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A Simple Transaction I

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Unelemental said:
Notice how different their descriptions are.
Bloodslayer:

Star-Blade Saint:

The variance in stats and everything else is enough to enable different strategies going forward. We might get distracted by potential-type or neat-looking shinies along the way, but experience proves that the fastest way for a Progression-Type Cursebearer to advance while he's still in his infant stage (where we still are now) is just to grab as much immediate power as he can and climb the fucking ladder with all he's got. Everything else just detracts from our advantages.

And it's not like blood-based advancements won't benefit Gisena as well, we'll just use that increased speed of XP earning to improve our buffs, which will do a hell of a lot to guarantee her health and well-being.
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Not quite as good at using immediate power is another way of saying slightly less powerful in combat, which is fine since combat isn't the only thing that's important!
Rihaku said:
*Uses the default ++++AGI, ++++STR, +30% attack speed Psuedo-Grace
*The safest overall option, though not the highest short-term power
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Being the option least likely to die it's also the option most likely to survive to pick up advancements later! If we won't pick Gisena buffs now when it's explicitly the safest option with the second most immediate power as well when will we ever get them?
Rihaku said:
The amount of absolute gain per Echo is steadily increasing, but the percentage increase to your total capabilities is decreasing. For example, adding 2 to 2 is a smaller absolute gain, but higher percentage gain, than adding 5 to 1 billion.
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Ah okay that makes sense. Good now while we're low in arete and our stats are weak not so good later when we can afford to pick the super scaling options that make gods from men.
 
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[X] Bloodslayer
[X] Study the Blood

I'm pretty even between the two, I certainly won't cry if Star Saint wins. But ultimately the line about more powerful blood advancements convinced me. I think Star Saint is actually better in a lot of cases now, but if Bloodslayer has the short term power to reap picks, and more powerful picks unlocked by picking it, it just seems too good.

I'm interested in Study Versh to open up the option to farm stronger Astral beasts instead of risking it in the Temple, but it seems like no one else is. In that case Study the Blood seems the natural combo with Bloodslayer.
 
LordOfMurder said:
Not quite as good at using immediate power is another way of saying slightly less powerful in combat, which is fine since combat isn't the only thing that's important!
Being the option least likely to die it's also the option most likely to survive to pick up advancements later! If we won't pick Gisena buffs now when it's explicitly the safest option with the second most immediate power as well when will we ever get them?
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When it's part of the overall package that improves our general buffs, like blood advancements? We don't have to focus so strongly on Gisena for her to benefit.

One of the options says we can hunt aggressively, the other doesn't, that doesn't sound like a slight difference to me. And I completely agree that there is more to life than combat, even for one such as Hunger. But we're at the Temple now, hell-bent on finishing it within a short time-frame...
 
Sickul said:
[X] Bloodslayer
[X] Study the Blood

I'm pretty even between the two, I certainly won't cry if Star Saint wins. But ultimately the line about more powerful blood advancements convinced me. I think Star Saint is actually better in a lot of cases now, but if Bloodslayer has the short term power to reap picks, and more powerful picks unlocked by picking it, it just seems too good.

I'm interested in Study Versh to open up the option to farm stronger Astral beasts instead of risking it in the Temple, but it seems like no one else is. In that case Study the Blood seems the natural combo with Bloodslayer.
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Study the blood is apparently the combo for Heedless since it could use all the power it can get. For the other builds the incremental gain isn't worth sacrificing a social +.

I can't convince you to reconsider? Saint is the build most likely to survive right now and doesn't lost too much power in exchange for the Gisena utility.
Rihaku said:
*Hunger feels that this, and stronger builds, can somewhat safely venture into the outskirts of the Middle Temple with varying degrees of success. Enemies much stronger than the Goldenrod Bowman can be felled by the combination of STATS + Thousand Cuts.
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According to this Saint's is perfectly fine for farming the Middle Temple since it's stronger than the balance option.

Unelemental said:
When it's part of the overall package that improves our general buffs, like blood advancements? We don't have to focus so strongly on Gisena for her to benefit.

One of the options says we can hunt aggressively, the other doesn't, that doesn't sound like a slight difference to me. And I completely agree that there is more to life than combat, even for one such as Hunger. But we're at the Temple now, hell-bent on finishing it within a short time-frame...
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Bloodslayers description uses aggressively because it's better writing. When their rates of advancement are directly compared Saint's rate is described as "not quite as good" which doesn't sound like too big of a difference. We'd also have to pay arete and picks for the general buff options, which is apparently quite difficult to convince the thread to do.

One of the better ideas for quickly completing the temple was to wait for the debuff to wear off and then go tp the encampment to hire some adventurers to buff with the ring to help us beat the temple. Saint has an advantage here since their debuff only lasts two days and the +cha is pretty useful in navigating Tyrant's doom and convincing people to help us. Bloodslayer doesn't help us in that respect since it only buffs ourself and not our social stats.
 
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Honestly, I just fucking love Bloodslayer.

It has great mid-long term potential, synergy, further empowerment options for allies at some point, maximum power to farm this place so as not to waste the apocryphal free time and it makes Hunger less willing to kill himself, which is pretty good, if we care about his mental health in the slightest.

It also has has going further down the glorious path of Ringbearer Wizard who SORDS. A classic.

What more can you want really!?
 
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[X] Speak to Letrizia
[x]Heedless War

Think of the lore people. Also, now that we don't have to worry about exhausted, we maintain our ability to use RANK with this build.
@BrainInAJar Going for Heedless war per agreement
 
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LordOfMurder said:
Blood use aggressively because it's better writing. When their rates of advancement are directly compared Saint's rate is described as "not quite as good" which doesn't sound like too big of a difference.

One of the better ideas for quickly completing the temple was to wait for the debuff to wear off and then go tp the encampment to hire some adventurers to buff with the ring to help us beat the temple. Saint has an advantage here since their debuff only lasts two days and the +cha is pretty useful in navigating Tyrant's doom and convincing people to help us. Bloodslayer doesn't help us in that respect since it only buffs ourself and not our social stats.
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The 'aggressive' part is not the only place that notes the difference, the Saint mostly uses words like 'defensively' and 'safely'. When one build recommends aggressive exploration and the other puts emphasis on safety, it's pretty clear which is oriented where. Which is unsurprising, as it takes much better advantage of Thousand Cuts.

Speaking of the debuff, apparently blood advancements can solve this issue fairly quickly, which is something I hoped for but didn't expect. What a steal!

And the Tyrant's cloak of might and fear is one of the best social bonuses we can get now. Being stronger will do more to make people listen than a single +Cha.
 
I really want the Gisena buff, and I think that build is good and will be better at a lot of fights then the Bloodslayer will be. But the power plus the unlocked advancements plus the reduced wounds make Bloodslayer hard to pass up.

Star Saint could be a lot better, but there's so much more unknown about it.

[X] Bloodslayer
[X] Speak to Gisena

Like I said Study Versh is my first thought, but at that point it looks like it would be throwing away my vote. Gisena's seems close to a relationship breakthrough, seems like the most likely to reap benefit for us.

Zea can wait until we are making plans to go to civilization, I'm sure her info could help us now, but I don't logically see how it would.

If something else catches up I will probably unite behind Star if I think it has the best chance, I don't want a build without 1k Cuts to win.
 
[X] Study the Blood
[X] Bloodslayer

After thinking about it for a bit, my opinion is that the point at which we finally take Ruling Ring is the point at which we begin winning. But playing in that direction right now isn't going to work; we need a more rapid scaling of power to really leverage the Temple as a source of growth.

The remaining Domains and Preeminences might be too greedy right now, but I'd bet my left nut that they're really useful and applicable for, say, conquering and ruling an incredibly large chunk of territory. So we'll have strong incentive to get them later. And also, I think we'll definitely get the Ruinous Valor Stances later: 7 Arete no picks for separated half-step curse mitigation is incredibly fucking cheap.

Exploiting Blood conceptual manipulation is probably a productive line for increasing our power, even given the obvious hole! I think we might finally get to see the 3-Pick exploit /restore choice for Hunger's lung if we do, too. Also, I want to see where this development tree ends. If we can get up to some Worth the Candle style Blood Magic shenanigans, I'll be chuffed. (Infinite Hypertension Feat, here we go! Hunger pops into his ghost form and his corpse detonates into a hypersonic wave of ex-plasma plasma).

And also I'm tired of hearing about Thousand Cuts. I'm tired of seeing it. I'm tired of arguments about it. I'm tired of builds that focus on it. Can we just take the fucking really strong combat upgrade and be done with it?
 
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[X] Study the Blood
[X] Bloodslayer

The only downside for me is the anti synergy with our other forms but even that can be fixed in the future. All aboard the Blood Train!
 
I didn't even notice there was a build consolation post, silly me.

[X] Bloodslayer

All in on blood, we have +Progression and it's reasonably powerful!

[X] Speak to Gisena

Let Hunger heal and love again~. Or you know, get to know our most valuable ally better, either one works.
 
Gisena Gang: Consider Speak with Gisena!

Interesting that Star-Blade Saint has such a massive lead compared to Speak with Gisena.
 
Unelemental said:
The 'aggressive' part is not the only place that notes the difference, the Saint mostly uses words like 'defensively' and 'safely'. When one build recommends aggressive exploration and the other puts emphasis on safety, it's pretty clear which is oriented where. Which is unsurprising, as it takes much better advantage of Thousand Cuts.

Speaking of the debuff, apparently blood advancements can solve this issue fairly quickly, which is something I hoped for but didn't expect. What a steal!

And the Tyrant's cloak of might and fear is one of the best social bonuses we can get now. Being stronger will do more to make people listen than a single +Cha.
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Yes Saint is better at not dying than Blood. I don't think blood advancements which likely cost arete or picks and will have to compete with other options are the answer to a problem that can be solved simply by picking Saint instead.

Why waste arete mitigating debuffs when we can just take the build that takes the short term riskier debuff while still being less likely to die! We had the argument of strength versus Cha in a previous update and apparently Cha wins as far as better for social options is concerned.
DarkSideBard said:
[X] Study the Blood
[X] Bloodslayer

After thinking about it for a bit, my opinion is that the point at which we finally take Ruling Ring is the point at which we begin winning. But playing in that direction right now isn't going to work; we need a more rapid scaling of power to really leverage the Temple as a source of growth.

The remaining Domains and Preeminences might be too greedy right now, but I'd bet my left nut that they're really useful and applicable for, say, conquering and ruling an incredibly large chunk of territory. So we'll have strong incentive to get them later. And also, I think we'll definitely get the Ruinous Valor Stances later: 7 Arete no picks for separated half-step curse mitigation is incredibly fucking cheap.

Exploiting Blood conceptual manipulation is probably a productive line for increasing our power, even given the obvious hole! I think we might finally get to see the 3-Pick exploit /restore choice for Hunger's lung if we do, too. Also, I want to see where this development tree ends. If we can get up to some Worth the Candle style Blood Magic shenanigans, I'll be chuffed. (Infinite Hypertension Feat, here we go! Hunger pops into his ghost form and his corpse detonates into a hypersonic wave of ex-plasma plasma).

And also I'm tired of hearing about Thousand Cuts. I'm tired of seeing it. I'm tired of arguments about it. I'm tired of builds that focus on it. Can we just take the fucking really strong combat upgrade and be done with it?
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The +progression effect of blood means once we take one blood option we're incentivized to take nothing but blood options! Given the ever present danger of the temple and how blood options will give more bang for our buck I doubt we'll be taking anything else if it wins this update.

If you're a fan of ring options then vote for Saint since it loses it's debuff sooner without picks and lets us get back on track to buy Ruling Ring straight away!

Maragas said:
The only downside for me is the anti synergy with our other forms but even that can be fixed in the future. All aboard the Blood Train!
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Hunger actually doesn't know if the anti-synergy can be fixed. Even if it can it won't be in the next few updates and will likely cost us in arete and picks essentially meaning we'd have to pay for our forms twice!
 
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For Bloodslayer we'd probably have to go somewhere with Ghosts like the ones out of Sorcerously Advanced or something to have good odds of finding a way of adding blood to our second stage. Ghosts there are entirely capable of having blood. This is not a Sorcerously Advanced crossover though.
 
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LordOfMurder said:
Yes Saint is better at not dying than Blood. I don't think blood advancements which likely cost arete or picks and will have to compete with other options are the answer to a problem that can be solved simply by picking Saint instead.

Why waste arete mitigating debuffs when we can just take the build that takes the short term riskier debuff while still being less likely to die! We had the argument of strength versus Cha in a previous update and apparently Cha wins as far as better for social options is concerned.
The +progression effect of blood means once we take one blood option we're incentivized to take nothing but blood options! Given the ever present danger of the temple and how blood options will give more bang for our buck I doubt we'll be taking anything else if it wins this update.

If you're a fan of ring options then vote for Saint since it loses it's debuff sooner without picks and lets us get back on track to buy Ruling Ring straight away!

Hunger actually doesn't know if the anti-synergy can be fixed. Even if it can it won't be in the next few updates and will likely cost us in arete and picks essentially meaning we'd have to pay for our forms twice!
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The idea that we will only take blood options is not correct at all. There are plenty of options that have synergy with Quickening + Thousand cuts that don't cost arete! Like Ruinous Valor or ever faithful Echo of Forebear!

We can try saving our arete for Dominion and further at that point since now that we will have an attack scaling with our absurd stats and pick only options that have synergy with Q+TC, we can afford to focus on the Ring.
 
Honestly, a large part of why I'm voting for Saint is that I'm not sure when we'll ever take Gisena buffs if we don't take them now. I truly think that's important, especially when there have been several warning signs slipped into recent chapters indicating Gisena could soon fall off in effectiveness. This is a problem, because Gisena needs to stay relevant:

I truly think that Gisena is a force multiplier better than even the absurd buffs of Bloodslayer. Bloodslayer provides overwhelming might, but does relatively little to buttress us against esoteric effects that bypass our defenses or seek to inflict debuffs upon us.

And importantly, esoteric effects have been what have brought us closest to losing both the Magus fight, and the golden archer fight.

Gisena is a defensive buff that protects against such problems, and an offensive buff by helping us determine where to strike. And that's not even considering the as-of-yet unknown effects of her Sorcerous Advancement (was that the name?)

When we started this character, we voted to take a companion along as a Lesser Remittance. Gisena is a part of our build, an important part of our progression, and likely a key part of our emotional narrative as well. She is not an extra "exp dump". Her power is our power. Don't let her power fade relative to the scaling of the quest, lest she become irrelevant or worse - dead.
 
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