhelmingly stronger. 7 is high rank right and rank get more and more valuable the more we have, so our blood effects should effect him quite significantly. Rank 5 for everything else combined with cut through and our stats evens it up even more. I am not saying we are necessarily even on par with him, but the gap is no longer insurmountable.
 
Oof.

You know what I'm gonna be super salty about? Us having to kill Gramps.

Like, I don't know when it happened but I reaaalllllyyy want Gramps to become part of the team. Even in just a tangential way.

Sure, we've got Gisena who props up Hunger much as she can. Letrizia has the impish childishness that helps Hunger out as an outlet for his doting dad energy. Verse is the family dog that bonds with him during those quiet sunday morning fishing trips.

But you know what? Hunger deserves a goddamn father-figure. He was whisked away when he was a teenager, probably in his rebellious years too. Sure, he might have grown up with his comrades but he's probably burned all those memories away to make sure the Tyrant got deadedederest.

Had to grow up a bit too fast too furious for those first few years, he would've probably really missed his folks. There were just some things a son needs to share with his dad, and he might not have had such a chance.

So I dunno. Hunger and Gramps, exchanging dumb as shit stories about their kids and hobbies, throwing out dry-wit about who has the cuter kid, and Hunger off-loading some of that bullshit off his chest? Ugh. heart warming scene. or maybe im just projecting, kek

But eh. If we gotta stab his heart for survival and victory, then we gotta stab his heart. Sorry Gramps, you woulda been gr8.
 
orrect me if I'm wrong, but I thought one of the limits of the special-triple-EFBs was thus: "only having 3 EFBs of (Artifact)"/"only having 1 EFB from each Artifact." So that if you were going for 3 Forebear EFBs, you couldn't then get a Ring or Evening Sky EFB?

OR, is it that you THEN have to get the Special EFB before you pick up any other EFB?

(So that theoretically you could pick up a Ruling Ring EFB after getting a Trio-Forebear or Trio-All-Artifacts special advancement/EFB/whatever it is... it's just that, well... It would cost shittons of Arete.)

... Actually, argh, is it an Advancement or an EFB? The One-of-Each-Artifact and 3-of-One-Artifact thing? Is it an Advancement, or an EFB? Is it automatic, or something you have to spend Picks and/or Arete on?

3-EFBs unlock a special advancement, and we must take it before we get any other EFBs to stay available. After we pick it we can get EFBs again.
 
"You were great! But I preferred this other power-up, sorry, sucks to be you" is not very compelling to me personally.
 
Was the cost for the Special Advancement ever clarified?

Do we need to spend picks? Does it eat up a Defining Advancement Slot? God Forbid, does it also cost 25 more Arete to get, rounding up our expenditure to clean wholesome 100 arete to complete a set?

Or is it like, a buy 3 get 1 free kinda deal? Cause i'm definitely hoping for this one.
 
"You were great! But I preferred this other power-up, sorry, sucks to be you" is not very compelling to me personally.
It's possible that we've been using progression goals to distract from our rather spurious trip to the Temple turning into a crusade. It's not like we have much beyond the Ring's word to justify our increasingly-miserable acts of conquest.
 
I just want to say before update drops that this was an awesome effort, and I am thankful to everyone who contributed.

However dice falls, we tried our hardest.
 
@HoratioVonBecker

Here's your system! Got delayed due to IRL affairs

Kinda merges you're two prompts together.


Inner Edifice:
Pretty cool, thanks! Sort of a combination of Cultivation and Tinkering. Like Thrice-Great without the Diagram, in exchange for considerably better-defined artifacts. (It also reminds me of the soul-based magic system I came up with like a decade ago, for my biggest universe - very different in practice, though, since its' whole deal was founded on souls being indestructible.)
A couple of things that seem obvious to me, but didn't entirely come across:
*While powerful, part of the inherent price of extruding an Edifice is the knowledge of how it works - figuring out self-replication principles is essential to using it effectively.
*Not only that, but more fundamental knowledge can be lost - if I make a sword that cuts the real from the ideal, I may lose the ability to separate the two in my own mind. Figuring out how to back up one's knowledge probably may not only necessary to be effective, but even to function as an artifact-user.
*It's not obvious what happens if you're separated from one of your Edifices. That chains into the pair of modifications I would make:
-Since it doesn't quite seem to embody the concept of "beacon as origin point", I propose that soul-parts are entangled very deeply, beneath the level where "destruction" is a viable concept. The practical ramification is a linking in dreams and in fate; no matter how scattered or diminished, the components of an Inner Edifice reflect their completed whole, and are drawn together by ontology.
This mostly manifests as evil overlords, amnesiac craftsmen, and destructively retconjured people eventually reconstituting themselves, or at least having the option.
-The epiphany could use a bit more definition/tying into the rest of the system's themes. Probably something on the nature of knowledge and/or selfhood. Deviant epistemology.
In fact, I bet it's facilitated by a tiny, conceptual extrusion - the secret to its' making is the core of it. Might manifest as an extra couple of neurons, so it could be really difficult to figure out that's what's going on after the fact. I like that.
(344 words.)
 
Was the cost for the Special Advancement ever clarified?

Do we need to spend picks? Does it eat up a Defining Advancement Slot? God Forbid, does it also cost 25 more Arete to get, rounding up our expenditure to clean wholesome 100 arete to complete a set?

Or is it like, a buy 3 get 1 free kinda deal? Cause i'm definitely hoping for this one.
The cost has not been specified in-thread, but special advancements are likely to be similar to EFB's in regard to cost metrics. The Patreon has a bit more specificity but it's also very much got the "this is a draft and subject to change" clause attached, so even there it's not concretely known.
 
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Oof.

You know what I'm gonna be super salty about? Us having to kill Gramps.

Like, I don't know when it happened but I reaaalllllyyy want Gramps to become part of the team. Even in just a tangential way.
But eh. If we gotta stab his heart for survival and victory, then we gotta stab his heart. Sorry Gramps, you woulda been gr8.
Hmm, you know, to be fair...

A really strong sign of sincerity from Hunger, and a way to get rid of all the suspicion that would have caused Avecarn to decide "Nope, it's a trick, get an axe!"... would be to win the fight and then spare the guy.

Since, well, maybe he'd be a lot more reasonable then, right?
 
Hmm, you know, to be fair...

A really strong sign of sincerity from Hunger, and a way to get rid of all the suspicion that would have caused Avecarn to decide "Nope, it's a trick, get an axe!"... would be to win the fight and then spare the guy.

Since, well, maybe he'd be a lot more reasonable then, right?

Oof. I wanna be optimistic but, unfortunately, I'm nowhere Aurelia's foot's level of reality warping. Given the current situation, leaving an opening like that would just get Hunger killed. Gramps has got Age over us, and Treachery is his game due to his soul evocation being Administration of what passes as a government.

Something, something Isshin always espoused: Hesitation is The Feet.
 
A Wind Full of Knives
A Wind Full of Knives

"Fine," Hunger said, after a moment's thought. "If you've thought through the logistical implications, you can come with us, though we won't provide any guarantee of safety. This path is dangerous and will only grow more so."

He would trust Letrizia's judgement on this matter, at least for now. The young duchess was in many ways naive. It was sometimes hard to remember that she was a veteran warrior entrusted with her nation's greatest superweapon. He believed she had the wherewithal to consider matters objectively when truly serious decisions, like this, came about.

"Thank you so much!" Aeira bowed again, even more deeply than before. "Yes, I have set up an account for an escrow company into which you can deposit funds now and remotely. The money will be released to my family on a time-delayed basis, assuming you intend to pay upfront with cash, and returned to you if my service is not satisfactory. One of my classmates has an Element that allows for limited-throughput communication across the Voyaging Realm. It's not totally reliable, but we should be able to get signal at least one day in ten. That will also enable me to slowly navigate back to the Sovereignty if we must part ways. I can bunk with Letrizia and will bring my own supplies in terms of food and toiletries."

"You're prepared, that's good. We'll finally have someone responsible on the team." Hunger smiled lightly.

"That means she'll have to rein us in, hun!" Gisena grabbed his arm playfully. "How shocking! Now what will we do for fun?"

"Training," he deadpanned. "Speaking of which, Aeira, would you care for a spar? If I win, you'll give us a 10% discount, and if I lose, we'll double your pay."

Aeira made a startled noise and raised her hands. "I-I am sorry, but I do not think I can accept those terms. Even though you are being unconscionably generous, my family needs this money and I cannot accept anything less than the asking price."

"Hm." Hunger frowned slightly. "I hate to pry, but may I ask what your family is using the money for? If there are any points of leverage against you, we need to be informed in advance. We're trusting you to watch our backs against foes that are very capable and resourceful, often with varied supernatural capabilities."

Letrizia bit her lip. "Shoot. I hadn't considered that..."

Aeira smiled gently at her. "It is fine. Yes, my family is greatly in debt to government of the Elixir Sovereignty... we used to be on the founding council, but my grandmother and grandfather made several critical errors in business, wiping out our fortune and exposing us to our rivals. The back taxes alone have been crippling... All my life, my mother and father worked tirelessly to extricate us from debt, but their political enemies ensured they would never hold high station. However, I do not believe that such petty affairs in so remote a society as ours would hold much interest for your enemies."

"I see." There were a few ways such a vulnerability could come to bite them down the line, but it seemed unlikely for now. Something to keep an eye on, but it wasn't disqualifying. The main issue would be... "Your friend, who allows you to communicate across the Voyaging Realm, how does her Element operate? Do you trust this person?"

"Yes, absolutely." She nodded. "Her Element manifests only partially in the physical realm. The other half is bound not by space, but by emotional association. Only if we trust each other mutually and implicitly would the function work correctly."

"And she is diligent enough to keep you regularly updated on matters here?"

Aeira nodded again.

"In that case, welcome aboard." He reached out a hand for her to shake. Hesitantly, Aeira extended her own, pausing in the midst to remove her fingerless gloves. Her grip was firm but rigid, palms sweaty. Anxious beneath the mask.

"I know it may not seem like much to you," Aeira said, smiling timidly. "But this is truly a small fortune for my family. It will make our interest payments much more bearable. So, from the bottom of my heart, thank you again!"

"Don't thank me. Just carry your weight," Hunger admonished gruffly, but returned her smile with one of his own.

"You did it! I'm so proud of you!" Letrizia leapt over and grabbed Aeira in a hug.

"Mhm!" Aeira nodded happily.

They set out on their journey to the Temple once more. This time Verschlengorge was blanketed in a cloak of silken shadow which, if one were not looking specifically for him, diminished the salience of his presence in one's mind. It was an odd effect, the colossal machine seeming almost to fade into the background... not invisible nor inaudible, but unimportant, like a cliff or hillside, the clangor of his movements like construction noises far away.

This was the power of Aeira's Element, Shadowcord, which could be garrote or spear or binding weave; an assassin's Element which, aside from its attention-negating properties, also enhanced the agility of its wielder and nulled all sound by touch. Killer and victim would conclude their business in absolute silence, unnoticed even in busy crowds.

Gisena welcomed their newest party member warmly, though Aeira seemed powerfully intimidated by the superhuman Sorceress, unable to raise her voice above a whisper when addressing Gisena directly. Most of the time, Aeira stayed with Letrizia in her cockpit, the two teenagers chatting happily about Imperial society and the differences in its Elixir offshoot.

"That poor darling," Gisena smiled sadly, sitting alongside Hunger on Verschlengorge's shoulder. With the aid of Aeira's shadow, the number of Astral incursions targeting Verschlengorge had indeed decreased, though oddly not to zero. Thus there was no pressing need for comprehensive surveillance from its shoulder-side staff.

"She looks up to you," Hunger said, "She just can't express it very well."

"I know," Gisena replied airily, "But if it's that bad now, just think how tongue-tied she'll be after I finish my meditations! And your own force of presence has been steadily increasing as well. Soon it'll be difficult for either of us to speak plainly with ordinary people."

"Needs must," Hunger said. "The Apocryphal Curse will not stop escalating, so neither can we." This small sliver of inhumanity was a trifling price in the face of vengeance, though it did unsettle him slightly. But what was to be done about it? He frowned. Perhaps there was something to be done.

"Though," he continued, "as the Nullity Sorceress, one would think you would be most equipped of anyone to bring us back down to earth."

"And surrender this beautiful visage?" Gisena gasped. "I would never do that to you. Worry not, my captain, I could hardly bear to deprive you for even a moment! The teeming masses shall just have to withstand it."

Was she referring to the reduction of her presence, or his own? Down either path lay a trap, and if called out directly she would feign obliviousness, thus framing his observation as paranoia. Hunger shook his head amusedly.

"You're too clever for your own good, Gisena. What if you applied that genius to actually finishing those meditations of yours?"

She idly kicked a slender leg, leaning against his shoulder. "I can't, Aeira took the spot in the cockpit I was using to meditate! Don't worry, I'll be finished up and completely evolved by tomorrow morning, ready to help you take down the Temple. So enjoy my delightful presence while you can!"

"Good. You can keep watch while I take a nap."

Already they could see the Temple at far remove: the towering spires of its moon-clutching claw, the ivory swell of its dome against the wavering blue horizon. As before, they would have to navigate around to reach the front gate, a trip of several hours more. Hunger leaned back, settling in for the final leg of their journey.

Soon, he promised mentally, addressing the imprisoned Ring, willing his own to act as conduit. He did not know if the Rings could actually speak to one another, did not know if it was merely a futile gesture, but sought to offer whatever hope he could: the strength, perhaps, to resist for one day more, to deny its exploiters whatever power it could, here in this final hour. One way or another, your suffering ends soon.

---

The winner was [X] Fine. In light of your new Arete total, the build vote will be concluded below.

You have about 27 Arete. You may spend up to 28 with Arete debt.

[ ] Forebear's Blade: All-Defeating Stance - 28 Arete

Woe to he who would presume to resist the Forebear, for neither spell nor song nor storm of swords would find purchase against his impervious guard. Bowed kings, bowed wizards, bowed warriors of legend and worlds themselves, for there was no chance of triumph without knowing the form of victory, and to stand against the Forebear was to know only defeat. Consumes and replaces its pre-requisite stances.

+++++All Stats
5x Power of Ruin against all targets.
Powers deriving from the Forebear's Blade are perfectly defended from nullification of any kind, even that stemming from a lack of fundamental metaphysics.

All-Defeating: All external effects natural or supernatural which would harm, impede or negatively alter the wielder must contest the amplified Power of Ruin or be destroyed before reaching the wielder. Effectively the character automatically applies an incredibly powerful conceptual-level counterattack against all hostile effects.

In practice, this mitigates all Curses as per Magic-Defeating Stance and renders the character nigh-immune to most forms of harm, as all attacks are intercepted by an imperishable well of ablative Ruin. Only the mightiest of effects can even hope to pierce through, and often with severely reduced outcomes. Even the effects of enemy Pressure are largely nullified unless that Pressure is substantially mightier than the wielder's Pressure and Power of Ruin combined.

Holy Shit: To stand against the wielder is to know only defeat. The wielder's enemies know when they are beaten. Double the wielder's Charisma and Manipulation against characters individually weaker than him. Innate awareness of the character's strength penalizes any attempts to form organizations or conspiracies opposed to him.

*In light of this capacity, Hunger will pursue a military-based strategy against the Temple, discarding his earlier plans. Events such as this occur sparingly if at all, but changing circumstances are inescapable, and needs must.
*Hunger can defeat Avecarn with only moderate difficulty and has decent odds of soloing the entire Temple himself.
*A highly synergistic build: You've taken lots of +Might (and +Willpower, and the Stance grants both), which is multiplied by Edeldross, which scales the power of Ruin, which is quintupled by the stance, which reflexively opposes all hostile effects. Hunger becomes a nigh-invincible juggernaut for his power level, and his offensive might is tremendous due to that Ruin itself. He can safely focus on developing esoteric capabilities with Cut Through.
*There are situations where one might prefer to have Guile-Defeating Stance instead of All-Defeating Stance, and taking the latter does consume the former.

[ ] The Ring of Power: Crimson Flare - 25 Arete. (0 picks, but requires Chief Dominion)

Call'd the ring in direst hour;
Azure's brethren faces turned.
Yet came the Lord its cause to flower;
then saw its keepers, to ruin burned.

Forgotten not, the debt of Time
when all its kind had turned their backs;
Not Hunger ring, its steed to ride,
brought Temple low, rapine and sack.

And debt unpaid shall not abide.


The crimson jewel blazes with a hallowed, piercing light, its glory to outshine sun and stars, all made abject by its presence. This is attainment of a height that disdains mere power, the Jewel of Blood unveiled in truth.

Elevates the wielder's Rank by a variable amount [Currently: to 5]
+2 Rank for purposes of wielding the Chief Dominion.

If the Azure Ring is saved:
Further increases the scope, power, and control of the Chief Dominion, beyond even the limits of the Ruling Ring.*
Obsoletes and refunds: Augment Dominion: Blood, Sublime Transfusion, Ennobling
The Azure Ring will submit to the Crimson in the next contest of primacy.

*Example effects: Individuals can be Ennobled in hours, small populations in days, large populations in months. Levels above Ennoblement can be researched and acquired, potentially without Arete expenditure. Verschlengorge can be healed to Rank 6 in hours, to Rank 7 in days, to Rank 7.5 in weeks. Enemies of Rank 4 or lower can be rendered comatose with a gesture; those of merely equivalent Rank (5) would suffer crippling disadvantage.
*Hunger will try diplomacy first before moving onto combat
*He can offer them much, though it would still be a difficult task to sunder Avecarn from his civilization: stability is worth more than promises written on wind, and Hunger does not really have much interest in taking care of the Inner Temple society.
*Good odds in combat, very good odds of survival.
*Build towards the Trinity Special Advancement.

[ ] Renaissance Woman - 28 Arete

Not merely a genius of one generation, nor of one era; hers is a greatness of mind and spirit that arises perhaps only once in the lifetime of a species. All-conquering talent that bestrides all fields and masters them beyond compare: only this genuine polymath can be said to embody the complete essence - the true quintessence - of humanity in the Maiden's image. Only so exalted a paragon can glimpse the mortal facings of Heaven's Lathe and depart with mind unshattered.

A singularity of findross births a Sorceress. A meta-singularity of findross, births a Maiden.

*Gisena immediately acquires the Maiden-level Graces: True Perfecting Blade, True Nullity, and True Quintessence.
*Gisena, through observation of the mortal-perceptible components of Hunger's Progression, replicates the effects of the Lesser Remittance, Retinue, for up to one cardinality of infinite escalation.
*True Perfecting Blade: Massively improves Gisena's STR, AGI, CON, WITS and APP. Her physical parameters are modestly superior to Hunger's own. Her Wits and Appearance are tremendously superior to Hunger's own. Parameters will continue to increase over time.
*True Nullity: Gisena applies the effects of Grand Nullification upon all of Hunger's Curses; her nullity strikes with absolute force. This may improve over time.
*True Quintessence: Gisena is treated as if possessing the Total Eclipse Advancement.
*Her outrageously superhuman Appearance, Charisma and Wits can be classified as a high-grade memetic hazard, making infiltration of the Inner Temple quite trivial.
*Does not build towards a Special Artifact Advancement but also does not commit you to a path.

---

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Oof. I wanna be optimistic but, unfortunately, I'm nowhere Aurelia's foot's level of reality warping. Given the current situation, leaving an opening like that would just get Hunger killed. Gramps has got Age over us, and Treachery is his game due to his soul evocation being Administration of what passes as a government.

Something, something Isshin always espoused: Hesitation is The Feet.
Cathak Polemgaos come again, eh?

Hmm. I wonder how Avercarn feels about insolence...
 
[X] Forbear's Blade: All-Defeating Stance

Come at me Bro, tell me that Flare is better then this!
 
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[X] The Ring of Power: Crimson Flare

All defeating stance is very powerful, but I refused to get a second Sword EFB at this moment and that is that.
 
[X] Forbear's Blade: All-Defeating Stance

Holy Shit indeed. Jesus Christ. What more could you possibly want? We can just... beat the Temple. It's like being offered an option that says [ ] Win.
 
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