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A Simple Transaction I

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Byzantine said:
Finding bosses is not the issue. The issue is that Form of Rage comes with a nasty inbuilt limitation that you can only use it twice before taking an entire day to rest. Meaning more bosses than that that we would need it on and we just flat out die. So far no one has even tried to address this drawback, which is concerning me.
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If we need to use the Form of Rage twice in this dungeon, the other builds are completely and utterly fucked. Do you think any of them will be in better shape after tangoing with two epically dangerous monsters? No, they'll probably get turned into paste directly or else suffer major complications that make the dungeon unwinnable. The Form is at least guaranteed 2 wins with an entirely predictable and not super serious condition which we can work around.

Moreover, what happens if those monsters are a poor match up for the choices we've made? Generalist options like the Form or the Ring have a decent response to whatever comes our way. Meanwhile, how would Thousand Reaper deal with an ambush predator or series of traps? How would Undying Vanguard handle a defensively enemy? At least an extra life can save us from an additional fuckup regardless of the source.
 
Wolfy said:
Could someone give me a quick rundown on why Tired is suddenly a important consideration seeing how no one cared about it when we were picking Thousand Cuts?
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Falls reduces the rate of stamina loss that Cuts causes, the rate is also not explicitly laid out like it is in Form of Rage so we can probably use it more than twice without becoming exhausted.
 
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[X] Philosopher's Wreath - 7 Arete (2 picks)

You know imma leave my vote here for now. Maybe it can become the focal of a consolidation, but I doubt it.
Byzantine said:
The issue there is we do not know what Graces we would have access to. I'd rather something I know now that we're set on this course.
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Rihaku said it would be synergistic. We'd likely get a choice.
 
I think the build vote will be at the end of the dungeon. It's typically dungeon etiquette that the strong monster waits in the boss room.

At the end of the day no one knows what this temple is going to be composed of. Because of that I think rounding out our build gives us the best chance to make it through.

I wouldn't be opposed to a build that also just got Rage Form instead of cuts, or even a build that got Wreath with the goal to shore up our offense via a Grace. I think they all fulfill the same basic function, physical stats to beat multiple lesser enemies and offense to kill a potential boss. I just like thousand cuts the most of those 3 options.
 
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runeblue360 said:
If we need to use the Form of Rage twice in this dungeon, the other builds are completely and utterly fucked. Do you think any of them will be in better shape after tangoing with two epically dangerous monsters?
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We won't use Rage twice becuase the other builds would have been dead without it but because Rage is that builds only card to play. It'll have to be drawn against monsters that wouldn't warrant it's use but can't be beaten because the build has no other offensive options.

Wolfy said:
Wait, we can pick 7AP ring options without getting 2AP ones first? Damn.
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2 aret for undying + 9 for preeminence = 11
 
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Byzantine said:
Honestly? Probably not against most opponents. But some of them? Oh yeah, they could depress him into not feeling rage. Seralize is a good example.
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She wasn't even close to pushing him to the limit. He saw that he could easily manipulate her and took that option. I mean, he wasn't unaffected, but it was mostly really good acting. We see what he actually feels when on death's door in the first chapter:
Rihaku said:
In the hero's final moments, despair and hate raging equally across his heart, comes a being with the form of a man, offering vengeance in the form of a bargain.
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He's not going to just stop because of momentary doubts, there's too much weight behind those feelings.
 
runeblue360 said:
If we need to use the Form of Rage twice in this dungeon, the other builds are completely and utterly fucked. Do you think any of them will be in better shape after tangoing with two epically dangerous monsters? No, they'll probably get turned into paste directly or else suffer major complications that make the dungeon unwinnable. The Form is at least guaranteed 2 wins with an entirely predictable and not super serious condition which we can work around.
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Except that by getting Form of Rage we will be alone and lack a form of serious offense. And we won't be able to afford a second 7 Arete pick, so no getting Cuts or something else to help later. If we were farther along you would be right, but this build vote actually represents a significant portion of our power, meaning that choosing a different 7 Arete option will seriously increase our base strength compared to the base strength with Rage. Which is the reason why Hunger with rage is more likely to be forced into a corner than Hunger with any of the other 7 arete options.

Unelemental said:
He's not going to just stop because of momentary doubts, there's too much weight behind those feelings.
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A momentary doubt at the wrong moment will kill him. That's just how Form of Rage works - if he's an a low at the exact moment he dies, oops.
 
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[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear X3
-[X] 2 Arete: Undying Echo
[X] Forebear's Blade - A Thousand Cuts - 7 Arete (0 picks)
[X] Letrizia - Hollow Star

Hello sirs, do you have a moment to talk about our Lord and Savior Swole Hunger?

+++ STR, +++ AGI and ++++++ CON - better than Einhander without giving up an arm. Are you worried about damage? Do you wish to DOOOOOOOOODGE like the very best? Do you want to be Big Daddy and shame the casuls swinging sticks at you? Pick this and never look back!

Thousand Cuts means that you can finally have a Final Attack worthy of that name. In fact, all your normal attacks are Final Attacks - every wound wittles down your foes and they can't heal! For every hit you take, your enemies will be hurt thousandfold!

Vote for the Nightmare of Dungeons! If you fear grinding, this build is pure Anti-Grind - too strong and tough to be killed, while whatever is in front of you is slowly cut to pieces and eaten! And even if you die, you come back as an even more slippery spectre who is even more annoying - and then regenerates anyway.
 
Byzantine said:
That's actually the best part about Vanguard. While it doesn't help Hunger's sustain it does help Gisena's. And Hunger's insane growth rate means we should be able to get something to complement it shortly. Thus rather than getting weaker with time spent in the dungeon we'll get stronger. The downside is pretty much that the first fight is going to suck if it isn't something Gisena is good against.
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Does that help with spiritual exhaustion? I can't recall. If it does it's probably better, but even then its value swings on how effective Gisena's Nullity ends up being.

Shard said:
It's not backloaded if you select the correct Grace. Rihaku suggested going from 1/8 of a Witch Hunter to 8/10 of a Witch-Hunter with a pure physical stats Grace, which is like a 6x improvement in physical stats.
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He confirmed we get to pick graces? Well crap, that option just got a lot more insane.

It makes me wonder just how insane the Praxis actually is that Maidengrace is still considered weaker than the Noble version.
 
Byzantine said:
A momentary doubt at the wrong moment will kill him. That's just how Form of Rage works - if he's an a low at the exact moment he dies, oops.
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I don't think that's how it works? It's a question of whether you want to fight on. Doubts might appear, but on the whole he has much more important motivations that aren't so easily dislodged as to just give up.
 
Rihaku said:
You guys can also go the 11 Arete Ring build - Echo + Undying, Preeminence: War. Very good stats, over 18 points!
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Can you take Undying multiple times like Echo? I presume so since theres an undying built into Vanguard. If so Vanguard + echox2 + undyingx2 is a viable build! Also 18 stats but all muscle wizard stats instead instead of inferior stats like Int and Cha!
 
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Rihaku said:
You guys can also go the 11 Arete Ring build - Echo + Undying, Preeminence: War. Very good stats, over 18 points!
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Again with the evil temptation. How can you handle waving this and "You never know what challenges you'll find in the Temple" at the same time! The ring vote is critically weak to challenges that don't fall under the ring's purview!

Box Lunch said:
Does that help with spiritual exhaustion? I can't recall. If it does it's probably better, but even then its value swings on how effective Gisena's Nullity ends up being.
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Not entirely sure. The healing ability os apparently quite strong, though. And I agree, it's something of a calculated risk that we can reach the first checkpoint and cash in with just the sheer improvements to our base stats it represents.

Box Lunch said:
He confirmed we get to pick graces? Well crap, that option just got a lot more insane.
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He said we'll get to pick a Grace but did not give us the list of what graces we can pick from. Temptations, as always. Downside to this is of course the 8-hour limit and that this is really something which builds up over time and becomes stronger the longer have it, while for the Temple we need significant immediate power.

Unelemental said:
I don't think that's how it works? It's a question of whether you want to fight on. Doubts might appear, but on the whole he has much more important motivations that aren't so easily dislodged as to just give up.
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And if in that last critical moment it falls into "no" then you die for real. This is a minor issue, though. Only becomes really relevant against something that has a depression aura or similar.
 
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[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
-[X] 2 Arete: Undying Echo
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the ForebearX2
-[X] 2 Arete: Undying EchoX2
[X] Forebear's Blade - Undying Vanguard - 7 Arete

The ultimate stats tank build! 3 copies of echo! 3 copies of Undying! Vanguard for companion tanks! ++++++++++++ Constitution +++ strength +++agility! Ludicrous stamina! Gisena screen time!
 
LordOfMurder said:
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
-[X] 2 Arete: Undying Echo
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the ForebearX2
-[X] 2 Arete: Undying EchoX2
[X] Forebear's Blade - Undying Vanguard - 7 Arete

The ultimate stats tank build! 3 copies of echo! 3 copies of Undying! Vanguard for companion tanks! ++++++++++++ Constitution +++ strength +++agility! Ludicrous stamina! Gisena screen time!
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I don't think that is a valid build. We may only take Undying Echo once.

This is the full blurb from when it appeared individually:
-[ ] 2 Arete: Undying Echo - The Forebear could withstand unbelievable punishment, only to rise again. [+++Constitution]
 
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One thing is the temple is probably not tuned for Progression level scaling. How important this ends up being depends on whether it's actually as big inside as it looks outside and its contents if so. If there's thousands of floors each with worthy challenges to pass, probably only the starting portions would actually be hugely dangerous and then it would eventually start falling off. If it's more all or nothing this doesn't really come into play. I feel like either choice incentivizes single focus builds regardless though. Either there's time to explore and grow in the necessary directions inside as long as you have a strong enough start to stay relevant, or you want a laser focused build immediately for the main effort and just have to hope it's the one suitable for the task at hand. In either case versatility seems like less strong an opener.

This makes me less sold on the Ring build I was previously keen on.
 
Byzantine said:
Fall + Echo (2x) + Undying Echo (0 picks) + Cuts (0 picks) : 11 Arete
++++STR, +++++CON, +++AGI: 12 stats, all the extra bonus of Cuts and Fall
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If we're talking about 11 Arete builds, i just want to say that boy oh boy this got me excited.

One component of Vanguard that has gone unremarked*: Letrizia is empowered by Vanguard but her robot is not. This leaves her actual combat capacity mostly unchanged. Therefore I am unwilling to say that Vanguard automatically frees up Gisena to join us in the dungeon.


*Maybe. i dont know. you people write a lot. maybe i missed someone's ninja post
 
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Zampano said:
One component of Vanguard that has gone unremarked: Letrizia is empowered by Vanguard but her robot is not. This leaves her actual combat capacity mostly unchanged. Therefore I am unwilling to say that Vanguard automatically frees up Gisena to join us in the dungeon.
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Rihaku has said that if we took it bringing Gisena into the Temple would be rather safe for them both.
 
Unelemental said:
I don't think that's how it works? It's a question of whether you want to fight on. Doubts might appear, but on the whole he has much more important motivations that aren't so easily dislodged as to just give up.
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I guess it depends how a compelling reason to keep fighting is adjudicated. Depending on its specificity and intensity, it could require anything from visceral, overwhelming fury to merely a strong antipathy towards defeat.

What's interesting to me about Form of Rage is how it gives incentive to risk-taking, but only in the instance that risk is for a deeply desirable outcome. Save an innocent, slay a dragon, survive just one more day? All highly reasonable ideas for what might qualify. Get rich quick, steal ancient secrets, court a waifu? Probably not as strong a reason to fight, so not as likely to be protected. It lends weight to Hunger's idea of important as opposed to ours, without shoving it down our throats or forcing a specific style of play.

A lot of that's lost if it's just an emotional weak-point for some oddball magic system to target.
 
Oh, why not. Since the decision as to how many hands to have doesn't looks to be being made today, lets go for broadest spectrum boosts high investment plan.

[X] Echo of the Forebear
[X] Undying Echo - 2 Arete
[X] The Ring of Power - Dominion - 2 Arete
-[X]War
[X] The Ring of Power - Preeminence - 7 Arete
-[X]War
[X] Gisena - Sorcerous Advancement I
 
Cerillian said:
Oh, why not. Since the decision as to how many hands to have doesn't looks to be being made today, lets go for broadest spectrum boosts high investment plan.
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This is a conditional broad spectrum boost, though. You only get the stats for things that fall under the purview of war. Which puzzles do not. It's not a bad pick, just need to be careful to remember its only active some of the time.
 
LordOfMurder said:
We won't use Rage twice becuase the other builds would have been dead without it but because Rage is that builds only card to play. It'll have to be drawn against monsters that wouldn't warrant it's use but can't be beaten because the build has no other offensive options.
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Byzantine said:
Except that by getting Form of Rage we will be alone and lack a form of serious offense. And we won't be able to afford a second 7 Arete pick, so no getting Cuts or something else to help later. If we were farther along you would be right, but this build vote actually represents a significant portion of our power, meaning that choosing a different 7 Arete option will seriously increase our base strength compared to the base strength with Rage. Which is the reason why Hunger with rage is more likely to be forced into a corner than Hunger with any of the other 7 arete options.
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In the specific scenarios you describe, your respective builds have an advantage, sure but the framing involved is entirely contrary to reality. Because we don't actually know what's in there, we have no intel. Why then would you choose a more specialized build set up to counter specific types of danger? You're assuming that your selected builds will be capable of facing whatever opponent we face first but that's entirely an assumption on your part, one that you've entirely failed to address.

Seriously, what happens if Cuts fights an epically dangerous ambush predator? It dies before it can even make use of the 7 Arete it spent. What happens to a Vanguard that fights a supremely defensive enemy? It fails to make a mark and gets squished. If you want to be guaranteed to defeat the first opponent and thus let Progression come into play, Rage is by far the safest choice.

Thomasfoolery said:
One thing is the temple is probably not tuned for Progression level scaling. How important this ends up being depends on whether it's actually as big inside as it looks outside and its contents if so. If there's thousands of floors each with worthy challenges to pass, probably only the starting portions would actually be hugely dangerous and then it would eventually start falling off. If it's more all or nothing this doesn't really come into play. I feel like either choice incentivizes single focus builds regardless though. Either there's time to explore and grow in the necessary directions inside as long as you have a strong enough start to stay relevant, or you want a laser focused build immediately for the main effort and just have to hope it's the one suitable for the task at hand. In either case versatility seems like less strong an opener.

This makes me less sold on the Ring build I was previously keen on.
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That's why you should take both versatility and power with the Form of Rage. We only need to win a fight to pull previously impossible opponents into our reach, which Form of Rage would let us do regardless of the type of opponent. Why gamble with the hope that the challenges within this entirely unknown Temple will suit our build when you can just pick something that can face off against any type of challenge? That would let us make full use of a Progressor's growth no matter how the inside is structured.
 
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