A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
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Even if it will, instead of the other reasonable alternative that it will also open up new options to save Arete, it isn't something that will happen next update, and the greater amount of Arete that we possess the greater the pull to conserve it for an ESB will be anyway.
Philosopher's Wreath is great, but is there really much wisdom in getting it now instead of focusing on Ruling Ring, earning that sweet sweet ++Progression and seeing what Philosopher's Wreath 2.0 (scratch that, 3.0) will allow us to gain?
Let's not fail now that we're so close, we'll have time for greedy picks when their worth will improve exponentially after a few updates (seriously, a single + progression is the difference between a +3 Stat boost to a +5 one, a ++ to progression related to our most interesting options will be so sweet).
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Haha, the cap is great.
This is the most comprehensive list iirc
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DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
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I agree. But it's pretty tempting. I am hoping for something similar to the Zang Kong reveal. There's always an Ring above Rings!
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It should, I remember something about it though I can not find a WoG quote, it would be nice if someone else could confirm it. Here I am though with another quote for way back when Rihaku was explaining to us Ruling Ring:
That's an order of magnitude increase! Would be nice to be even worthier of our title of being a Progression-type, don't you agree?
Talace
It must be raining somewhere else!
I think manipulation was a stat introduced in the Bait mini-update.
I think by sacrifice, he means that we're now forced to split picks between the new magic system and actual Evening Sky upgrades.
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Rihaku
The Internet
Manipulation is social manipulation.
Looks like Evening Sky - Philosopher's Wreath has started to pull ahead, at least in raw votes! Interesting... what magic system do you intend to get / buff with it? Surgecraft seems the most likely candidate, but there are other options. Hm, that'd be a 700% increase in Surgecraft learning speed, you could do quite a lot with Edeldross after only a few battles with such conditions!
Though Apocryphal-free time is at a premium, there's something to be said for impressing your legend into the local sphere of either the Sovereignty or the Temple itself. It would help your Rank gains significantly, allowing you to take on far less dangerous missions for only slightly less Rank! A protracted siege of the Temple civilization, or some kind of serious impact on the Sovereignty, would be able to accomplish that for related feats.
Looks like Evening Sky - Philosopher's Wreath has started to pull ahead, at least in raw votes! Interesting... what magic system do you intend to get / buff with it? Surgecraft seems the most likely candidate, but there are other options. Hm, that'd be a 700% increase in Surgecraft learning speed, you could do quite a lot with Edeldross after only a few battles with such conditions!
Though Apocryphal-free time is at a premium, there's something to be said for impressing your legend into the local sphere of either the Sovereignty or the Temple itself. It would help your Rank gains significantly, allowing you to take on far less dangerous missions for only slightly less Rank! A protracted siege of the Temple civilization, or some kind of serious impact on the Sovereignty, would be able to accomplish that for related feats.
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
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This started as an examination of a popular build option and then turned into a full analysis of the training options. I put my argument outline in the spoiler at the end. Words: 1465
TL;DR: Don't Vote for Ennoblement; Do Vote for Magnitude; Definitely Don't Vote for Experimentation
Thus far, the thread has vociferously opposed nearly all opportunities to socialize with potential recruits. Even the most recent option "Stay and Train" option was opposed by a contingent of voters with ethical concerns about recruiting 18 year olds for a dangerous expedition. This objection is not unreasonable though there are arguments to be made in either direction about whether it is justified.
What has me concerned is the degree to which this option's power rests on growth over time. "Ennobling" a race like the Dunedain from Middle Earth is certainly interesting, but it doesn't do much to solve the problem of the Temple facing us right now. The blurb notes that boosts only become permanent if applied "continuously over a long period," defined for individuals as "a few weeks." Its secondary benefit is that "Lifespan improves by fourfold." If we do not survive the temple, our companions' lifespan is irrelevant.
The primary enhancements of ennoblement may even be overestimated. The blurb specifies "up to +++All Stats," which is not the same as a guarantee of +++All Stats. The secondary enhancement is a +.5 rank to a maximum of 3.5. This is a really exceptional boost that I don't want to downplay, but I'm not certain it will apply to Gisena and Letrizia. They are talented and charismatic characters with an outsized ability to affect the world. It doesn't seem outlandish to estimate their rank is already 3.5 or above.
Instead, this enhancement seems to enhance either (or both) of two strategies: diplomacy with the Temple or Recruitment of High Elementalists (surgecasters). Diplomacy with the Temple involves the creative idea to offer a powerful civilization the opportunity to get rid of their powerbase and receive alterations at the physical and metaphysical level from the Man that they surrendered to. On a purely narrative level this would be sick as hell, but from a simulationist perspective we aren't likely to roll the Nat100 required to make this happen.
Recruitment of the Teens would admittedly make this upgrade pretty lucrative, however. Some amount of plusses to All Stats combined with +.5 Rank would go a long way towards helping the teens survive in real combat at Hunger's level. Is the thread willing to risk the deaths of young recruits? Voting history says no. I think that the more likely scenario, if we recruit anybody at all, is a utility specialist that stays outside the Temple with Letrizia and Versch. A marginal boost of stats will therefore have relatively unimpressive returns, even with +.5 Rank. (Again, the rank boost is pretty impressive for those who qualify for its boost!)
The primary advantage of Magnitude is that it improves our ability to use Edeldross to withstand Nullity. This feature is given in update "Vertiginous Heights" with the precise wording of: "Can ablate away to cancel equivalent quantities of Nullity, allowing for easy combat alongside Gisena with a bit of practice." Note that the Edeldross "ablates away"; this suggests that improving our rate of output will allow Gisena to let loose with more/stronger blasts of Nullity.
The boost to +All Stats is nothing to laugh at, either. People who like All Stats always point out that Luck is a stat, so jot that down. But also: +WILL also applies to our physical stats because of Uttermost!
The immediate combat effect of this option improves the precision and placement of our buffs and effects. Specifically, this addresses the risk of accidentally buffing our enemies. However, we only run the risk of buffing enemies if they are engaged in melee with our own allies fighting on the front line. So far, the Thread has been unable or unwilling to vote to find allies. The current prospective recruits are all teenagers. There have already been objections to dragging young people into danger; this option only shines if we put them in front-line combat.
There is a risk that this selection results in no tangible benefit for Hunger after an entire day of training. We have a very limited number of Apochryphal-free days remaining. It would be pretty devastating to risk getting actually nothing for our effort. We could've killed Rotbeastie spawn for coin and bought Gisena a gun instead!
Supposing that we get a good roll, the potent physical benefits offered by this pseudo-grace come at the expense of not taking the additional +All Stats offered by Magnitude. That means the pseudo-grace gives a boost to STR/CON/AGI at the expense of not getting an increase in INT / WITS / WIS / CHA / APP / MAN / PROT / LUCK / WILL*. Getting a physical boost by losing all those stats (which also boost physical stats somewhat) feels really painful.
*Note that the boost to WILL from Magnitude would also apply to our physical stats due to Uttermost.
It isn't going to win because SAVE GANG is strong, but there is an interesting synergy in the blurbs of Exalted Spirit & Sublime Transfusion. Exalted Spirit grants +INT, +CHA to those under blood enhancement. If Sublime Transformation qualifies as "blood enhancement" then our patients would be both smarter and have stronger force-of-will. This suggests a doctor-archetype; Exalted-Transfusion Hunger would be an excellent Battlefield medic.
That's somewhat lackluster until you realize that Verschlengorge was immune to our blood enhancement because of the Rank differential. But Sublime Transfusion has a default Rank of 7. We could make Versch. a more efficient and intimidating killing machine (+INT, +CHA for an aeons-old Death-Skyscraper optimized to the practice and implementation of Warfare would be terrifying.)
TL;DR: Don't Vote for Ennoblement; Do Vote for Magnitude; Definitely Don't Vote for Experimentation
This pick seems to be popular despite being inherently party-oriented and explicitly long-term.
Thus far, the thread has vociferously opposed nearly all opportunities to socialize with potential recruits. Even the most recent option "Stay and Train" option was opposed by a contingent of voters with ethical concerns about recruiting 18 year olds for a dangerous expedition. This objection is not unreasonable though there are arguments to be made in either direction about whether it is justified.
What has me concerned is the degree to which this option's power rests on growth over time. "Ennobling" a race like the Dunedain from Middle Earth is certainly interesting, but it doesn't do much to solve the problem of the Temple facing us right now. The blurb notes that boosts only become permanent if applied "continuously over a long period," defined for individuals as "a few weeks." Its secondary benefit is that "Lifespan improves by fourfold." If we do not survive the temple, our companions' lifespan is irrelevant.
The primary enhancements of ennoblement may even be overestimated. The blurb specifies "up to +++All Stats," which is not the same as a guarantee of +++All Stats. The secondary enhancement is a +.5 rank to a maximum of 3.5. This is a really exceptional boost that I don't want to downplay, but I'm not certain it will apply to Gisena and Letrizia. They are talented and charismatic characters with an outsized ability to affect the world. It doesn't seem outlandish to estimate their rank is already 3.5 or above.
Instead, this enhancement seems to enhance either (or both) of two strategies: diplomacy with the Temple or Recruitment of High Elementalists (surgecasters). Diplomacy with the Temple involves the creative idea to offer a powerful civilization the opportunity to get rid of their powerbase and receive alterations at the physical and metaphysical level from the Man that they surrendered to. On a purely narrative level this would be sick as hell, but from a simulationist perspective we aren't likely to roll the Nat100 required to make this happen.
Recruitment of the Teens would admittedly make this upgrade pretty lucrative, however. Some amount of plusses to All Stats combined with +.5 Rank would go a long way towards helping the teens survive in real combat at Hunger's level. Is the thread willing to risk the deaths of young recruits? Voting history says no. I think that the more likely scenario, if we recruit anybody at all, is a utility specialist that stays outside the Temple with Letrizia and Versch. A marginal boost of stats will therefore have relatively unimpressive returns, even with +.5 Rank. (Again, the rank boost is pretty impressive for those who qualify for its boost!)
This is the option that makes it most likely for our Imaginary Element to be used in combat. Hunger has fought alone or in close proximity to Gisena thus far. This makes me think that the concern about accidentally buffing enemies is overblown in the very-short-term horizon of invading the Temple.
The primary advantage of Magnitude is that it improves our ability to use Edeldross to withstand Nullity. This feature is given in update "Vertiginous Heights" with the precise wording of: "Can ablate away to cancel equivalent quantities of Nullity, allowing for easy combat alongside Gisena with a bit of practice." Note that the Edeldross "ablates away"; this suggests that improving our rate of output will allow Gisena to let loose with more/stronger blasts of Nullity.
The boost to +All Stats is nothing to laugh at, either. People who like All Stats always point out that Luck is a stat, so jot that down. But also: +WILL also applies to our physical stats because of Uttermost!
This is the option that provides the second-best boost to our new Magic System. Potentially unlocking findross is the most important feature of this option. Findross is much more potent/refined, as we see from Gisena. However, research into the properties, generation, and application of findross is a long-term project that we can only complete if we survive the temple.
The immediate combat effect of this option improves the precision and placement of our buffs and effects. Specifically, this addresses the risk of accidentally buffing our enemies. However, we only run the risk of buffing enemies if they are engaged in melee with our own allies fighting on the front line. So far, the Thread has been unable or unwilling to vote to find allies. The current prospective recruits are all teenagers. There have already been objections to dragging young people into danger; this option only shines if we put them in front-line combat.
Of our three options for training, this option provides the third best boost.
There is a risk that this selection results in no tangible benefit for Hunger after an entire day of training. We have a very limited number of Apochryphal-free days remaining. It would be pretty devastating to risk getting actually nothing for our effort. We could've killed Rotbeastie spawn for coin and bought Gisena a gun instead!
Supposing that we get a good roll, the potent physical benefits offered by this pseudo-grace come at the expense of not taking the additional +All Stats offered by Magnitude. That means the pseudo-grace gives a boost to STR/CON/AGI at the expense of not getting an increase in INT / WITS / WIS / CHA / APP / MAN / PROT / LUCK / WILL*. Getting a physical boost by losing all those stats (which also boost physical stats somewhat) feels really painful.
*Note that the boost to WILL from Magnitude would also apply to our physical stats due to Uttermost.
It isn't going to win because SAVE GANG is strong, but there is an interesting synergy in the blurbs of Exalted Spirit & Sublime Transfusion. Exalted Spirit grants +INT, +CHA to those under blood enhancement. If Sublime Transformation qualifies as "blood enhancement" then our patients would be both smarter and have stronger force-of-will. This suggests a doctor-archetype; Exalted-Transfusion Hunger would be an excellent Battlefield medic.
That's somewhat lackluster until you realize that Verschlengorge was immune to our blood enhancement because of the Rank differential. But Sublime Transfusion has a default Rank of 7. We could make Versch. a more efficient and intimidating killing machine (+INT, +CHA for an aeons-old Death-Skyscraper optimized to the practice and implementation of Warfare would be terrifying.)
Don't Vote Ennoblement
- This pick requires recruits,
- but the thread has avoided recruits, generally
- Some have already expressed objections to recruiting teens, specifically
- Much of the pick's power seems to focus on very-long-term benefits; our time horizon might end at the Temple
- The benefits may be overstated:
- "up to +++All Stats" is different from a guarantee of +++All Stats
- Gisena and/or Letrizia may already have Rank too high to benefit
- This option boosts Diplomacy or Recruitment
- Diplomacy sounds cool as hell but will probably have a low success %
- Recruitment is most likely to net a support character for whom the boost of .5 Rank and "up to +++All Stats" will be much less dramatic.
- Makes it more likely for Edeldross to be used in combat
- Hunger fights alone or close-to Gisena
- Risk of buffing enemies is small
- Hunger fights alone or close-to Gisena
- Improves ability to use Edeldross to withstand Nullity
- Edeldross "ablates away" when hit by Nullity
- Increasing output of Edeldross increases amount of Nullity Gisena can use
- +All Stats is great
- LUCK is a stat!
- WILL also applies to physical benefits
- Most impressive feature is "complex applications" as a signpost to findross research/understanding
- Findross generation & research is a long term project
- This feature is unlikely to pay off before the temple.
- Precise buffs and better placement of effects is most important if we have allies fighting on the front line
- So far the Thread has not been willing to vote for martial allies.
- Our prospective recruits are currently all teenagers
- Much less effective purchase if we only recruit support characters (or no characters)
- So far the Thread has not been willing to vote for martial allies.
- Risks no benefit for Hunger from day of training
- Uses entire day of Apochryphal mitigation
- Potent physical benefit comes at the cost of boost to rare stats
- Opportunity cost is not choosing "Magnitude"
- Additional boost to STR/CON/AGI comes at the expense of losing Magnitude's additional boost to INT, WITS, WIS, CHA, APP, MAN, PROT, LUCK, WILL*
- Magnitude's boost to WILL also improves physical stats so taking Experimentation loses out on the physical buff twice over
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DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
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It's an Evening Sky upgrade. It's just one that focuses on using it to augment our magic and our allies. It's like people think +Prot picks are the only things that should be considered such..
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Our current Blood Advancements(Vigor and Quickening) are result of Progression+. Progression++ will make all picks to Blood Advancements what they are now to standard options.
We don't particularly care, as All Stats++ is tertiary benefit. We are getting Ring for Progression++ primarily and for reality warping as distant secondary benefit. Stats are just a nice bonus.
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- Pindorama
If you are someone who wants the Evening Sky to be more relevant, then you actually want Ruling Ring as soon as possible so that the +Blood Progression gets converted into general ++Progression, making Evening Sky picks much more competitive. So Philosopher's Wreath is absolutely against your interests.
If we generate 2 Arete here we'd need around 8 more? If the spar with the kids gets us at least two picks; we can use those to get Preeminence, and then the Ring would be in range for a push. It's easier with two extra Arete of course, but it'it be impossible if we spend 7 here. So it's far less bad comparatively, really.
Reasons you should pick Ring:
1. Praxis. Right now we have mostly Royal Sword Praxis options available to us. We'll be that much closer to the Imperial Sword Praxis with ++Progression.
2. Magic. There is such a thing as delayed gratification, especially if we don't have to wait that long. Just think how much more awesome the magic options will become!
3. Healing. Think how much better finally getting rid of all those awful wounds will feel! Not to mention the increased efficiency.Perhaps we can get more bang for our buck if we sacrifice a healed eye?! Ignore that, my inner minmaxer is acting up again.
4. Accelerated development in general. Unless we immediately get into a boss fight, we'll just need a few fairly safe fights to get benefits that Hunger normally only gets from recklessly risking his life. And if we're willing to engage in more risky fights, I can barely imagine the advantages we could reap.
5. The Reality Warping of the Ring might synergize really well with our Surgecraft and magic systems in general.
6. We might learn how to forge more Rings! After all, it is the Ruling Ring, no way there is no such option available. Hell, if Ennobling would be tempting to the Templars, imagine how they would salivate over the possibility of getting multiple Rings. If you want to tempt them, do it right.
7. Saving for further EFBs like Pillars/Eclipse/whatever is going to become so much easier when picks become more valuable. If our growth won't be dependent on Arete as much anymore, we'll be able to accumulate it with greater ease. SAVE to SAVE even better! It should be an option even more forbidden than the Interdict of Cognition, but the Foremost knew barring a Cursebearer's way to Progression was futile.
It's true, there is the contest of primacy which I'm honestly also very worried about. But the Ring will pay for itself fairly quickly and let us exceed Apocrypha even quicker, so I'm willing to take that risk now that we have Cut Through and we're about to get into a series of Temple fights. We'll be gathering momentum, so let's shoot it straight into the stratosphere!
1. Praxis. Right now we have mostly Royal Sword Praxis options available to us. We'll be that much closer to the Imperial Sword Praxis with ++Progression.
2. Magic. There is such a thing as delayed gratification, especially if we don't have to wait that long. Just think how much more awesome the magic options will become!
3. Healing. Think how much better finally getting rid of all those awful wounds will feel! Not to mention the increased efficiency.
4. Accelerated development in general. Unless we immediately get into a boss fight, we'll just need a few fairly safe fights to get benefits that Hunger normally only gets from recklessly risking his life. And if we're willing to engage in more risky fights, I can barely imagine the advantages we could reap.
5. The Reality Warping of the Ring might synergize really well with our Surgecraft and magic systems in general.
6. We might learn how to forge more Rings! After all, it is the Ruling Ring, no way there is no such option available. Hell, if Ennobling would be tempting to the Templars, imagine how they would salivate over the possibility of getting multiple Rings. If you want to tempt them, do it right.
7. Saving for further EFBs like Pillars/Eclipse/whatever is going to become so much easier when picks become more valuable. If our growth won't be dependent on Arete as much anymore, we'll be able to accumulate it with greater ease. SAVE to SAVE even better! It should be an option even more forbidden than the Interdict of Cognition, but the Foremost knew barring a Cursebearer's way to Progression was futile.
It's true, there is the contest of primacy which I'm honestly also very worried about. But the Ring will pay for itself fairly quickly and let us exceed Apocrypha even quicker, so I'm willing to take that risk now that we have Cut Through and we're about to get into a series of Temple fights. We'll be gathering momentum, so let's shoot it straight into the stratosphere!
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You've forgot another possibility - upgraded EFBs!
Don't spend people, HODL!
Purposely drawing out the Temple conquest doesn't seem like a good play, toppling that suspiciously rotten mountain in the Elixir's skyline and a quick ticker tape parade afterwards might be worth it though. I wonder if any of these High Elementalists may have secretly snuck out to scout the beast, and could give us better estimates on how feasible a quick kill might be.
A pity there's no real way to maintain contact in the voyaging realm, if we recruited some of them a "Letters home" deal could turn the place into a continuing source for magnifying future exploits.
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Gaining Philosopher Wreath sacrifices even more of Evening Sky's relevancy as a more solid part of our panoply. @Talace got the right of it. Which ties in to the below quote, since it seems to be the thought process that might coincide with why PW is being picked up.
From the blurbs provided: Philosopher's Wreath is an available upgrade thanks to Evening Sky, and not an upgrade to Evening Sky itself.
Philosopher's Wreath is the Evening Sky offloading more of its relevance into another system. Surgecraft, which seems to be the most popular, for this particular case. PW boosts learning speed and effectivity of a magic system available to us. Note that it enhances a different magic system...and not the Evening Sky itself.
Comparing it to, say, InkSky, InkSky increases the parameters of Evening Sky itself as well as strengthening the future picks related to Evening Sky. It's a lot like what happened to Echoes when it became the Blood Advancements.
And as others have said, PW would end up splitting even more votes away from Evening Sky as a panoply. I.e. less stats and utility that can be gotten from improving Evening Sky itself instead of just one other system.
Plus it eats up 7 arete. to only boost progress for one thing.
As compared to Ruling Ring which gives ++Progression to...everything we have. Just not a useful pick this round, even if it increases the value of staying and training.
DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
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Why you should vote for Philosopher's Wreath.
- Previously, we voted to train our Eldeldross manipulation, this Evening Sky upgrades is extremely synergistic with our previous choice and this vote. 500% increase to Eldeldross training shouldn't be underestimated alongside the substantial increase in both the variety and the conceptual potency of effects available to it. Let's maximize the effect of our training from here!
- This triples the rate of advancement for our allies where magic is concerned. Hereby increasing our only anti-magic defense by empowering Gisena and making Litz advance further in Sharpbright.
- This increase in advancement for both us and Gisena means that she might be able to help us figure out an way to use Eldeldross to induce Coalescence in her, increasing her power massively. Perhaps, we can also make Litz an Sorceress at some point?
- This also increases our dump state, Wisdom!
- The Increase in might this option grants would make our future actions in the Temple safer. Not Dying bros UNITE!
- Previously, we voted to train our Eldeldross manipulation, this Evening Sky upgrades is extremely synergistic with our previous choice and this vote. 500% increase to Eldeldross training shouldn't be underestimated alongside the substantial increase in both the variety and the conceptual potency of effects available to it. Let's maximize the effect of our training from here!
- This triples the rate of advancement for our allies where magic is concerned. Hereby increasing our only anti-magic defense by empowering Gisena and making Litz advance further in Sharpbright.
- This increase in advancement for both us and Gisena means that she might be able to help us figure out an way to use Eldeldross to induce Coalescence in her, increasing her power massively. Perhaps, we can also make Litz an Sorceress at some point?
- This also increases our dump state, Wisdom!
- The Increase in might this option grants would make our future actions in the Temple safer. Not Dying bros UNITE!
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DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
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The way Evening Sky grants us utility is through giving us access to Magic systems and empowering them. Magic is one of its domain for an reason. Evening Sky itself is not an magic system and shouldn't be treated as such.
If we use your narrow definition, than the only proper Evening Sky upgrades would be those which grant +Prot.and other defensive abilities of some sort.
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