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A Simple Transaction I

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Anyway: To support stranglethorn remember that it greatly increases the value of Echo. Which also boosts agi. Which offsets the cost notably, since if we take 1 extra echo we wouldn't have otherwise every 1/5 of the time we end up breaking even with what agi we would have had anyway! And it incentivizes us taking echo by making it worth more than other no arete 1 pick options.

Box Lunch said:
Fair enough. On my end, taking Opalescence was half-meant as advance payment for Iridescence later. It's going to be a lot more appealing once it's one pick and not two!
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I agree with this logic!
 
Byzantine said:
Read what I quoted, not what his post currently says. Sneaky Mod edited it quickly enough it didn't show the "last edited" button, but I ninja-quoted.

...My assumption is he realized exactly what I was pointing out and changed it.
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For some reason I assumed the Rank cost 2 Arete in addition to 2 picks, inflating the cost, then went back to confirm and fixed the error. Looks like Rank upgrades from feats consistently cost 2 choices, though this one gives 0.05 less than Seralize's. If the trend continues as we climb the Ranks the next'll be 0.15.
Rihaku said:
It looks like every Ruinous Valor pick is going Zweihander, so you'd be safe to take that! Alternatively, Gardener's Hallow is very appealing if you want to give yourself arbitrary powers...
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This feels heretical to say, but... maybe we've been greedy enough for now? God knows I see the aesthetic appeal of Hallow, but the Temple's bad place for it. Hunger noted the absence of non-murderous wildlife; maybe we could get it to cough up another Echo, but that's not much of an immediate return on a 7 Arete investment.
 
Really cool fight scene! And really good choices. Damn.

[X] Yes, Obviously.
[X] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor (3 picks)
-[X] Zweihander
[X] A Thousand Cuts [7 Arete]
[X] Retreat to the Antechamber

I think I will vote for this, at least for now. While full protection isn't a bad build, we are somewhat lacking in offensive power, I think. This would patch up an role in our build.

I think that regiment might be worthwhile to pursue as the next upgrade, especially if an defensive build wins. Hell, it might me worthwhile to take Stranglethorn + Regiment to be able to take Gisena along. The boosted survival, plus the increased chance of form of rage working, on top of it being that much more powerful...

Decisions, decisions.
 
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Xalvitor said:
I think that regiment might be worthwhile to pursue as the next upgrade, especially if an defensive build wins. Hell, it might me worthwhile to take Stranglethorn + Regiment to be able to take Gisena along. The boosted survival, plus the increased chance of form of rage working, on top of it being that much more powerful...
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And note that build give Gisena our doubled Con as well. As well as the value of all three forms. She'll be a ridiculous tank.

SpectatingRaven said:
I think some people are forgetting about Soul Evocation when thinking about accesible magic systems.
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I'm not, we just don't have access to it at the moment have no guarantee ours will be any good.
 
Everything is awesome and I have no idea what I want.

[X] Yes, Obviously.
[X] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor (3 picks)
-[X] Zweihander
[X] A Thousand Cuts [7 Arete]
[X] Retreat to the Antechamber
 
The main risk from taking Dreadnought's Bearing, especially if Momentum is selected, is that it doesn't do much for your offense. Sure, you become a giga tank, but neither Sharp Eye or Rune King contributes anything as remotely as productive as Ruinous Valor, Thousand Cuts, or Echo Spam to your attacks. If you want to go a defensive primacy build, that's your prerogative, but be aware that it's a weakness of the advancement.

Of course, if you're taking it with Antechamber, that makes a bit more sense, as you'll be well-rested and full hp tomorrow to fully utilize your TANK GOOD. But if you want to exploit Momentum, there are stronger builds.

Orm Embar said:
This feels heretical to say, but... maybe we've been greedy enough for now? God knows I see the aesthetic appeal of Hallow, but the Temple's bad place for it. Hunger noted the absence of non-murderous wildlife; maybe we could get it to cough up another Echo, but that's not much of an immediate return on a 7 Arete investment.
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Greedy... enough? I'm sorry, that phrase just doesn't parse.
 
SpectatingRaven said:
I think some people are forgetting about Soul Evocation when thinking about accesible magic systems.
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I certainly considered it. It's a question though of what it will take for us to get another chance at Azure Moon, and whether or not permanently degrading our ranged attacks unless we build surrogate eyes/sensor drones in exchange for breaking the conceptual limits is worth it.
 
[X] Yes, Obviously.
[X] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor (3 picks)
[X] A Thousand Cuts [7 Arete]
[X] Keep Up Momentum

SWORD GOOD
 
Oof. Imaging using Gardener's Hallow on the wurm then eating it. Can we actually use this to make lower leveled enemies into something combat capable for ez hunting?


[X] Yes, Obviously.
[X] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor (3 picks)
-[X] Zweihander
[X] A Thousand Cuts [7 Arete]
[X] Retreat to the Antechamber

Give me my Mikiri Counter.
 
[X] No
[X] Hunger - Stranglethorn
[X] Undying Vanguard
[X] Retreat to the Antechamber


In support of this build:
Stranglethorn is obviously very powerful. But it comes at the painful cost of 20% our agi +'s. That's bad, you say! Ah ha! I say. You've fallen for my trap, for by taking Stranglethorn Echo is worth +2 mig +1 agi! So we'll take it more! So we'll end up with even higher agi than we would have anyway! The irony! But what about right now, you say! Ah ha! I say. You've fallen for my second trap! For we will only be reduced to the agi we started the Temple with! That's not enough, you say! I agree, I say! But it's only for a single fight, and this will increase our Con and Str time 6 in Rage form! That can take almost anything!

And with Vanguard Gisena gets ALL of the extra con. From all of our forms. Including Form of Rage! Her tanking skills will be the stuff of legends! Seriously, she'll have Con actually rated for this place!

Taka said:
[X] Yes, Obviously.
[X] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor (3 picks)
-[X] Zweihander
[X] A Thousand Cuts [7 Arete]
[X] Retreat to the Antechamber
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And to not be an overexcited salesman for a moment this is my second pick.
 
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Current stats:


  • Charisma: ++++
  • Intelligence: ++
  • Protection: ++
  • Agility: ++++++++ (8)
  • Strength: +++++
  • Constitution: ++++++++ (8)

Stranglethorn:
+8 Constitution (+16 total)
-1.6 Agility (+6.4 total)
+5 Str(+10 Total)
*2 Willpower (No WP to multiply)
+20% all future Rank gains.
-Defining Trait slot (we still have a lot tho)
Establishment (Can't use now)
(-2 Arete, Grievously wounded)

Total: +13 stats, -1.6 Agility, Agility is worth more, so ,probably +9/10 more overall. (If agility is worth ~2x a normal STR/CON)

4x Echoes:
+4 Constitution(+12 Total)
+4 Agility (+12 Total)
+4 Str (+9 Total)
Total: +8 stats, +4 agility, Agility is worth more, so +16/17 overall (If agility is worth ~2x a normal STR/CON)

For the Temple, 3+1 Echoes is superior. Note that Yes, Obviously come with an Echo of it's own. It still almost doubles our STR.
 
Shard said:
Stranglethorn:
+8 Constitution (+16 total)
-1.6 Agility (+6.4 total)
+5 Str(+10 Total)
*2 Willpower (No WP to multiply)
+20% all future Rank gains.
-Defining Trait slot (we still have a lot tho)
Establishment (Can't use now)
(-2 Arete, Grievously wounded)

Total: +13 stats, -1.6 Agility, Agility is worth more, so ,probably +9/10 more overall. (If agility is worth ~2x a normal STR/CON)

4x Echoes:
+4 Constitution(+12 Total)
+4 Agility (+12 Total)
+4 Str (+9 Total)
Total: +8 stats, +4 agility, Agility is worth more, so +16/17 overall (If agility is worth ~2x a normal STR/CON)

For the Temple, 3+1 Echoes is superior. Note that Yes, Obviously come with an Echo of it's own. It still almost doubles our STR.
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Note that by taking strangethorn now and 4 echos next we instead get +13, -1.6 agil then +16 stats, +3.2 agility.

If we could guarantee 4 picks and access to stranglethorn later I would be less tempted, but we can't. We *can* guarentee access to echo though.
 
Come on guys, imagine the power of Gardener's Hallow with the Ruling Ring! You know what's greater even than a Ring? A Silmaril. What's greater even than a Silmaril?

The Light of the Trees. Why stop at the Dunedain when you could raise up the Noldor as your leal companions? Isn't that worth a little risk?
 
Rihaku said:
Come on guys, imagine the power of Gardener's Hallow with the Ruling Ring! You know what's greater even than a Ring? A Silmaril. What's greater even than a Silmaril?

The Light of the Trees. Why stop at the Dunedain when you could raise up the Noldor as your leal companions? Isn't that worth a little risk?
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Bluntly: Why are you stanning for Gardener's Hallow in a place with no life. It is clear that if we try to grow anything in here it is going to attract the big monsters we can't even begin to fight. Because the Temple does not allow outside life inside. At all.
 
Byzantine said:
Note that by taking strangethorn now and 4 echos next we instead get +13, -1.6 agil then +16 stats, +3.2 agility.

If we could guarantee 4 picks and access to stranglethorn later I would be less tempted, but we can't. We *can* guarentee access to echo though.
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'But my build will be better with 4 extra picks' is not really a compelling argument to me.
 
Shard said:
'But my build will be better with 4 extra picks' is not really a compelling argument to me.
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My argument is that we can guarantee access to echo but not stranglethorn, so we should take stranglethorn while we can so that it boosts Echo, which makes us more likely to pick it in the future.
 
Byzantine said:
Bluntly: Why are you stanning for Gardener's Hallow in a place with no life. It is clear that if we try to grow anything in here it is going to attract the big monsters we can't even begin to fight. Because the Temple does not allow outside life inside. At all.
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It makes sense on a retreat based route. Take the swag, leave the place Lord Hunger acknowledged as a blatant trap, go hunting to get food based advancements elsewhere.
 
Rihaku said:
Come on guys, imagine the power of Gardener's Hallow with the Ruling Ring! You know what's greater even than a Ring? A Silmaril. What's greater even than a Silmaril?

The Light of the Trees. Why stop at the Dunedain when you could raise up the Noldor as your leal companions? Isn't that worth a little risk?
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Imagine if we also took Pillars of Creation to generate the unique resources needed for those spectacular effects!

how else could we get so strong for a mere 57 Arete?
 
@Projectile: Can I tempt you into adding Undying Vanguard to your vote? All the defensive and Con boosts we get apply to Gisena too, if we get it. Including the doubled Con from Stranglethorn and all the Con from ALL of our forms. She'll be tankier than us!
 
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