Day 5 Begins
Nictis
Best Sidekick
- Location
- Ninja Dave's Cookies
- Pronouns
- Any
The residents of the town step out once more, potentially for the last time. On the ground is the figure of @Totadileplayz, their neck clearly broken.
@Totadileplayz was the Town Doctor!
There are four Town and one Mafia remaining. Hammer is set at three.
The Day will end at , or when Hammer is achieved.
@Totadileplayz was the Town Doctor!
There are four Town and one Mafia remaining. Hammer is set at three.
The Day will end at , or when Hammer is achieved.
- Location
- Oregon, USA
So what now? Do we just lynch Tykan/Meso?
- Location
- On Earth
I'm a spooky Ghost Wooo!!!! I actually saw this coming from a mile away. Well Scum I hope you lose. Town I hope you win, and I'm sort of Glad I died here.
- Location
- Oregon, USA
Glad you died? What? Maybe you figured your drawback was worse than Shadell's or something?
Okay, so we lynched a mafia. That means that, even though just one person died, we can't rule out people being arsonisted, as the mafia could be waiting for a myslynch to try and end the game. As Tykan and Meso are probably going to vote each other, it comes down to the votes of me, @Shadell, and @Scia. Since Scia and I here are newbs, that means it mostly comes down to Shadell, unless of course Scia got anything useful.
Okay, so we lynched a mafia. That means that, even though just one person died, we can't rule out people being arsonisted, as the mafia could be waiting for a myslynch to try and end the game. As Tykan and Meso are probably going to vote each other, it comes down to the votes of me, @Shadell, and @Scia. Since Scia and I here are newbs, that means it mostly comes down to Shadell, unless of course Scia got anything useful.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Toto was a relatively minor suspect. Eating a night kill is better than it going on Scia or me. Given Toto confirmed as an actual doctor, my read's mostly on Tykan atm.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Or rather, since Toto's firmly beyond suspicion, I see a greater build-up of town signals from Meso and YoungPyromancer than Tykan. OTOH, we should 1000% wait for Scia's and Meso's reads.
- Location
- US
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'd hoped we could keep everyone alive. Hopefully @Scia managed to spot the scumat least. I didn't investigate anyone yesterday since my power won't work and since the only real suspects are myself and Tykan, so there is no real benefit in that and if I investigated someone else, there is nontrivial chance I would investigate the same person the scum killed and destroy the potential benefit of having a watcher, whose results can actually be trusted.
I know mathematically we should be able to win even if I go first, but I worry that we may have doused players and thus can't count on our lead to protect us. And it just isn't much fun to fold without putting up a fight.
I know I am town, but obviously I'd say that if I were scum, so that isn't much of an argument, so let me try to lay out why I think Tykan is the better choice for elimination. Nothing I have is a knockdown punch that proves scumminess, some pieces are really weak, but all together I think I can make a reasonabe case.
The strongest part is Tykan's play. Last Day they attempted to present a narrative that I was obvious scum without providing evidence seemed scummy, but even moreso was their attempt Day 3 to break up the emerging towncore by trying to bring Shadell and ondine back into suspicion after they were very close to mechanically cleared rather than focus on any of the much more probable scum.
They've also made a few odd statements. Remember, swarmingu used the limited number of actions scum got as a defense, saying a lawyer visit would require a scum action to counter my investigation. Tykan used the same logic to say we were "missing" a night action night 1 since he claims I wasn't actually roleblocked. It's not an unreasonable guess, but it was presented as a piece of established information rather than a supposition. There is also the strangeness of quibbling over whether we should suspect Lawyering to cost a scum action, which should be entirely irrelevant, since if Tykan's narrative were true, there would be no Cop and scum would have known that since before the start of Day 1.
Mechanically, what stands out most is Tykan having the same drawback as Young Pyromancer. Remember, when YP stated his drawback, we didn't realize that town roles with the same name could have different drawbacks, so copying the announced drawback would have been the most logical thing for a scum fake claiming Fool to do. But then we saw that the Docs had different drawbacks and ondine and Young Pyromancer have different drawbacks.
It isn't outside the realm of possibility for Nictis to have switched things up and given two Fools the same drawbacks while giving the other fool and the other duplicated roles individual ones (and providing unique ones for unique roles like Cop). But each having a unique drawback seems more likely., and giving the already announced town weakness is exactly what a skilled scum player would do in that scenario.
So that's my argument on Tykan, scummy plays, a copied drawback, and a few weird slips. Nothing ironclad, but I think there is enough weirdness there that they should be the clear strongest suspect. Especially given that Tykan was spared Day 2 by Scia's catching Zaealix out in a lie and Day three ended in a tie.
As for a defense of myself, I have been totally honest. The only things I held back were my roleblocking Night 1 and my role, both for security's sake. My night actions were a blocked attempt to investigate InterstellarHobo night 1, a successful visit to Young Pyromancer which returned a town result Night 2, a successful visit to swarmingu which also returned a town result night 3, and last night I took no action (though I did message Nictis that I was doing nothing so as not to hold up the game.) My opposition to the Cop Cover idea Day 2 is consistent with the roleblock and subsequent lack of a result from Night 1.
Also, I pointed out earlier in day 3 when Zaealix said several things which struck me as describing his own role in scummy terms. That was before Scia said anything:
There was zero reason to bus Zaealix, the Bulletproof claim hadn't been exploded yet, so it would make no sense to draw attention to what were very clear scum tells if he were my team mate.
I don't think I've done anything scummy, with the only possible exception being going after QTess Day 2, but I stand by the policy, even if it did take out a towny in this particular case. I think that is every angle I could come up with. It's up to you guys now.
[X] vote Tykan
Yeah, I am going to vote @Tykan .
I know mathematically we should be able to win even if I go first, but I worry that we may have doused players and thus can't count on our lead to protect us. And it just isn't much fun to fold without putting up a fight.
I know I am town, but obviously I'd say that if I were scum, so that isn't much of an argument, so let me try to lay out why I think Tykan is the better choice for elimination. Nothing I have is a knockdown punch that proves scumminess, some pieces are really weak, but all together I think I can make a reasonabe case.
The strongest part is Tykan's play. Last Day they attempted to present a narrative that I was obvious scum without providing evidence seemed scummy, but even moreso was their attempt Day 3 to break up the emerging towncore by trying to bring Shadell and ondine back into suspicion after they were very close to mechanically cleared rather than focus on any of the much more probable scum.
They've also made a few odd statements. Remember, swarmingu used the limited number of actions scum got as a defense, saying a lawyer visit would require a scum action to counter my investigation. Tykan used the same logic to say we were "missing" a night action night 1 since he claims I wasn't actually roleblocked. It's not an unreasonable guess, but it was presented as a piece of established information rather than a supposition. There is also the strangeness of quibbling over whether we should suspect Lawyering to cost a scum action, which should be entirely irrelevant, since if Tykan's narrative were true, there would be no Cop and scum would have known that since before the start of Day 1.
Mechanically, what stands out most is Tykan having the same drawback as Young Pyromancer. Remember, when YP stated his drawback, we didn't realize that town roles with the same name could have different drawbacks, so copying the announced drawback would have been the most logical thing for a scum fake claiming Fool to do. But then we saw that the Docs had different drawbacks and ondine and Young Pyromancer have different drawbacks.
It isn't outside the realm of possibility for Nictis to have switched things up and given two Fools the same drawbacks while giving the other fool and the other duplicated roles individual ones (and providing unique ones for unique roles like Cop). But each having a unique drawback seems more likely., and giving the already announced town weakness is exactly what a skilled scum player would do in that scenario.
So that's my argument on Tykan, scummy plays, a copied drawback, and a few weird slips. Nothing ironclad, but I think there is enough weirdness there that they should be the clear strongest suspect. Especially given that Tykan was spared Day 2 by Scia's catching Zaealix out in a lie and Day three ended in a tie.
As for a defense of myself, I have been totally honest. The only things I held back were my roleblocking Night 1 and my role, both for security's sake. My night actions were a blocked attempt to investigate InterstellarHobo night 1, a successful visit to Young Pyromancer which returned a town result Night 2, a successful visit to swarmingu which also returned a town result night 3, and last night I took no action (though I did message Nictis that I was doing nothing so as not to hold up the game.) My opposition to the Cop Cover idea Day 2 is consistent with the roleblock and subsequent lack of a result from Night 1.
Also, I pointed out earlier in day 3 when Zaealix said several things which struck me as describing his own role in scummy terms. That was before Scia said anything:
(Also, my read on YP I mention didn't really have much to do with the thread. It had to do with me finally getting a result on my investigation attempt.)
There was zero reason to bus Zaealix, the Bulletproof claim hadn't been exploded yet, so it would make no sense to draw attention to what were very clear scum tells if he were my team mate.
I don't think I've done anything scummy, with the only possible exception being going after QTess Day 2, but I stand by the policy, even if it did take out a towny in this particular case. I think that is every angle I could come up with. It's up to you guys now.
[X] vote Tykan
- Location
- US
- Pronouns
- He/Him
EBWOP:
So that's my argument on Tykan, scummy plays, a copied drawback, and a few weird slips. Nothing ironclad, but I think there is enough weirdness there that they should be the clear strongest suspect. Especially given that Tykan was spared Day Three by Scia's catching Zaealix out in a lie and Day Four ended in a tie.
I had 2 and 3 rather than three and four.
So that's my argument on Tykan, scummy plays, a copied drawback, and a few weird slips. Nothing ironclad, but I think there is enough weirdness there that they should be the clear strongest suspect. Especially given that Tykan was spared Day Three by Scia's catching Zaealix out in a lie and Day Four ended in a tie.
I had 2 and 3 rather than three and four.
- Location
- US
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Oh, one more thing. The reason I don't think Young Pyromancer is a likely suspect is that they gave the same drawback as Tykan, and gave it first. So if YP is scum and Tykan is town, YP somehow pulled Tykan's exact drawback out of the air. That seems improbably enough that it can be set aside.. It could be that they are both town and are the only two players to have the same drawback (but that would mean one of myself, Scia or Shadell would have to be scum, and I don't think any of us are). Or they would both be scum (but then we'd have four scum.) Or Tykan is scum and copied Young Pyromancer.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
OTOH, supposing we guess wrong today, Scia and I can turtle each other in the night, e.g., Scia watches me, I protect Scia. Unless
Otherwise, it doesn't matter which of Meso and Tykan is scum.
This is, itself, a good reason to bus Zaealix. Like, the entire point of bussing is to build towncred, so jumping on a read you don't think will stick for whatever reason to be put above suspicion isn't actually a bad play (a hypothetical scum-Scia is probably winning the game at this point), just an incredibly risky one.
Otherwise, it doesn't matter which of Meso and Tykan is scum.
This is, itself, a good reason to bus Zaealix. Like, the entire point of bussing is to build towncred, so jumping on a read you don't think will stick for whatever reason to be put above suspicion isn't actually a bad play (a hypothetical scum-Scia is probably winning the game at this point), just an incredibly risky one.
- Location
- US
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That presumes one of you isn't doused already. Otherwise, we'd be just about assured victory. It may be that scum haven't used their arson ability at all, but I would hate to count on it, so doing our best to get the right kill today is still worthwhile.
Re:Zaealix, that's true, but if I were going to bus an ally, I could just used my Cop claim to blame them, rather than point out weird stuff in the chat. If I were fakeclaiming, delivering an actual scum would really cement my role, I wouldn't pass up that opportunity and make up a drawback that makes me close to useless.
- Location
- Oregon, USA
Unless what?
I've been feeling off about Meso basically the whole game. Scia's probably innocent, and if they aren't, I feel that by the time suspicion swings in their direction the game'll have been lost. Tykan having the same drawback as me I could see going either way, seeing how Swarmy was very waffly on whether that was their drawback or not. I think it's kinda weird to have one person commit fully and the other maintain distance at that point if they're a scum team. Tykan's complete 180 was something I was suspicious of earlier as well, but now looking back on it it seems a lot less AI. Tykan's actually committed to things, where Meso feels like they've just sat back and not been as agressive compared to everyone else. Even me, with my supposed 'unnoticability' that I find VERY odd as it's completely contrary to what I'm used to, was more aggressive early on. And not knowing the meta and players is an actually good reason to sit back a little, and Meso has no such excuse. Maybe it's just their playstyle, but meso seems stereotypical late-game mafia to me. But then again, Tykan has some actual mechanical evidence against him. I'm leaning towards Meso, but I do trust Shadell's judgement.
Gah.
@mesonoxian, if Tykan flips village, what's your move? Same to you @Tykan, if we lynch Meso, and he's village, what does that tell you?
- Location
- US
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I try not to be super aggressive. I find I get too fixated on a single target if I do, so I have been trying to keep an open mind. That's why I tried hard not to prematurely clear anybody. Beyond that, there just isn't much I can respond to here. I mean if you feel I am suspicious, I can't tell you you don't. I'd need something a bit more concrete if I am going to make an argument.
If Tykan were town, I think we'd probably lose. Because whoever the last Mafia is has managed to leave themself looking above reproach. There are four of us and one scum player. If we vote a towny, there will be three of us and one of them. They can pick off someone tonight, that leaves us 2 to 1. I'll almost certainly get voted the next day, and since I am town, we'll have one towny and one scum going into night and that means game over.
I'd try to figure out who the scum actually was, of course, but there are too many possibilities. You're probably the next most suspicious, not by virtue of anything you've done, but because Scia and Shadell are pretty solidly towny. Scia is probably the next most. Their cred hangs on outing Z, which would be an absolutely wild move for scum to try, but it isn't completely beyond the realm of possibility. And then Shadell, who is mechanically cleared. I don't even know how we get to a scum!Shadell world from here.
At this point, I think the only way town wins is if Tykan or I were the last scum, and I know for a fact it isn't me.
- Location
- US
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Dang it, that should say "aren't too many possibilities"
- Pronouns
- She/Her
EBWOP: Unless Scia is scum or we get both guesses wrong.
It's been a while, but I'd like to hear about your reasoning here @Young Pyromancer.
In the event that Tykan flips town, you and Meso are the highest on the chopping block, and this remains an incredibly suspect post I don't think you've really addressed (though I may have missed something). So, why'd you:
1. Post a vote total
2. See that Tykan was two votes from hammer
3. Add the vote that brought it one from hammer
4. Just after a clear scum was caught in a lie and could force the hammer.
I visited Meso last night. Would be pretty handy if @Scia could prove that 
but I doubt it.
If she was roleblocked last night, Meso was right about Scum keeping some actions.
Now let's disect Meso's accusations:
Now let's come to a bit of my accusations on Meso.
Forfeiting night actions is in general stupid. Here I tend to think so as well but this game might be a case where it's not purely detrimental. But I'm biased right now so take this with a grain of salt.
The Cop Cover stuff is completely NAI.
Additionally you didn't need to further cement your claim thanks to the drawback as excuse. In combination with the lawyer you created a narrative of the completely unreliable cop. So no one was expecting a scum claim from you and even that would have needed heavy scrutiny.
Prior to his pushes on me yesterday, Meso has never shown any initiative. He wasn't scumhunting at all. I did with one terribly bad push D3 and one D4 were I not only went after one but two scum.
but I doubt it.If she was roleblocked last night, Meso was right about Scum keeping some actions.
Now let's disect Meso's accusations:
1. The "Slips"
All I say about roles and abilities is NAI. The same goes for any advice I give. (Yes, I know, that borders self-meta again) The quibbling about Lawyering was never about if we ever saw it or not but about how the power is implemented. Since there was talk about it being passive, no evidence for that claim and common behaviour + experience against it, why shouldn't I try to clear up mistakes by less experienced players?
So the slips I'm accused of are phrasing and NAI behaviour... That's not really compelling.
I can only read the bold stuff as you saying I'm a weak scum player.
Joke aside. That statement isn't wrong. But let's be honest, this can only be cleared if I flip. I'm certain that wouldn't help us since we might be at Lylo and additionally wouldn't provide any useful information towards other roles. I already stated why I think it's more likely that Nictis has duplicated a drawback in this case than not.
Last Day first. As I already said, here's why you are scum.
Scia and Shadell are cleared.
I'm town.
Pyro has claimed my exact drawback as fool. The scenarios for this are a) his claim is true, b) he has correctly guessed my drawback or c) scum rolecop can read drawbacks.
The day before has taught me to not always assume some grand scheme behind plays. That favors a). We have no evidence for c).
What further speaks about Pyro as scum are his actions yesterday. If he were scum, he could have gone after Swarmingu first. We started the day with us both being under scrutiny, I even a bit more. So he could have gone after the townie first to win another Night with two scums. In contrast he went for his potential scum buddy. So I'm relatively sure Pyro is town.
Then comes Tota. He had less clear evidence for being town than Pyro. But he went after Swarmingu as well.
The only one who went after me first (beside Shadell) were you. There was even a post IIRC where you tried to defend him and advocated for me to go first. (I'll look that post up if wished)
So you are by PoE scum. That's my initial evidence. Additional stuff later on.
Yes. My play on D3 was just bad. There are two parts to my argumentation here. Why I went after those two and what was really bad about my push.
I was wary of them for the whole of D2 (proveable). IIRC you supported that view for a while. I tried to change my view at N2 and partly succeeded. If most people think their claim is true and it needs the most assumptions, it's probably true. That's why I supported Shadell trying to reduce the pool of suspects to Zaealix, Meso and me.
What kinda broke my behaviour here was the constant statement of Ondine and Shadell being cleared/mech-cleared, both by themselves and several other people. It was repeated so often that I got the feeling we were heavily played. You must admit it would have been a good play. So I changed my target completely and went after them.
The push itself was really bad in several ways. The easier one was my scenario with the drawbacks. Since we had no info about the drawbacks and still don't have, I was making up possible drawbacks. The one most fitting - killing only on even nights - would have been easily proveable if I had waited another night.
Additionally and even worse was how I went with the whole thing. I was running out of time that day, wasn't feeling completely well and kinda rushed that thing.
So I threw together all the quotes that somehow fit my narrative and commented them. At least I ordered them chronologically but that wasn't really helpful either.
There are situations were a commented timeline is helpful, this wasn't one. In addition it was kinda shoddy as Shadell correctly remarked. A timeline can be helpful to trace behaviour. I even did a better before. (Did I posted that one about Ondine repeating cleared/mech-cleared or was that only in the big post?)
What would have been better, was an honest argumentation. Try to present your case by arranging several keypoints and support them by quotes. Those quotes and keypoints don't have to be chronologically. That would have been a more compelling case. My argumentation was basically just a ton of quotes with some one-liners. I didn't have much of a narrative.
That I was wrong is another point. One that I can't change at all. But you know, town mistakes are common.
Well, given I'm pretty sure you are scum, I think you are lying about being roleblocked N1. It's true, I could have talked about it as a possibility but people are more eager to believe statements than assumptions. That's your critique on most of my slips, that I write stuff as statements and not possibilites. Mind I used the second one for quite a while prior to my push D3 to keep people's minds open about Ondine and Shadell. Only later when I really thought they were scum, I changed to making claims.
All I say about roles and abilities is NAI. The same goes for any advice I give. (Yes, I know, that borders self-meta again) The quibbling about Lawyering was never about if we ever saw it or not but about how the power is implemented. Since there was talk about it being passive, no evidence for that claim and common behaviour + experience against it, why shouldn't I try to clear up mistakes by less experienced players?
So the slips I'm accused of are phrasing and NAI behaviour... That's not really compelling.
2. The Drawback
I can only read the bold stuff as you saying I'm a weak scum player.
Joke aside. That statement isn't wrong. But let's be honest, this can only be cleared if I flip. I'm certain that wouldn't help us since we might be at Lylo and additionally wouldn't provide any useful information towards other roles. I already stated why I think it's more likely that Nictis has duplicated a drawback in this case than not.
3. The Pushes
Last Day first. As I already said, here's why you are scum.
Scia and Shadell are cleared.
I'm town.
Pyro has claimed my exact drawback as fool. The scenarios for this are a) his claim is true, b) he has correctly guessed my drawback or c) scum rolecop can read drawbacks.
The day before has taught me to not always assume some grand scheme behind plays. That favors a). We have no evidence for c).
What further speaks about Pyro as scum are his actions yesterday. If he were scum, he could have gone after Swarmingu first. We started the day with us both being under scrutiny, I even a bit more. So he could have gone after the townie first to win another Night with two scums. In contrast he went for his potential scum buddy. So I'm relatively sure Pyro is town.
Then comes Tota. He had less clear evidence for being town than Pyro. But he went after Swarmingu as well.
The only one who went after me first (beside Shadell) were you. There was even a post IIRC where you tried to defend him and advocated for me to go first. (I'll look that post up if wished)
So you are by PoE scum. That's my initial evidence. Additional stuff later on.
Yes. My play on D3 was just bad. There are two parts to my argumentation here. Why I went after those two and what was really bad about my push.
I was wary of them for the whole of D2 (proveable). IIRC you supported that view for a while. I tried to change my view at N2 and partly succeeded. If most people think their claim is true and it needs the most assumptions, it's probably true. That's why I supported Shadell trying to reduce the pool of suspects to Zaealix, Meso and me.
What kinda broke my behaviour here was the constant statement of Ondine and Shadell being cleared/mech-cleared, both by themselves and several other people. It was repeated so often that I got the feeling we were heavily played. You must admit it would have been a good play. So I changed my target completely and went after them.
The push itself was really bad in several ways. The easier one was my scenario with the drawbacks. Since we had no info about the drawbacks and still don't have, I was making up possible drawbacks. The one most fitting - killing only on even nights - would have been easily proveable if I had waited another night.
Additionally and even worse was how I went with the whole thing. I was running out of time that day, wasn't feeling completely well and kinda rushed that thing.
So I threw together all the quotes that somehow fit my narrative and commented them. At least I ordered them chronologically but that wasn't really helpful either.
There are situations were a commented timeline is helpful, this wasn't one. In addition it was kinda shoddy as Shadell correctly remarked. A timeline can be helpful to trace behaviour. I even did a better before. (Did I posted that one about Ondine repeating cleared/mech-cleared or was that only in the big post?)
What would have been better, was an honest argumentation. Try to present your case by arranging several keypoints and support them by quotes. Those quotes and keypoints don't have to be chronologically. That would have been a more compelling case. My argumentation was basically just a ton of quotes with some one-liners. I didn't have much of a narrative.
That I was wrong is another point. One that I can't change at all. But you know, town mistakes are common.
Now let's come to a bit of my accusations on Meso.
Holding back your role is irrelevant. Withholding information from town isn't. You said you feared to out yourself as informative role, so you didn't tell anyone about being roleblocked, because you thought only roles who visit someone get informed of being roleblocked. Might be possible but let's be honest. There's a total of one role who doesn't visit anyone this game, the bulletproof. Additionally it's rather normal to get informed if you are roleblocked. That's way more common than not.
Forfeiting night actions is in general stupid. Here I tend to think so as well but this game might be a case where it's not purely detrimental. But I'm biased right now so take this with a grain of salt.
The Cop Cover stuff is completely NAI.
You know, there's a difference in bussing and distancing. What you did here was distancing. You were throwing a bit of shade on Zaealix for actual suspicious behaviour to earn towncred should he later flip scum.
That would have been bussing. There was no need at that point to bus. Bussing requires you to sacrifice a teammate, which is almost always detrimental. But Zaealix wasn't lost yet at that time. He only was when Scia stepped forward and claimed her action, thus robbing you of your chance to heavily bus him. Mind you did bus him later on when you went hard after him after Scia's reveal.
Additionally you didn't need to further cement your claim thanks to the drawback as excuse. In combination with the lawyer you created a narrative of the completely unreliable cop. So no one was expecting a scum claim from you and even that would have needed heavy scrutiny.
If I may use that for my argumentation.
Prior to his pushes on me yesterday, Meso has never shown any initiative. He wasn't scumhunting at all. I did with one terribly bad push D3 and one D4 were I not only went after one but two scum.
That we have probably lost and had some really grand scum play. I'd probably get voted next and one of you or Scia were scum. Scia would have done an amazing bus or you were pretty spot on with a guess.
- Location
- US
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Clever claiming to have visited me, since I advised the watcher to look elsewhere you avoid the chance Scia was looking where you pretended to visit. Hopefully they were watching Tota and weren't roleblocked.
You say that opposing Cop Cover isn't alignment indicative, and in the purest case you'd be correct. But two things militate against that. Only two kinds of people knew at the start of Day 2 that there was a Cop, the Cop and Mafia. We know Cyri was Mafia, so their annoyance at Cop Cover is weird if there is no Cop, they could just ignore the false claims being made. But instead they argued pretty passionately against it. That seems odd if they knew it was wholly irrelevant, though admittedly not impossible.
And here is where that points to my not being scum. It would be incredibly unwise for two scum to both go in whole hog arguing the same position. That creates an association. If I were scum with Cyri there is no way I would back them up in argument like that so early in the game. But I had independent reasons for being against the idea. Namely that they put me in an untenable position. If everybody else engaged CC and I didn't, I stand out and increase my odds of being outed or daykilled. If I make up an answer like everyone else is, I run the risk of feeding town bad info if I get nightkilled, potentially condemning the person I picked at random on the basis of my confirmed role. So it isn't that opposing Cop Cover is generally townish, it is that it is consistent with the events I reported. In fact, I think it is the only position I could take.
As for not pushing, I tend to do that when I don't know who is scum. As town I have to bear in mind that a bad push puts us one step closer to a scum victory, and there are enough new players that a slightly less new player acting confident could start a wagon pretty easily. Scum have the luxury of knowing all their targets are equally valid and can afford to start pushes, but this game is small enough that town can afford precious few mistakes.
So you're arguments against me boil down to not revealing the roleblock until I revealed my other night result and my role on Day 3 and not making baseless pushes. I am pretty pleased if that is the best argument against me.
My concern wasn't that I would be revealed as a visiting role, but as an investigative role, there is a difference despite your conflation. I don't know that there is any consensus about informing people about roleblocking. There could be, but it isn't something I have ever been told about, and I have played games where the only communication I got from the GM was my initial rolecard, so I played it safe. I couldn't very well ask anyone about it without providing essentially the same information as announcing it to the scum. Besides which, telling town I was roleblocked would have produced no new information, since we already knew they could roleblock. This benefits no new data for town, but potentially reveals info to scum. So damned right I will stay quiet until I think it is useful for town. That's why I provided a list of all my attempts and results as soon as I went public about my role.
You say that opposing Cop Cover isn't alignment indicative, and in the purest case you'd be correct. But two things militate against that. Only two kinds of people knew at the start of Day 2 that there was a Cop, the Cop and Mafia. We know Cyri was Mafia, so their annoyance at Cop Cover is weird if there is no Cop, they could just ignore the false claims being made. But instead they argued pretty passionately against it. That seems odd if they knew it was wholly irrelevant, though admittedly not impossible.
And here is where that points to my not being scum. It would be incredibly unwise for two scum to both go in whole hog arguing the same position. That creates an association. If I were scum with Cyri there is no way I would back them up in argument like that so early in the game. But I had independent reasons for being against the idea. Namely that they put me in an untenable position. If everybody else engaged CC and I didn't, I stand out and increase my odds of being outed or daykilled. If I make up an answer like everyone else is, I run the risk of feeding town bad info if I get nightkilled, potentially condemning the person I picked at random on the basis of my confirmed role. So it isn't that opposing Cop Cover is generally townish, it is that it is consistent with the events I reported. In fact, I think it is the only position I could take.
As for not pushing, I tend to do that when I don't know who is scum. As town I have to bear in mind that a bad push puts us one step closer to a scum victory, and there are enough new players that a slightly less new player acting confident could start a wagon pretty easily. Scum have the luxury of knowing all their targets are equally valid and can afford to start pushes, but this game is small enough that town can afford precious few mistakes.
So you're arguments against me boil down to not revealing the roleblock until I revealed my other night result and my role on Day 3 and not making baseless pushes. I am pretty pleased if that is the best argument against me.
- Location
- US
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- He/Him
Oh, one thing. I never made a statement about scum actions one way or another, because I don't know. That they do or don't have one action per player is possible. My concern was that you presented it as fact, which suggests you forgot what parts of the set up were presented to everyone and which ones were presented only to the scum team.I visited Meso last night. Would be pretty handy if @Scia could prove that
If she was roleblocked last night, Meso was right about Scum keeping some actions.
Any role that visit someone is kinda informative in combination with a roleblock. In this game, not being able to use your power would be the result of a roleblock. And you normally get informed about your night action results, one way or the other.
It's true that we already knew there was a roleblocker, in contrast to normal games. Doesn't change that bit of suspicious behaviour. You came around with that bit of "additional evidence" you were town later on.
Ok, then let's just say that I'm naive and tend to think that people don't use discussions about technical approaches and differences in playstyle as strategical ammunition. I'd say Cyri would have protested against it even if he wasn't scum. I'd say Nictis would have protested in Morrsley's against using rolecard quoting if he weren't scum. There are things you do as strategy and there are things that are just ideas of what and what don't to do in game.
It's not that you didn't any major pushes like my D3 stunt. It's that you did almost nothing at all. No probing into Zaealix when you called him suspicious, nothing else. You only started to became active yesterday when you went after me.
Fake-Edit: You became more involved when you bussed Zaealix but your first kind of investigation was yesterday.
Well, you pushed that idea yesterday when you tried to pin TMI on me.
You have more experience as scum than me and played more games in general. In how many do you guess scum actions were reduced when scum was killed? In how many did their number of actions each night remain the same?
Extrapolation isn't really new.
- Location
- US
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- He/Him
I don't know whether a Fool would get any feedback at all on their power, sicne it literally produces no result. How much info GMs gove regarding night actions is highly variable. And being roleblocked adds no strength to my claims. If I were lying I could just as easily have said I visited IH and got a town result or a scum result. It adds nothing to my account, I just report it because it is true.
I am sure Cyri's problems with Cop Cover were philosophical, I just think it would be hard to care if you knew for a fact there was no Cop. Maybe the principle of the thing really would bug them that much, but it is hard for me to get into a headspace where I would care. But your attack here hinges on both Cyri and I being scum and both deciding to argue against it when it doesn't matter, which is a bit weird.
I dropped the line of inquiry with regard to Zaealix when the only response I got to it was Shadell saying it was NAI and implying it was a scummy take. We'd voted town two days running, so I was not anxious to see a case built against myself. In general I don't play super aggressive unless I have what I feel is very strong evidence one way or the other. (And I have gotten burned on things I thought were strong evidence so I am even more prone to questioning my reads than I used to be.) Even now I am second guessing whether my scum read on you is correct. It is just how my brain works.
Re: scum actions, there is a difference pushing a conclusion and pointing out information isn't in evidence. You're trying to frame this as a positive claim on my part, which is the opposite of what is actually going on. I've never to my knowledge played a game where scum apparently have a shared list of potential night actions, so I have no idea how that would be divided up. (The last game I played was Debutante Mafia where we only had a night kill and didn't select someone to carry it out. We just voted in scumchat. GMs vary from each other and the same GM can vary across games.)
What concerns me is that you and swarmingu both had a clear idea of how scum powers worked, getting one per scum and having active or passive abilities, which is stuff that was never said to town. This is an open set up, so town got a lot of data day one. Scum got even more. The idea that a scum player might have mixed up which data they were given with town and which was given only to scum is exactly the kind of TMI that is useful for scumhunting. Swarmingu at least presented it as a theory, but you presented it as assumed fact.
So all we got is a list of scum abillities and two scum flipping just as "Mafia" while every townie has a descriptive role. If you extrapolate that with experience, it's very easy to arrive at the conclusion that mafia gets to choose their power each night. The idea of cycling was floating for eons as well. The stuff about passive abillites was introduced by Swarmingu, Tota and partly you with your drawback. I disagreed with that one heavily since a passive, self-aimed lawyer is a Godfather.
But it's interesting how a big part of your accusations only rely on phrasing.
- Location
- US
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- He/Him
That scum pick a power each night is possible, it just wasn't confirmed to town. Town has no way to know how scum powers are arranged. Maybe nonkill powers are only available on certain nights. Maybe some powers are automatic. Maybe one scum can use multiple powers in a single night. All scum abilities being actions in a general pool is sensible enough, but you presented an argument that relied on that assumption as if it were general knowledge, when only the scum powers had been revealed to town. That isn't phrasing, it points to how you understand the game, which includes much more confidence in how scum work than I feel is warranted.
It isn't exactly dead to rights stuff, but it is indicative as part of a larger pattern with your anomalous drawback and scummy push against the emerging towncore.
A Godfather appears as town to Cops. A Lawyer makes other scum appear as town to Cops. Nothing we have seen suggests the idea of a single Godfather. You were arguing that Lawyer must "count" as a scum action.
This points back to a concern for accounting for each scum night actions (along with your comments about a "missing" scum action Night 1 and swarmingu's talking about scum not having enough actions left to Lawyer them.) That is probably something scum are thinking about a lot of they have to allocate actions, but town is in the dark about.
I am sure you are right about how scum powers work, because I assume it was in your rolecard.
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- US
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- He/Him
I've been thinking about @Young Pyromancer s question; what if I am wrong. So here is every possible scum in descending order of likelihood:
Tykan: I've made this argument at length.
Scia: It is possible that they could have bussed Zaealix. It seems really unlikely, not just because that is an unnecessary sacrifice when town 0 and 2 for mislynches, but also because it involves three relatively new players (Zaealix and swarmingu being on their second game and first as scum) coming up with that ploy and executing it that skillfully.
Young Pyromancer: Involves being able to divine Tykan's drawback from nothing. Not precisely impossible since there are only so many ways to arrange such a "power", but deeply unlikely.
Shadell: Was spotted by IH (mechanically confirmed as Town Tracker) visiting ondine the night ondine was both healed and attacked. We know who else was a Doctor and they didn't visit ondine night one. Both the other Doc and ondine are mechanically confirmed as town. Shadell would have to be a literal wizard to pull off being scum at this point.
Mesonoxian: I have a town rolecard. Either I am town or Nictis is running the ultimate bastard game.
Tykan: I've made this argument at length.
Scia: It is possible that they could have bussed Zaealix. It seems really unlikely, not just because that is an unnecessary sacrifice when town 0 and 2 for mislynches, but also because it involves three relatively new players (Zaealix and swarmingu being on their second game and first as scum) coming up with that ploy and executing it that skillfully.
Young Pyromancer: Involves being able to divine Tykan's drawback from nothing. Not precisely impossible since there are only so many ways to arrange such a "power", but deeply unlikely.
Shadell: Was spotted by IH (mechanically confirmed as Town Tracker) visiting ondine the night ondine was both healed and attacked. We know who else was a Doctor and they didn't visit ondine night one. Both the other Doc and ondine are mechanically confirmed as town. Shadell would have to be a literal wizard to pull off being scum at this point.
Mesonoxian: I have a town rolecard. Either I am town or Nictis is running the ultimate bastard game.