I actually preferred your previous build. Fall of Night synergizes well with A Thousand Cuts since it greatly decreases the costs of ranged attacks with the Sword. I'm mostly arguing with your build for Team reasons, not because I disagree with its viability. If we were solo or didn't need to worry about splitting the party I'd be all for it, even.
Okay then. This vote would kind of benefit from a run-off, since Stats vanguard kinda ran off into a band-wagon, no offence. I'd be interested in a Ring option, for example.

But speed rules complicated votes like this since people are naturally drawn towards the path of least resistance, which is to vote for a plan someone else already made. Really want a run-off.
 
For every one I pick up I lose one.

I don't like the Form of Rage pick because it's putting all our eggs in a very expensive basket that we have to keep putting coins in every time we need to use it. It is a good emergency option, but with what else the build provides and doesn't provide I worry we'll basically have to spam it, going into a low-arete spiral, where we keep having to spend arete/advancements on Form of Rage so can't afford to buy things that would actually progress us fast enough. It seems like an easy way to fall behind Apocryphal without ever realizing the trap.

Having an extremely powerful fallback option with a cost in Arete is a great thing because it means the thread might actually learn a measure of caution instead of going YOLO every time, which would lead to net savings.

Moreover, spending one Arete to boost our power so absurdly high is actually incredible because it's effectively a cheap method of trading Arete for 3-4 picks. Unlike in EFB, BP is not our only source of advancement. We can't shy away from spending it if it could potentially save our life and make us significantly stronger. It's more like the Limit Break + Scythe option from last quest, really.

It's actually really good value.
 
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Having an extremely powerful fallback option with a cost in Arete is a great thing because it means the thread might actually learn a measure of caution instead of going YOLO every time. Moreover, spending one Arete to boost our power so absurdly high is actually incredible because it's effectively a cheap method of trading Arete for 3-4 picks. Unlike in EFB, BP is not our only source of advancement. If we'd been able to pull this out, the Tyrant Beast and the Scenic Route wouldn't have been nearly as dangerous. We can't shy away from spending it if it could potentially save our life.


It's actually really good value.

Remember the Congressional Sequester and how people thought that would work as incentive?
 
Having an extremely powerful fallback option with a cost in Arete is a great thing because it means the thread might actually learn a measure of caution instead of going YOLO every time, which would leave to net savings.

Moreover, spending one Arete to boost our power so absurdly high is actually incredible because it's effectively a cheap method of trading Arete for 3-4 picks. Unlike in EFB, BP is not our only source of advancement. We can't shy away from spending it if it could potentially save our life and make us significantly stronger. It's more like the Limit Break + Scythe option from last quest, really.

It's actually really good value.
It's a less powerful boost than Thousand Cuts has access to at all times. Thousand Cuts also doesn't have activation requirements or automatic drawbacks.
 
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I really hope he's not one of them though, an amicable meeting between a restored Hunger and the Forebear would be really cool.

Unfortunately there are some aspects of their natures that make them rather fundamentally inimical to each other. But with strange aeons...

I don't like the Form of Rage pick because it's putting all our eggs in a very expensive basket that we have to keep putting coins in every time we need to use it. It is a good emergency option, but with what else the build provides and doesn't provide I worry we'll basically have to spam it, going into a low-arete spiral, where we keep having to spend arete/advancements on Form of Rage so can't afford to buy things that would actually progress us fast enough. It seems like an easy way to fall behind Apocryphal without ever realizing the trap.

If you use Form only on enemies that you couldn't beat without Form, it would be a way to accrue high-pick options quickly... in that sense it can be the most powerful farming build, though you'd need pristine target selection.
 
If you use Form only on enemies that you couldn't beat without Form, it would be a way to accrue high-pick options quickly... in that sense it can be the most powerful farming build, though you'd need pristine target selection.
Oh, I agree proper and judicious use of form of rage backed up by strong base-level abilities would work beautifully.

There is not the slightest chance this thread is going to be able to maintain the disci... SHINY!
 
I don't like options that only become good when we play like shit, that's just more likely to encourage reckless behavior than not because we would have a "panic button". It's also a bad pick for Temple specifically because we're done the moment we activate it while a straightforward power option makes us more likely to just succeed in the first place and reap the rewards.
 
If I was voting purely on blurb power I think form of Rage would be my top pick though.
If the quest was only me I'd certainly be considering it. I just don't trust the rest of you. No offense, that fish vote just... shudders.

And the discipline required to use it perfectly is already difficult even in ideal conditions with only a single voter instead of a group of cats with 50 different destinations. So as I said, an option for when we basically *can't* press it unless we really need to.
 
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I... don't think we've been reading the same thread. :confused:

You can see it right here. While people are very gung ho about risks, they shy away significantly more from spending limited resources on seemingly temporary benefits. See also: King's Blood vs. Fierce Vigour. If you can argue that we might have to spend Arete on Form of Rage to survive a battle, I think you'll find people a lot more wary of doing so, even if the benefits could be worth it.

It's a less powerful boost than Thousand Cuts has access to at all times. Thousand Cuts also doesn't have activation requires or automatic drawbacks to activation.

Thousand Cuts is a great offensive boost, don't get me wrong, but it's not really as good as a 3 fold boost to all Attributes. This includes stuff like Intelligence to improve our tactics, Charisma and Manipulation for social combat, Protection to block hilarious amounts of damage, Luck for a bonus to everything.

Meanwhile, Thousand Cuts relies on the initial salvo to defeat enemies of a significantly higher power. If they detect us beforehand or survive anyway, it would have a very, very bad time. When you're up against an opponent who can teleport, that's a really bad place to be.

Also, Rank is the godstat and Thousand Cuts does nothing to improve that.
 
You can see it right here. While people are very gung ho about risks, they shy away significantly more from spending limited resources on seemingly temporary benefits. See also: King's Blood vs. Fierce Vigour. If you can argue that we might have to spend Arete on Form of Rage to survive a battle, I think you'll find people a lot more wary of doing so, even if the benefits could be worth it.
Note that not picking King's Blood nearly got Letiz killed and caused us to leave Ber alive so we could help her and recover ourselves.

So yeah, I don't trust people not to end up getting us in situations where we need to trigger Form of Rage and then being pissy that we did... then doing it all over again when the next opportunity presents itself.
 
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If the quest was only me I'd certainly be considering it. I just don't trust the rest of you. No offense, that fish vote just... shudders.
Form of Rage basically only rewards incredibly reckless play. If we're not in a fight for our life it doesn't even work and we just die.

Thousand Cuts is a great offensive boost, don't get me wrong, but it's not really as good as a 3 fold boost to all Attributes. This includes stuff like Intelligence to improve our tactics, Charisma and Manipulation for social combat, Protection to block hilarious amounts of damage, Luck for a bonus to everything.

Meanwhile, Thousand Cuts relies on the initial salvo to defeat enemies of a significantly higher power. If they detect us beforehand or survive anyway, it would have a very, very bad time. When you're up against an opponent who can teleport, that's a really bad place to be.

Also, Rank is the godstat and Thousand Cuts does nothing to improve that.
I think 7 times the strength and agility is still stronger than a threefold boost to all. Maybe it would be different if we'd invested substantially in other stats before this but those will be our two highest stats after this vote so they'll get a bigger boost from being multiplied. At a certain point if you're strong and fast enough and all you have is a sword the other stats just don't matter as much.

Thousand cuts with Fall is far more spammable than Form of Rage. We can definitely use it more than once a fight, it's basically just an upgraded Fell handed strike. It'll tire us out if we overuse it but that's shouldn't be as much as a problem with the reduced stamina cost.
 
Note that not picking King's Blood nearly got Letiz killed and caused us to leave Ber alive so we could help her and recover ourselves.

So yeah, I don't trust people not to end up getting us in situations where we need to trigger Form of Rage and then being pissy that we did... then doing it all over again when the next opportunity presents itself.

And is that any different from the norm? We've seen exactly what risk taking gets us in the past and yet we turned down the relatively safe Hunt for the incredibly risky and dangerous Temple. Right after this vote you've got people talking about how we should have taken the Really Scenic Route to come here because our roll was good. If we're going to end up in these situations anyway, we should take something that can get us out in one piece.

Moreover, if we're in a situation where we really, truly need to use the Form of Rage, the rewards will likely be amazing. Consider how powerful Stranglethorn or Ruinous Valour are. It's certainly worth more than 1 Arete. While getting it would be absurdly, ridiculously dangerous as we are now, the Form of Rage could fix that issue entirely and put it within our reach.

The fact is that Progressors derive benefit from these sorts of death or glory situations, us moreso than most. For the relatively low price of 1 Arete, would you not want to grab a high pick option? Because that's effectively the tradeoff here.
 
Not even bothering to consolidate given the difference in preference between Gisesna/Letrizia, so Vanguard should have 2~3 more votes.
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by BrainInAJar on Jun 4, 2020 at 1:14 AM, finished with 165 posts and 28 votes.

  • [X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Fall of Night - 2 Arete
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Undying Vanguard - 7 Arete.
    [X] Letrizia - Hollow Star
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the ForebearX2
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Fall of Night - 2 Arete
    [X] Forebear's Blade - A Thousand Cuts - 7 Arete (0 picks)
    [X] Letrizia - Hollow Star
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
    [X] The Ring of Power - Dominion - 2 Arete
    [X] The Ring of Power - Preeminence - 7 Arete
    [X] Gisena - Sorcerous Advancement I
    [X] Plan Gisena Supremacy!
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Fall of Night - 2 Arete
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Undying Vanguard - 7 Arete.
    [X] Gisena - Sorcerous Advancement I
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Undying Echo - 2 Arete
    [X] Evening Sky - Philosopher's Wreath - 7 Arete (2 picks)
    [X] Gisena - Sorcerous Advancement I
    [X] Forebear's Blade - A Thousand Cuts - 7 Arete (0 picks)
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor (3 picks)
    -[X] Zweihander
    [X] Gisena - Sorcerous Advancement I
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the ForebearX2
    -[X] 2 Arete: Undying Echo
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Form of Rage - 7 Arete
    [X] Letrizia - Hollow Star
    [X] Philosopher's Wreath - 7 Arete (2 picks)
    [X] Echo of the Forebear
    -[X] Undying Echo - 2 Arete
    [X] Letrizia - Hollow Star
    [X] Philosopher's Wreath - 7 Arete (2 picks)
    [X] Echo of the Forebear
    -[X] Undying Echo - 2 Arete
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
    [X] The Ring of Power - Dominion - 2 Arete
    [X] The Ring of Power - Preeminence - 7 Arete
    [X] Letrizia - Hollow Star
    [X] Plan Sorcery
    -[X] Evening Sky - Philosopher's Wreath - 7 Arete (2 picks)
    -[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear + Undying Echo
    [X] Forebear's Blade - A Thousand Cuts - 7 Arete (0 picks)
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor
    [X] Zweihander
    [X] Letrizia - Hollow Star
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Fall of Night - 2 Arete
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Undying Vanguard - 7 Arete.
    [X] Letrizia - Hollow Star
    [X] Forebear's Blade - A Thousand Cuts - 7 Arete (0 picks)
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor (3 picks)
    -[X] Einhander
    [X] Gisena - Sorcerous Advancement I
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the ForebearX2
    [X] Forebear's Blade - A Thousand Cuts - 7 Arete
    [X] Evening Sky - Opalescence
    [X] Letrizia - Hollow Star
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the ForebearX2
    -[X] 2 Arete: Undying Echo
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Form of Rage - 7 Arete
    [X] Letrizia - Hollow Star
 
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[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[X] The Ring of Power - Dominion - 2 Arete
[X] The Ring of Power - Preeminence - 7 Arete
[X] Letrizia - Hollow Star

There is little on selection that can match the power of Rank, and that ++ to physical stats and + to all stats is incredibly useful. This plan probably won't win, but hopefully Rihaku will do a consolidation round and this might get into that list.

As for my opinions on the two currently leading plans, the Cuts build is my preference due to it having massively higher offense at the cost of a whopping 2 stats. The buff to companion survivability is indeed nifty, but Conservative won the last vote, which means our companions will be together outside the temple and thus should be fairly safe.
 
And is that any different from the norm?
It isn't. It comes at a cost of accumulated power. That's my entire problem with it. It isn't just "short term over long term" it's "every time you trigger this your long term gets a little farther away."

Conservative won the last vote, which means our companions will be together outside the temple and thus should be fairly safe
Note if Vanguard wins we can bring Gisena with us since the situation will have changed dramatically.
 
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You're actually at nearly 10 Arete, now that I've caught up on fanworks. You could theoretically start selecting 11 Arete options, or maybe draw back and spend only 7 so that you can spend 7 again in the Temple itself? Triple Echo + Thousand Cuts is looking mighty tempting... you'd only need to save 3 Arete more and go into debt once, what a steal!
 
You're actually at nearly 10 Arete, now that I've caught up on fanworks. You could theoretically start selecting 11 Arete options, or maybe draw back and spend only 7 so that you can spend 7 again in the Temple itself? Triple Echo + Thousand Cuts is looking mighty tempting... you'd only need to save 3 Arete more and go into debt once, what a steal!

If we type hard enough, we'll be able to take the ultra hidden build of

[ ] Forebear's Blade - A Thousand Cuts
[ ] Forebear's Blade - Undying Vanguard
plus two other picks

in one go!!
 
You're actually at nearly 10 Arete, now that I've caught up on fanworks. You could theoretically start selecting 11 Arete options, or maybe draw back and spend only 7 so that you can spend 7 again in the Temple itself? Triple Echo + Thousand Cuts is looking mighty tempting... you'd only need to save 3 Arete more and go into debt once, what a steal!
Ooh neat... That build that got disqualified earlier? It's on the table now.

Fall + Echo (2x) + Undying Echo (0 picks) + Cuts (0 picks) : 11 Arete
++++STR, +++++CON, +++AGI: 12 stats, all the extra bonus of Cuts and Fall

This is basically ramming +3 CON onto the current Cuts build at the cost of 2 Arete. I find that acceptable since I believe we should get Vanguard at some point anyway and this would reduce the cost to a mere 5 Arete in the future!

If we type hard enough, we'll be able to take the ultra hidden build of

[ ] Forebear's Blade - A Thousand Cuts
[ ] Forebear's Blade - Undying Vanguard

plus two other picks

in one go!!
Yes, that pick would be Ideal. Probably two Echos as support.
 
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Thousand Cuts is a great offensive boost, don't get me wrong, but it's not really as good as a 3 fold boost to all Attributes. This includes stuff like Intelligence to improve our tactics, Charisma and Manipulation for social combat, Protection to block hilarious amounts of damage, Luck for a bonus to everything.

Meanwhile, Thousand Cuts relies on the initial salvo to defeat enemies of a significantly higher power. If they detect us beforehand or survive anyway, it would have a very, very bad time. When you're up against an opponent who can teleport, that's a really bad place to be.

Also, Rank is the godstat and Thousand Cuts does nothing to improve that.
I mean yeah, if we could use Form of Rage whenever we want, it would clearly be the best and shit. But we can't, barring literal suicide strats. The moment we don't die but get a penalty we could have avoided by just being stronger outright is where the problems start. Our build lacks offense, but waiting until things go wrong to actually get it is not good. That applies to the Rank up as well.

And is that any different from the norm? We've seen exactly what risk taking gets us in the past and yet we turned down the relatively safe Hunt for the incredibly risky and dangerous Temple. Right after this vote you've got people talking about how we should have taken the Really Scenic Route to come here because our roll was good. If we're going to end up in these situations anyway, we should take something that can get us out in one piece.

Moreover, if we're in a situation where we really, truly need to use the Form of Rage, the rewards will likely be amazing. Consider how powerful Stranglethorn or Ruinous Valour are. It's certainly worth more than 1 Arete. While getting it would be absurdly, ridiculously dangerous as we are now, the Form of Rage could fix that issue entirely and put it within our reach.

The fact is that Progressors derive benefit from these sorts of death or glory situations, us moreso than most. For the relatively low price of 1 Arete, would you not want to grab a high pick option? Because that's effectively the tradeoff here.
The appropriate response to to the threads gambling addiction is not to encourage it. Especially with Apocryphal. Especially especially if we want to actually loot the Temple properly and not just run with our tail between our legs after we pop Rage. It's very good if we would die, but it does nothing in any other circumstance, most important of them being inflicted with maluses. Even right now we have avoided options that have a chance to outright kill us when it's presented forthrightly; no one voting for Fishing knew that we had an Apocryphal proc literally the next day.
 
Maybe vanguard now and triple cuts when we get to the temple is best then? The dream build is something like vanguard + cuts + fall, but that's way too much arete. Without fall though I'm worried about cuts exhausting us while we still need to fight.

I still think it's correct to take vanguard + fall + echoes now and hope for a high pick monster fight in the temple before any bosses so we can pick up valour.
 
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