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A Simple Transaction I

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Rihaku said:
Ruinous Valor + Thousand Cuts would be very strong here as well. You could somewhat safely take Zweihander! The utility of having two arms is not to be underestimated.
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I hope you're happy, because now I'm imagining Ruinous Valor + Form of Rage teaming up for a plus fifteen strength bonus. Just how ridiculous would our Fell-Handed Strikes be?

Hell, Vanguard doesn't even require any picks. We could take Stranglethorn alongside Vanguard if we just retreat and generate 0.65 Arete, well within the thread's capabilities, and then Gisena and Letrizia could benefit from our new and improved defenses.
 
Orm Embar said:
I hope you're happy, because now I'm imagining Ruinous Valor + Form of Rage teaming up for a plus fifteen strength bonus. Just how ridiculous would our Fell-Handed Strikes be?

Hell, Vanguard doesn't even require any picks. We could take Stranglethorn alongside Vanguard if we just retreat and generate 0.65 Arete, well within the thread's capabilities, and then Gisena and Letrizia could benefit from our new and improved defenses.
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It's hard to beat good old Echo of the Forebear spam for Form of Rage value. Have you considered 3 + 1 Echos + Thousand Cuts? That's ++++STR, AGI, CON and a great passive + active offensive ability.
 
These are the two builds I like. Normally stranglethorn would be a shoe-in, especially since Rank isn't multiplied retroactively. The fact is though that in this Temple I think the chances are very high we'll see 4 pick options in the not too distant future. So keeping on with the catch up leveling now that we have an option that puts a thumb on the scale so we're not at the total mercy of the die is quite tempting.

[ ] Yes, Obviously.
[ ] Keep Up Momentum
[ ] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor (3 picks)
[ ] A Thousand Cuts [7 Arete]

[ ] No. [Cost - 2 Arete]
[ ] Hunger - Stranglethorn (4 picks)
[ ] Retreat to the Antechamber
[ ] Undying Vanguard [5 Arete]
 
Fuck yeah we are the danger.

[X] Yes, Obviously
[X] Keep Up Momentum

I love everything except Stranglethorn and so will hold off on that vote for now. Can't decide between Valor/Dreadnought/Echo + Thousand Cuts.

Stranglethorn is good but the -agility doesn't fit our build well. Also our stats are low enough that doubling them isn't all that useful, since we can purchase roughly an equal number of stats with other abilities. And lastly it costs Arete and leaves us gravely wounded.

For Momentum, we beat the knight, we beat the worm, we're a lot stronger than when we entered this place, we're getting better and better at only facing monsters as tough as we are, we have form of rage as a backup, there is Arete on the line, Yes means we still have 50% health. As long as Yes wins I approve.
 
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Okay, just stapling together some paths here. Plans not assuming 7 Arete by time of update are marked [COWARDICE].
#1: No. + Stranglethorn + Vanguard + Retreat to the Antechamber. Double our raw endurance, heal up in whatever passes for peace around here. Letrizia is as safe as we can make her.
#2: Yes, Obviously. + Dreadnought's Blessing + Keep Up Momentum. We can actually keep fighting and not die. Has branching paths potential in the Sharp of Eye/Rune King sub-vote.
#3: Yes, Obviously. + Gardener's Hallow + Retreat to the Antechamber. A total greed pick, but has wide-reaching benefits. Possibly opens up a monster taming/farming path?
#4: No. + Opalescence + Dominion: Life + Apex + Retreat to the Antechamber. A safe pick with few assumptions. Heal and get stronger, then return far superior to expectations. [COWARDICE]
#5: Yes, Obviously. + Ruinous Valor + Thousand Cuts + Keep Up Momentum. For those still mourning the Murderer's Panoply, here's your rebound. Form of Rage scales well with it.
#6: No. + Stranglethorn + Retreat to the Antechamber. MAXIMUM GREED. Keeps as much Arete as possible while still nabbing Stranglethorn. Odds of dying are probably sub-100%. [COWARDICE]
#7: Yes, Obviously. + Triple Echo + Vanguard + Keep Up Momentum. The committal choice, protects allies so we can advance forward with boosted stats. Leans hard on Form of Rage. [COWARDICE]
 
[X] Yes, Obviously
[X] Forebear's Blade - Dreadnought's Bearing (7 Arete, 3 picks)
-[X] Rune King
[X] Keep Up Momentum

I think we went into this thinking we were tankier than we actually are. Taking Dreadnought is the only way I see us keeping momentum due to both the massive defensive increase and the exhaustion reduction. Also Rune King will finally make magic a viable short term goal, and give us the extra utility we need to finish this Temple.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
[ ] Yes, Obviously.
[ ] Keep Up Momentum
[ ] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor (3 picks)
[ ] A Thousand Cuts [7 Arete]

[ ] No. [Cost - 2 Arete]
[ ] Hunger - Stranglethorn (4 picks)
[ ] Retreat to the Antechamber
[ ] Undying Vanguard [5 Arete
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I'm going to agree with these picks and state my intent to help either one win. I can't actually decide between them, though.
 
If you are voting for Dreadnought, can you specify which version? It's kind of important.

Currently without any magic systems I think that Dreadnought is a discount Stranglethorn that costs more. Arguably it has more long term potential, but we are not going to benefit form that while we are stuck here. It's greedy in that sense.
Rihaku said:
It doesn't need to be in order to be a significant downside. You're not competing in a vacuum, but against the other options. Why take an option that leaves you worse off against the types of enemies you've already encountered in this dungeon when you could take Valor + Cuts or Dreadnought's Bearing? Especially with No reducing your hp to a sliver...

Despite the many times speed has been referenced in these and previous fight scenes, I don't think you guys have fully internalized how bad being slower is. It's not a crippling reduction, but it is a drag on your future speed both pragmatically and in terms of opportunity cost. Either you'll avoid +Agi because it's inefficient, falling further behind, or be forced to spend lots of picks on +Agi to maintain parity. This is to balance out the incredible benefits Stranglethorn offers otherwise. Yes, it's very strong. But you guys should have clear expectations about what will happen to your speed and not try to downplay it.
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Better against some enemies, comparatively worst against others, that's every option. Or are there no enemies in which we'd prefer double Strength and Constitution?

Yes, I know it's significant, but I think it's well worth the tradeoff; especially because it helps greatly both now and in the future. Rank is going to be very important considering we reserved Once and Future; and our three forms and the power of Ruin lends us well to an attrition playstyle that Stranglethorn would support. I think it's great for us.
vali said:
Fuck yeah we are the danger.

[X] Yes, Obviously
[X] Keep Up Momentum

I love everything except Stranglethorn and so will hold off on that vote for now. Can't decide between Valor/Dreadnought/Echo + Thousand Cuts.

Stranglethorn is good but the -agility doesn't fit our build well. Also our stats are low enough that doubling them isn't all that useful, since we can purchase roughly an equal number of stats with other abilities. And lastly it costs Arete and leaves us gravely wounded.

For Momentum, we beat the knight, we beat the worm, we're a lot stronger than when we entered this place, we're getting better and better at only facing monsters as tough as we are, we have form of rage as a backup, there is Arete on the line, Yes means we still have 50% health. As long as Yes wins I approve.
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It doubles them now and in the future, is the benefit. Rank plusses too. There's no way we'd catch up with it unless we take something similar in the future.

Also we have kind of risked enough. Let's just take this win and settle down.

Kirbstomp said:
I think we went into this thinking we were tankier than we actually are. Taking Dreadnought is the only way I see us keeping momentum due to both the massive defensive increase and the exhaustion reduction. Also Rune King will finally make magic a viable short term goal, and give us the extra utility we need to finish this Temple.
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We have no other magic systems, unless you have another 7 Arete for Wreath. Rune King does literally nothing right now and for the forseeable future. Stranglethorn also just straight up just gives more CON than Dreadnought, while allowing us to take Vanguard so we can bring Gisena along. If we want extra utility for the Temple, that is it.
 
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Adjusted the character sheet so that anything with more that 5 pluses has the total at the end. How's that? Or would you guys prefer something like a + to represent every 5 pluses?

[X] Yes, Obviously
[X] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor (3 picks)
-[X] Zweihander
[X] A Thousand Cuts [7 Arete]
[X] Retreat to the Antechamber

Love Stranglethorn and think that we really ought to take Undying Vanguard soon or our companions are liable to killed murdered by Ber. That said, we also need power to survive immediately and this does a lot for us in that regard. Retreat because we've gambled a lot today and we really should know when to fold 'em. Plus, our boy wouldn't exactly be used to having 2 arms in combat again so he'll likely need some time to practice for maximum effectiveness. And given how we've been acting, it would be such a shame to not take something with a name as apropos as Ruinous Valour.
 
[X] Yes, Obviously
[X] Forebear's Blade - Dreadnought's Bearing (7 Arete, 3 picks)
-[X] Rune King
[X] Keep Up Momentum

Rune King's To Shatter Heaven is far too phenomenal to not take. Plus while Stranglethorn is great Agility is what carried us through most of our fights so far.
 
[X] Yes, Obviously
[X] Forebear's Blade - Dreadnought's Bearing (7 Arete, 3 picks) -
[X] Keep Up Momentum

I think the focused power of an expensive pick is the way to go here, but Stranglethorn isn't a concept I favor for a defining advancement.
From some perspectives this option isn't worth it, however, I think it forms a cohesive whole that offers us an effective combat strategy. Con and Tired mitigation let us fight longer at full strength and the mental stats will let us exploit weaknesses our opponent presents.
We can employ tactics like those we used against this worm and Seralize, but with less cost and more reliability in coming up with them.
While the different eye options express this differently, they do still both support this strategy. Wits will let us react and notice stuff, while int+wis will let us make deeper insights and correct choices. In chess, for example, wits would prevent short-term blunders while int+wis would help us with calculating deeper lines to choose a better overall strategy. Either of them help us a great deal in fights and both eye options have further utility effects beyond their mental stats.

on the other hand, echo is OP so we should just take 3 of them and call it a day
 
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Microwave MKII said:
also welp I didn't want to go to the Temple in the first place but I'll take all of the Shadow of the Colossus aesthetic I can get
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Looks good! It's actually much bigger than the knights I envisaged (they're about 10-12 feet high), but Hunger may well encounter something like this in the future.

vali said:
For Momentum, we beat the knight, we beat the worm, we're a lot stronger than when we entered this place, we're getting better and better at only facing monsters as tough as we are, we have form of rage as a backup, there is Arete on the line, Yes means we still have 50% health. As long as Yes wins I approve.
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While your chances of triggering Form of Rage when needed in a given encounter are decent, they're not 100%. It varies by encounter as well.

Box Lunch said:
#3: Yes, Obviously. + Gardener's Hallow + Retreat to the Antechamber. A total greed pick, but has wide-reaching benefits. Possibly opens up a monster taming/farming path?
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You could also do No + Gardener's + Apex + Retreat. Godstat + Greedy pick, almost opens up a new line of play!

Kirbstomp said:
[X] Yes, Obviously
[X] Forebear's Blade - Dreadnought's Bearing (7 Arete, 3 picks)
-[X] Rune King
[X] Keep Up Momentum

I think we went into this thinking we were tankier than we actually are. Taking Dreadnought is the only way I see us keeping momentum due to both the massive defensive increase and the exhaustion reduction. Also Rune King will finally make magic a viable short term goal, and give us the extra utility we need to finish this Temple.
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You are very tanky for your "level," it's just that this area is way above your level, so extra defense definitely doesn't hurt! Dreadnought's exhaustion reduction is something I think has been underlooked, but it's very relevant for someone who uses Form of Rage. It's also really strong if you eventually get Iron Curtain. Rune King is epic, I agree.
 
I would be very wary of rune king. It is very very strong.

So what the hell can we get with two eyes? Because it's probably stronger, if longer term to achieve!
 
Byzantine said:
That is one of the leading plans atm.
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Sorry, was too busy salivating over the blurbs to catch up with the thread.
Rihaku said:
It's hard to beat good old Echo of the Forebear spam for Form of Rage value. Have you considered 3 + 1 Echos + Thousand Cuts? That's ++++STR, AGI, CON and a great passive + active offensive ability.
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Right, the comforting embrace of the Echo Chamber. Always tempting, but the clarification that the wurm might not have triggered the Form makes me wary. After such a close shave, a survivability boost's appealing. Plus, the constitution + weariness resistance means we can afford to use more Fell-Handed Strikes even if they're much weaker.
 
Rihaku said:
While your chances of triggering Form of Rage when needed in a given encounter are decent, they're not 100%. It varies by encounter as well.
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Where were you with this when I was doing everything in my power to stop Rage from winning!?

You're a lousy devil's advocate if you're supporting the thing winning! (Grumbles)

No, but seriously, I wish you had pointed that out. I'd have buried people in it.
 
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runeblue360 said:
And given how we've been acting, it would be such a shame to not take something with a name as apropos as Ruinous Valour.
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The +Strength scaling to Ruin% is quite good now that you have some innate +Strength. Combined with Thousand Cuts' passive, you won't even need to use the active against a good portion of enemies! Zweihander is also decent synergy in that it applies all the effects of your blade to your fist attacks. The dour and covert return of Muscle Wizardry!

TwistedJester said:
Rune King's To Shatter Heaven is far too phenomenal to not take. Plus while Stranglethorn is great Agility is what carried us through most of our fights so far.
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Hm, does anyone want Sharp of Eye?

George said:
on the other hand, echo is OP so we should just take 3 of them and call it a day
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Agreed.
 
Rihaku said:
The +Strength scaling to Ruin% is quite good now that you have some innate +Strength. Combined with Thousand Cuts' passive, you won't even need to use the active against a good portion of enemies! Zweihander is also decent synergy in that it applies all the effects of your blade to your fist attacks. The dour and covert return of Muscle Wizardry!



Hm, does anyone want Sharp of Eye?



Agreed.
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The Charisma means I'm at least semi-tempted/considering Sharp of Eye
 
Oh man, we were absolutely wrecked out here and still people don't want Gisena as an off-tank. While the wurm was a great example of a foe Nullity would be less than effective against, she would come in very useful when it comes to take on the Knights that seemingly dominate this part of the Temple. It would help our ability to grind immensely, really.
 
Rihaku said:
While your chances of triggering Form of Rage when needed in a given encounter are decent, they're not 100%. It varies by encounter as well.
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Well that's concerning. I had been assuming that our votes, especially Vengeance, had established Hunger as being somewhat recklessly obsessed with revenge, enough that "a compelling reason to fight on" would always exist as long as he thought revenge and getting his wife back was possible. Is the characterization tipping more towards suicidal?

Maybe Gisena could up his survival chances? Bring her along, she could act as a cheerleader when he's going all Form of Rage.
 
Rihaku said:
Hm, does anyone want Sharp of Eye?
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I do, the Wits bonus is useful for coming up with tactics mid-combat and the Charisma would be relevant if we encounter adventurers here. Expanding To Shatter Heaven is overpowered, but we don't actually have any other magic systems, making it questionably useful in the short term. Which is what we should be prioritizing, since the risks of the Temple have been hammered home again and again. This makes it a perfect pretext to take an option that'll heal Hunger, erase one of the scars left by the Tyrant.

If either Microwave or Priest object to healing Hunger's eye/arm on aesthetic grounds, I'll vote for Einhander or Rune King over their alternatives, but otherwise it'd be really nice to make Hunger better. Emotional scars take time and character development, but we can at least heal old hurts as a consolation for all the shit we put him through.
 
Form of Rage is not something to be invoked lightly. If we trigger it for anything less then a huge character moment, frankly we deserve to have a failure chance.
 
Though it's greedy, Gardener's Hallow is quite survivable in this situation with +Echos and Yes + Retreat. I think you guys should take a second look at it since it patches so many utility holes and gives you branching advancement trees (sometimes literal!). You don't get many pure potential 7-Arete options.

Byzantine said:
Where were you with this when I was doing everything in my power to stop Rage from winning!?
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It's in the blurb itself.

Orm Embar said:
Sorry, was too busy salivating over the blurbs to catch up with the thread.

Right, the comforting embrace of the Echo Chamber. Always tempting, but the clarification that the wurm might not have triggered the Form makes me wary. After such a close shave, a survivability boost's appealing. Plus, the constitution + weariness resistance means we can afford to use more Fell-Handed Strikes even if they're much weaker.
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Form of Rage is most reliable when it would be Dramatically Appropriate!

Conjured Blade said:
The Charisma means I'm at least semi-tempted/considering Sharp of Eye
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You'd get to ++++++Charisma with Philosopher's Wreath too! Though Rune King does have its own synergies with the Wreath...

vali said:
Well that's concerning. I had been assuming that our votes, especially Vengeance, had established Hunger as being somewhat recklessly obsessed with revenge, enough that "a compelling reason to fight on" would always exist as long as he thought revenge and getting his wife back was possible. Is the characterization tipping more towards suicidal?

Maybe Gisena could up his survival chances? Bring her along, she could act as a cheerleader when he's going all Form of Rage.
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The guy regularly stabs himself in the heart for tactical advantage, so it's certainly a possible interpretation. Especially looking at Chill of the Grave...

Yes, bringing other characters with high +Relationship in will make Rage more reliable, moreso with higher +Relationship.
 
[X] Yes, Obviously.
[X] Evening Sky - Opalescence
[X] The Ring of Power - Gardener's Hallow (7 Arete, 2 picks)
[X] Keep Up Momentum

With a little more thought, I think the better odds of fighting foes we can manage combines well with better defenses. Gardener's Hallow is because if there's one thing this dungeon has taught me, it's that we need a safer way to gain power.

BrainInAJar said:
Oh man, we were absolutely wrecked out here and still people don't want Gisena as an off-tank. While the wurm was a great example of a foe Nullity would be less than effective against, she would come in very useful when it comes to take on the Knights that seemingly dominate this part of the Temple. It would help our ability to grind immensely, really.
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You got a plan for the door? I'm expecting the Temple to get serious at us if we just try to cut it open.
 
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