LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
I'd prefer vanguard but if people are going to take the all offense cuts build there's no need to take Hollow star since we'll be leaving Gisena with Zea.
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
Form of Rage will get us killed in this dungeon. As soon as we have to use it the next fight becomes twice as difficult because we get the tired debuff. That will lead to us needing to use it again making us exhausted. Then since we'll have almost no rank buff fights will be even harder again and some of our abilities won't work properly. It'll lead to a death spiral we won't be able to escape becuase we'll be burning all our arete on Rage activation's.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
It's taken the place of Azure Moon in my longer-term ideas. It just isn't what we need right now.
DarkSideBard
Flying, without moving on
Grog not care. Grog in tune with Grog's choices, especially choice to hit things hard and break them.
Grog make choices based on immediate feeling, and justify with flimsy post-hoc analysis of vote options. Grog is optimal quester!
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
And note by my reading we can't use Form of Rage at all when Exhausted. ...or it kills us for real when it ends. Either way it requires recovery time we cannot afford in this dungeon - remember every hour we spend here is an hour our companions might be getting attacked by a truly nasty Astral Beast.
This means we literally get to use it once prior to the final boss, and once for the final boss. Any other usage and we have to flee and rest.
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You thought Muscle Wizard lost, but he'd just taken another Form to come back stronger than ever!
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
I just wish I understood why I'm so bad at getting my point across. Let me try breaking it down.
My issues with Form of Rage:
My issues with Form of Rage:
- It comes at a cost of 1 arete or pick per use. This is a fairly minor one unless people are stupid about it. Which, let's be honest, we probably will be.
- It comes at the cost of being tired then exhausted after use. This is normally not such a big deal, it simply means we need to rest between uses.
- Unfortunately we are entering the Temple and leaving our companions to be besieged by Astral beasts for as long as we stay. Thus, we cannot spend an excessively long period inside the Temple.
- Combining the above points we are spending 7 arete for an ability we can only use twice in our entire time in the Temple. And the second time will leave us a hair's length away from death due to exhaustion.
- Due to this literally any of the other 7 Arete options are a better pick at this junction, as they will be less limited in use within the Temple.
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Let's see...
Form of Rage is amazing in general, but our odds of being able to use it in-dungeon are low because we need RAEG to use it. Bringing Gisena in to help could work, but then Letrizia's outside begging to get damsel'd.
Undying Vanguard is similarly top-tier, but in the immediate sense its only major benefit is allowing Gisena to leave behind Letrizia outside. The amount of aid she can provide is not a guarantee.
Philosopher's Wreath is something we're going to be looking forward to for awhile, I feel. But its benefits are back-loaded, where synergy opens up new realms of opportunity to replace the ones passed up while escalating.
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[X] Forebear's Blade - Fall of Night - 2 Arete
[X] The Ring of Power - Dominion - 2 Arete
[X] Letrizia - Hollow Star
Free is overrated. Modest gains are still gains - and three more Strength is hardly modest. Between ranged combat and boosted damage, our reliance on cross counters and Fell-Handed Strokes should lessen, reducing how much actual injury and exhaustion we receive per fight.
In my experience, that's what kills dungeon crawlers. The attrition. They put themselves on a pace, get rattled, cocky, or both, and then get sloppy. Going longer without getting sloppy means going farther without getting weaker. Once we get past the threshers, that's when we'll need every ounce of power we can muster. Monster, trap, puzzle, or dinner date - once we're up to our necks, that's when both risk and reward are highest. We won't be willing to leave, even if the odds are bad. We have to engage on good terms, or we won't just fail the dungeon - we'll probably die to our own hubris.
I can hear the proverbial cowards laughing from here.
Form of Rage is amazing in general, but our odds of being able to use it in-dungeon are low because we need RAEG to use it. Bringing Gisena in to help could work, but then Letrizia's outside begging to get damsel'd.
Undying Vanguard is similarly top-tier, but in the immediate sense its only major benefit is allowing Gisena to leave behind Letrizia outside. The amount of aid she can provide is not a guarantee.
Philosopher's Wreath is something we're going to be looking forward to for awhile, I feel. But its benefits are back-loaded, where synergy opens up new realms of opportunity to replace the ones passed up while escalating.
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[X] Forebear's Blade - Fall of Night - 2 Arete
[X] The Ring of Power - Dominion - 2 Arete
[X] Letrizia - Hollow Star
Free is overrated. Modest gains are still gains - and three more Strength is hardly modest. Between ranged combat and boosted damage, our reliance on cross counters and Fell-Handed Strokes should lessen, reducing how much actual injury and exhaustion we receive per fight.
In my experience, that's what kills dungeon crawlers. The attrition. They put themselves on a pace, get rattled, cocky, or both, and then get sloppy. Going longer without getting sloppy means going farther without getting weaker. Once we get past the threshers, that's when we'll need every ounce of power we can muster. Monster, trap, puzzle, or dinner date - once we're up to our necks, that's when both risk and reward are highest. We won't be willing to leave, even if the odds are bad. We have to engage on good terms, or we won't just fail the dungeon - we'll probably die to our own hubris.
I can hear the proverbial cowards laughing from here.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
That's actually the best part about Vanguard. While it doesn't help Hunger's sustain it does help Gisena's. And Hunger's insane growth rate means we should be able to get something to complement it shortly. Thus rather than getting weaker with time spent in the dungeon we'll get stronger. The downside is pretty much that the first fight is going to suck if it isn't something Gisena is good against.
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- Location
- USA
This ignores the positives. If the temple has a boss who is an epic monster or something Rage is probably the choice most suited to win. It gives 3 lives, and the last multiplies Hunger in battle by 3.
It also leads itself to a different playstyle, where we are able to attack and defeat high level monsters for xp rewards instead at the cost of 1 Arete.
I'm less a fan because I think the reality is that it's going to be difficult to execute successfully.
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
Grog should consider Einhander for extra tough feel if that all Grog care about.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
I was explicitly not going through the positives? I mean, read the title?
But seriously, yet it gives an amazing boost. Twice. In our entire time in the temple. That does not strike me as wise for a place that is apparently so dangerous Rihaku harped on it for quite some time.
Is that really any different from what the Cuts build is trying to do? Get a massive temporary powerup that allows us to strike down boss mobs? Just Cuts does it without the regular Arete cost or the super-rapid stamina depletion. (And the non-zero risk of hunger just keeling over dead as he had insufficient reason to keep going.)
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You seriously think Vendettaboy will have trouble summoning up RAEG in his final moments? I know Hunger didn't show much focus on his ultimate goal so far in his thoughts, but this pick was specifically noted for being super-determined at the start. There's no lack of things to be angry about in his life too.
And we aren't going into the Temple of Slightly More Dangerous Encounters. We're going into the Temple of the False Moon, noted for being a pretty suicidal choice without multiple advancements. I'm not that worried about not finding impossible bosses in there.
Well, actually, I think it's going to be full of intellectual puzzles and contrived challenges, but that way lies the hopeless path of nerd builds.
And we aren't going into the Temple of Slightly More Dangerous Encounters. We're going into the Temple of the False Moon, noted for being a pretty suicidal choice without multiple advancements. I'm not that worried about not finding impossible bosses in there.
Well, actually, I think it's going to be full of intellectual puzzles and contrived challenges, but that way lies the hopeless path of nerd builds.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
Honestly? Probably not against most opponents. But some of them? Oh yeah, they could depress him into not feeling rage. Seralize is a good example.
Finding bosses is not the issue. The issue is that Form of Rage comes with a nasty inbuilt limitation that you can only use it twice before taking an entire day to rest. Meaning more bosses than that that we would need it on and we just flat out die. So far no one has even tried to address this drawback, which is concerning me.
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LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
Yeah but it's only useful if the epic monster is at the beginning of the dungeon. If this was the last update before the end boss of the dungeon I'd agree with you but there's probably going to be another build vote before we get there so at the moment Rage is just dead weight.
I think you're underemphasizing this disadvantage. As an arete choice form of Rage is worse the more we use it. If we have to use this twice it cost us a 7 arete option + a 2 arete option. Since taking it now means it's our only offensive option we're going to have to use it and every time we do we sacrifice arete points we could have used to build more power.
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Rihaku
The Internet
I see you and your Arete-farming ways! You won't fool me!
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
It's not backloaded if you select the correct Grace. Rihaku suggested going from 1/8 of a Witch Hunter to 8/10 of a Witch-Hunter with a pure physical stats Grace, which is like a 6x improvement in physical stats.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
That argument wasn't getting through so I decided to try to explain why it puts us in significantly more mortal danger than the other picks.
The issue there is we do not know what Graces we would have access to. I'd rather something I know now that we're set on this course.
Cuts does not give the Condition Tired unless heavily overused (ala like when we did Fishing and *just kept going* after we should have passed out), and this can be mitigated by getting Fall of Night, which heavily reduces the stamina cost. And tired itself isn't an issue. The issue is that you need to rest after you get to that point, and we can't rest in the temple so we either turn back or keep going. If we keep going and use Rage again we'll be exhausted, and that will kill us or drive us from the temple. Probably kill us.
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