A Simple Transaction I

Wolfy · Jun 7, 2020

[X] No
[X] Hunger - Stranglethorn
[X] Retreat to the Antechamber

Stranglethorn doesn't spend much Arete, so you can get 7Arete option next Hunger proc. It also has direct synergy with FOR, so it would be quite easy to get 7AP option that has synergy with both. On the other hand, getting another 4 pick option, and one that would have synergy with FOR and wherever pick we take right now, is somewhat harder.

That 20% Rank gain is quite tasty; you essentially get FREE 0.2 Rank every 1 Rank, so its difference between being 5 and 5.2.

This particular enemy made me somewhat hesitant to get Vanguard.

Unelemental said:
Dreadnought also helps with Tired and Exhausted, and given our proclivities...

It appears that raw Con also helps with those conditions as well.

Byzantine · Jun 7, 2020

Rihaku said:
Interesting how so many voters are going all-in on offense or defense! I suppose that's the nature of this vote, but don't discount Echoes-based options! You could get something like Echo + Rank + Thousand Cuts and have a fairly balanced distribution of offense, defense, and utility from Rank! It's simple but effective!

...Isn't Stranglethorn+Vanguard actually a balanced build, given it gives both Con and Str and lets us bring backup?

Unelemental said:
Dreadnought also helps with Tired and Exhausted, and given our proclivities...

That is a good point.

I will just please beg Dreadnaught voters to return our eye. Something is hiding behind having two eyes worth To Shatter Heaven, and that makes me so very curious.

Shard · Jun 7, 2020

Making Tired 75% less bad and Exhausted 50% less bad overall is pretty important goven Form of Rage.

Box Lunch · Jun 7, 2020

Wolfy said:
This particular enemy made me somewhat hesitant to get Vanguard.

You can't take both? I thought Vanguard was 7 Arete, no picks.

Byzantine · Jun 7, 2020

Wolfy said:
Stranglethorn doesn't spend much Arete, so you can get 7Arete option next Hunger proc. It also has direct synergy with FOR, so it would be quite easy to get 7AP option that has synergy with both. On the other hand, getting another 4 pick option, and one that would have synergy with FOR and wherever pick we take right now, is somewhat harder.

Can I interest you in taking Vanguard as well so Gisena will have literally 80 Con?

I admit it reduces our ability to get Cuts any time soon, but the tanking potential broke the chart.

Box Lunch said:
You can't take both? I thought Vanguard was 7 Arete, no picks.

5 Arete. The option cost 7 because we previously did not have a 0-pick 2-arete precursor, but we bought that when we got Rage, so it only costs 5 now.

Shard · Jun 7, 2020

Byzantine said:
I will just please beg Dreadnaught voters to return our eye. Something is hiding behind having two eyes worth To Shatter Heaven, and that makes me so very curious.

Well first of, the artists have mentioned a preference for a 1-eye Lord Hunger (Odin!), and secondly, +Competence bonus. And lastly, TSH for every magic system ever holy shit.

Philosopher 's wreath is the only other option we have seen that gives +wisdom, and frankly Hunger desperately needs it.

OctarineShrike · Jun 7, 2020

Byzantine said:
So just a question, but what are people expecting to get out of Dreadnought right now? I'll note that other than the eye gain - which I do want - If we get Vanguard Gisena will be tankier than the amount Dreadnaught increases our tanking by. Particularly if we get stranglethorn.

If we get Stranglethorn and Vanguard Gisena will have... 16+16+48 Con.

...Gisena will literally have 80 Con!

...I had to get a calculator to double check it was so ridiculous.

Dreadnought also provides a plus of Broad spectrum protection(We probably need some). The attributes for the regain an eye/sacrifice an eye I'm somewhat indecisive on however.

Orm Embar · Jun 7, 2020

Box Lunch said:
You can't take both? I thought Vanguard was 7 Arete, no picks.

5 now, since the Bright Vanquisher incorporated Undying Echo.

Unelemental · Jun 7, 2020

Byzantine said:
I will just please beg Dreadnaught voters to return our eye. Something is hiding behind having two eyes worth To Shatter Heaven, and that makes me so very curious.

It does mention that there are some two-eye options (unless it means depth perception), but the two options don't have equal potential. One of them spends power on regrowing an unhealable wound, the other sacrifices the eye permanently and focuses that unused potential on other things.

Byzantine · Jun 7, 2020

Shard said:
Well first of, the artists have mentioned a preference for a 1-eye Lord Hunger (Odin!), and secondly, +Competence bonus. And lastly, TSH for every magic system ever holy shit.

Exactly! What the fuck is a second eye capable of that's worth TSH for every magic system!?

Shard · Jun 7, 2020

Byzantine said:
Exactly! What the fuck is a second eye capable of that's worth TSH for every magic system!?

Don't equate things like that.

Byzantine · Jun 7, 2020

Unelemental said:
It does mention that there are some two-eye options (unless it means depth perception), but the two options don't have equal potential. One of them spends power on regrowing an unhealable wound, the other sacrifices the eye permanently and focuses that unused potential on other things.

Yes, they do. Rihaku isn't going to offer us a trade where we remain permanently wounded in exchange for something *or* get healed unless the healing side has more value in the long-term.

See Unshattered, and Ruinous Valor for the obvious examples.

If he's offering for us to lose an eye to get To Shatter Heaven for all magic systems having two eyes has some kind of incredible value we aren't aware of that will cost picks and arete to attain. Which is what the blurb warns.

Shard said:
Don't equate things like that.

Why not? That's exactly what all those trade offs have been so far. Trading a piece of ourselves for temporary certainty. From the Heros own battle with the Tyrant and everything offered so far we know that you can sacrifice part of yourself for a temporary increase in power. But as a progression cursebearer our eventually potential is infinite. Which means that we should be able to surpass the offer in time.

DarkSideBard · Jun 7, 2020

Byzantine said:
Exactly! What the fuck is a second eye capable of that's worth TSH for every magic system!?

It turns out that, in the long-run, depth perception is just that OP.

Wolfy · Jun 7, 2020

Shard said:
Making Tired 75% less bad and Exhausted 50% less bad overall is pretty important goven Form of Rage.

Multiplicative, not additive.

Box Lunch said:
You can't take both? I thought Vanguard was 7 Arete, no picks.

Point was that Wyrm fight would have Gisena doing fuck all. Having off tank is not viable if enemies either have enough AoE to hit us anyway, or just plain focus us. Gisena is slow as shit.

I would much rather get Stranglethron and then save up Arete for something that has massive synergy with both Stranglethorn and FOR, allowing us maximum power. Going 4p into 7AP is something we can do right now; getting another 4p after we get 7AP requires luck. 4p and 7AP that have lots of synergy will do wonder for our power level.

DkArthas · Jun 7, 2020

[X] Yes, Obviously
[X] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor (3 picks)
-[X] Zweihander
[X] A Thousand Cuts [7 Arete]
[X] Retreat to the Antechamber

The return of an modified form of my favoured build. Murderer's Panoply. Now we only need Fall of Night to complete the Uber offense set. After this, we can focus on utility and defensive shit. For now, take shit that actually allows us to grind through the temple and murderize shit.

Shard · Jun 7, 2020

Byzantine said:
Why not? That's exactly what all those trade offs have been so far. Trading a piece of ourselves for temporary certainty.

Well then, in the long run, just look at the cost of 20% minus in agility for Stranglethorn? What options are we locking ourselves out of now, cool blade techniques, the ability to avoid inflicting mass collateral damage as we increase in power?

Byzantine · Jun 7, 2020

DkArthas said:
[X] Yes, Obviously
[X] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor (3 picks)
-[X] Zweihander
[X] A Thousand Cuts [7 Arete]
[X] Retreat to the Antechamber

The return of an modified form of my favoured build. Murderer's Panoply. Now we only need Fall of Night to complete the Uber offense set. After this, we can focus on utility and defensive shit. For now, take shit that actually allows us to grind through the temple and murderize shit.

Honestly I think both this and the stranglethorn build do that.

...I really hope this doesn't do what happened last time and cause the one build I dislike to win. because I think I'll scream.

Microwave MKII · Jun 7, 2020

After reading the options a couple times over, I am a bit more receptive towards Dreadnought - Sharp. Yeah, I'll be sad about having to ditch the eyepatch, but I'm gonna go against my aesthetic sense this time because I do want those defensive boosts, and while I'm not completely satisfied with either of the sub-picks, I'm not a fan of Rune.

I'm still open to being swayed to Zweihander or Stranglethorn builds, the only thing I'm really set on is going back to the Antechamber. For now:

[X] Yes, Obviously
[X] Forebear's Blade - Dreadnought's Bearing
-[X] Sharp of Eye
[X] Retreat to the Antechamber

Edit: ooooooh this vote option is even made of Hungy's color palette!

Unelemental · Jun 7, 2020

Byzantine said:
Yes, they do. Rihaku isn't going to offer us a trade where we remain permanently wounded in exchange for something *or* get healed unless the healing side has more value in the long-term.

See Unshattered, and Ruinous Valor for the obvious examples.

If he's offering for us to lose an eye to get To Shatter Heaven for all magic systems having two eyes has some kind of incredible value we aren't aware of that will cost picks and arete to attain. Which is what the blurb warns.

The options don't need to have equal long-term potential? Getting our eye back has unquantifiable value of its own. You can't just say an option that sacrifices something permanently should give the same reward as an option that restores that part to us because of some arbitrary notions of balance.
Unshattered and Ruinous Value only support that point, one sacrificing potential and limbs for immediate power, the other enhancing the option in exchange for forever losing an arm.

vali · Jun 7, 2020

Byzantine said:
If he's offering for us to lose an eye to get To Shatter Heaven for all magic systems having two eyes has some kind of incredible value we aren't aware of that will cost picks and arete to attain. Which is what the blurb warns.

If you think all options are equally good then you haven't been paying attention to the quest so far. Some options really are just better than others.

Box Lunch · Jun 7, 2020

Byzantine said:
Exactly! What the fuck is a second eye capable of that's worth TSH for every magic system!?

Counterpoint: What's To Shatter Heaven do without any other magic systems?

Do you want to commit, here and now, to push for magic options in the future no matter how awesome the alternative or how dangerous the circumstance? Are you willing to walk down the aisle with Rune King?

Unelemental · Jun 7, 2020

Box Lunch said:
Counterpoint: What's To Shatter Heaven do without any other magic systems?

Do you want to commit, here and now, to push for magic options in the future no matter how awesome the alternative or how dangerous the circumstance? Are you willing to walk down the aisle with Rune King?

Err, he's arguing against Rune King.
Edit: Or was that an argument in favor of it? Because it didn't sound like that...

Byzantine · Jun 7, 2020

Shard said:
Well then, in the long run, just look at the cost of 20% minus in agility for Stranglethorn? What options are we locking ourselves out of now, cool blade techniques, the ability to avoid inflicting mass collateral damage as we increase in power?

Probably some cool super-speed tricks.

Though since it doesn't explicitly say it's locking us out of things, unlike the body-part sacrificing, I'm thinking we can break the system and get the prerequisites for them anyway.

As I said before, the beast that is supposed to be slow and ponderous being inexplicably fast appeals to me, in part because I suspect it will take our foes by surprise.

Unelemental said:
Err, he's arguing against Rune King.
Edit: Or was that an argument in favor of it? Because it didn't sound like that...

Against it, in the "If we take this I'll never find out what 2 eyes gets us" sense.

Shard · Jun 7, 2020

Byzantine said:
Probably some cool super-speed tricks.

Though since it doesn't explicitly say it's locking us out of things, unlike the body-part sacrificing, I'm thinking we can break the system and get the prerequisites for them anyway.

As I said before, the beast that is supposed to be slow and ponderous being inexplicably fast appeals to me, in part because I suspect it will take our foes by surprise.

I mean based on your argument, 4x echoes is the same as Stranglethorn in power and long term potential. In fact, any arbitrary combination of options are all equal in power and potential, no matter how illogical.

Harried · Jun 7, 2020

There is something of huge value inherent in regrowing our eye and arm, the fact that it's symbolically restoring the damage done to us by the Tyrant is important.

A Simple Transaction I

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