A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- USA
I would rather have the offensive power now and end up with a pretty well rounded build. Then if we make it through the temple we can take the best choice without worrying about shoring up any weaknesses.
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
Vanguard is only a bad pick if the temple turns out to just be one super hard boss fight. If there's multiple fights with multiple spending points or non combat challenges the advantages of having another person to rely on and share the burden thus lessinging our rate of exhaustion is more than worth the temporary reduction in straight combat power.
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear x2
-[X] 2 Arete: Undying Echo
[X] Forebear's Blade - Form of Rage - 7 Arete
[X] Letrizia - Hollow Star
I just feel so angry, you know? Hopefully the Final Form isn't an Elf Lord.
-[X] 2 Arete: Undying Echo
[X] Forebear's Blade - Form of Rage - 7 Arete
[X] Letrizia - Hollow Star
I just feel so angry, you know? Hopefully the Final Form isn't an Elf Lord.
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[X] Evening Sky - Opalescence
[X] Forebear's Blade - Undying Vanguard - 7 Arete.
[X] Gisena - Sorcerous Advancement I
In light of our arete gains a build that focuses on surviving the early part of the dungeon to gain a bigger payoff inside.
One copy of echoes for the meaty stats it provides, opalescence for some extra tankiness and to set us up to explore more of the evening sky tree if there's some spicy blurbs ahead.
Undying Vanguard provides our stat buffs to our allies making them just as tanky as us and helps take the heat off us in the dungeon so we don't have to spam tiring moves and wear ourselves out before we get to the boss. Taking it now lets us bring an ally with us and sets us up to get cuts once we're inside. It also provides more combat stats with a built in echo and undying.
[X] Evening Sky - Opalescence
[X] Forebear's Blade - Undying Vanguard - 7 Arete.
[X] Gisena - Sorcerous Advancement I
In light of our arete gains a build that focuses on surviving the early part of the dungeon to gain a bigger payoff inside.
One copy of echoes for the meaty stats it provides, opalescence for some extra tankiness and to set us up to explore more of the evening sky tree if there's some spicy blurbs ahead.
Undying Vanguard provides our stat buffs to our allies making them just as tanky as us and helps take the heat off us in the dungeon so we don't have to spam tiring moves and wear ourselves out before we get to the boss. Taking it now lets us bring an ally with us and sets us up to get cuts once we're inside. It also provides more combat stats with a built in echo and undying.
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[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear X2
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear X3
[X] Forebear's Blade - A Thousand Cuts - 7 Arete (0 picks)
[X] Letrizia - Hollow Star
Switching to this, because it gives more Constitution, which helps with survivability.
It then of course has less damage than the Fall of Night build, but i can accept that since it helps save Arete for the goodies we find in the temple
(which we will hopefully survive)
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear X2
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear X3
[X] Forebear's Blade - A Thousand Cuts - 7 Arete (0 picks)
[X] Letrizia - Hollow Star
Switching to this, because it gives more Constitution, which helps with survivability.
It then of course has less damage than the Fall of Night build, but i can accept that since it helps save Arete for the goodies we find in the temple
(which we will hopefully survive)
- Location
- USA
I don't think any plan should be made based on us taking a specific 7 Arete pick next chance we get. The chances that the voters will vote it in have to be low, and there's no guarantee it will even be available.
It comes down to the way we've built Hunger. I think he has a chance to get past other challenges solo, without potent offense we need a lot of luck to beat a hard boss even with Gisena.
It comes down to the way we've built Hunger. I think he has a chance to get past other challenges solo, without potent offense we need a lot of luck to beat a hard boss even with Gisena.
Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Find and appropriate enemy -> use the Form -> choose a 4 pick option from whatever we kill -> become strong enough to not need it for the region and move on.
It's really quite simple, to be honest. 1 Arete is a pretty cheap price for such enormous gains in our Progression, certainly more than the random 2 cost options we've picked up. Considering how our major problem right now is insufficient scaling to fight opponents and we're going into a place with entirely unknown threats but immense rewards, it's a very strong option.
Moreover, if people were so gung ho about spending Arete on this, it would be more popular. Instead what we see is that even posters who consistently choose the risky options dislike it because of a reflexive dislike of seemingly "temporary" benefits, ignoring how the fucking fish brought us vastly lesser benefits for what would have been a similar price in Arete.
When given a choice in direction, people will select riskier options but when actually confronted with the consequences of their choices, they'll moderate. See also Among Fisherman, King -> Sleep In, Hunt for Healing -> Mire Wolf, and Temple -> Quickest Route.
Most importantly of all, it's cool and leads to the even cooler Final Form.
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- Location
- Omniverse #1345
And you think the thread can maintain discipline on that? Because I don't. I expect we'll end up burning picks wastefully and burning Arete at critical junctions.
That event chain doesn't actually support you: Fisherman was absurdly dangerous, but sleep in was largely people that voted against Fishing or didn't understand how nasty Exhausted was. Hunting for healing was explicitly noted by Rihaku to not be particularly dangerous, and the Mire Wolf was an 80/20... that we lost. Yet we still immediately picked the Temple. Quickest route was actually fairly safe, all things considered.
The issue isn't so much that the thread is going to jump between risky and anti-risk activities, but that Form of Rage gives incentive to intentionally pick fights with things stronger than us, but comes with a nasty downside both in Tired/Exhausted and in the arete expenditure.
I wouldn't be worried about the option at all but a lot of people with Omake power are on it and I'm a terrible writer at best.
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LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
Vanguard does raise our offense though? The plan with fall gets ++++ strength and +++ agility and powers up our sword beams. Plus we double our combat power by having two people instead of one. Gisena becomes just as tanky as we are which is pretty tanky after the extra con we pick as well, plus she gets combat relevant regen!
Just how much of a pushover do you think Gisena is? Her suicide Null Nova in a simple transaction was strong enough to let regular soldiers kill witch slayers which were 8 times as strong as us before this update! It also halved Seram's power permanently and he was much stronger than a witch slayer! Don't underestimate the power of Nullity!
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Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
So you concede that this would be a functioning and worthwhile loop?
Because it doesn't require discipline. If the enemy is strong enough for us to actually need our Form of Rage; it's going to be an epically dangerous monster. If it's an epically dangerous monster, it will offer 3 picks and 4 picks when we kill it. From there, the thread literally just needs to take the shinies offered, which is the one thing that it's capable of on a consistent basis.
I'd pay 1 Arete for What Rains May Come or Ruinous Valour. I'd pay more than that for Stranglethorn. Any of these options would massively boost our strength to the point that a previously impossible fight becomes entirely doable and then passe. When there's no more enemies that require the Form of Rage to defeat, we can just move on to a more dangerous area or begin saving Arete then.
Plus, this is an incredibly fast way to raise our Rank. Fight legendary monsters that should be vastly beyond you, trigger the Form and then enjoy that 0.25 boost to the godstat. 1 Arete for a quarter of a Rank is a shockingly cheap deal in our situation.
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Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the ForebearX2
-[X] 2 Arete: Undying Echo
[X] Forebear's Blade - Form of Rage - 7 Arete
[X] Letrizia - Hollow Star
Oh well. We can get magic at a different time, and if the omake creators want it, we should oblige them.
My concern, though, is actually using Form of Rage. The side effects are pretty fine, TBH, since if we can for example kill an Epic Enemy, then it's just -1 Pick (assuming that's 1 advancement). But what if Hunger is not motivated enough to go into Form of Rage? He seemed pretty depressed when fighting Seralize.
We might want Conclusion soon if we go this path.
-[X] 2 Arete: Undying Echo
[X] Forebear's Blade - Form of Rage - 7 Arete
[X] Letrizia - Hollow Star
Oh well. We can get magic at a different time, and if the omake creators want it, we should oblige them.
My concern, though, is actually using Form of Rage. The side effects are pretty fine, TBH, since if we can for example kill an Epic Enemy, then it's just -1 Pick (assuming that's 1 advancement). But what if Hunger is not motivated enough to go into Form of Rage? He seemed pretty depressed when fighting Seralize.
We might want Conclusion soon if we go this path.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
Of course. As Rihaku said that's exactly the way to abuse it. I'm not arguing it isn't a valid plan. I'm arguing you aren't going to be able to get the thread momentum you need to make use of it properly and we'll end up farther behind than we should be instead of ahead.
You know as well as I do it's like herding cats. And form of rage is an awesome shiny that does not provide anywhere near the benefits it seems to unless you use it very carefully. Which we are not likely to.
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Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
I think this isn't true actually. There was a substantial amount of people going for Tyrant Beast and Really Scenic Route, and then Temple of the False Moon. If we took out the 'Risk' part of False Moon, for example, we get something like Low Risk Extreme Reward. We'd be bonkers not to go for it then.
Powerlevelling ahoy.
Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
It doesn't need me to generate thread momentum at all, it just needs the thread to do what it's already been doing but slightly moreso. Our instincts are already tuned towards risk taking; Form of Rage just makes those risks both safer and more profitable when taken.
One of these days, we're going to end up going full YOLO and not chickening out at the last second. When we do, isn't it better to have a level of insurance?
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
...No. Form of rage would get us brutally killed in the Really Scenic Route. See, the first time it would work wonderfully! ...The second time we're tired to start with, because we don't have long enough to wait for that to fade, so we end up exhausted. And then we die.
Form of rage is not the insurance you think it is. It is good in its niche but the tired/exhausted drawback is exactly the kind of little thing the thread would ignore until it kills us. rather than protecting us against future bad decisions I think it is not only encouraging them, but it's going to lead to people not really considering the subtle but horrifically dangerous part of the drawback that is that it makes us tired and only lasts a single fight.
We will, invariably, vote for a marathon forgetting this.
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Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
The first time it would work out wonderfully, getting us a 4 pick option with which to escalate and slaughter through monsters (and thus not need to enter Form of Rage).
It really is perfect for our established behavior pattern.
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
It wouldn't be. It's only worthwhile if we run into enemies we could have only beaten with Form of Rage. That narrows it to enemies that are just under 3 times as strong as us and too durable to be taken down quickly in a fight. Anything less than that and other builds can do it better.
Any time we fight an enemy less powerful than that and have to trigger form of rage because we sacrificed immediate power in return for a last minute powerup is wasted time. If there are more than one or two enemies strong enough that we can't beat them with only our base stats when taking form of rage we'll be dead because being tired is bad but being exhausted is a death sentence.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
Unless we roll a proc for a second enemy to show immediately after it wears off.
its absolutely terrible for our established behavior pattern - it not only reinforces it, it *seems* to be perfect for it, so people don't catch on to the trap until after we're exhausted and facing down yet another enemy, this time without it to call on.
Form of Rage is a terrible thing to rely on, even for a shot period, because you can't use it more than twice every 2 days, and you spend the entire Exhausted period exceptionally vulnerable.
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LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
Form of Rage is only good if we assume that next update we're going to encounter something that would otherwise kill us no matter the other builds. Anything less than that and it's dead weight that could have been spent on things more consistently useful.
The more we have to make use of it the worse it is because every use increases the price without increasing the power. It's a trap essentially.
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DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- They
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear X2
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear X3
[X] Forebear's Blade - A Thousand Cuts - 7 Arete (0 picks)
[X] Letrizia - Hollow Star
Yeah. This is pretty amazing. Rihaku has been harping on us to take some goddamned echo option and thousand cuts gives us most of the offensive power we need, once we work up to 7 arete, we can purchase an defensive option.
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear X2
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear X3
[X] Forebear's Blade - A Thousand Cuts - 7 Arete (0 picks)
[X] Letrizia - Hollow Star
Yeah. This is pretty amazing. Rihaku has been harping on us to take some goddamned echo option and thousand cuts gives us most of the offensive power we need, once we work up to 7 arete, we can purchase an defensive option.
DarkSideBard
Flying, without moving on
[X] Forebear's Blade - A Thousand Cuts
[X] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor
-[X] Zweihander
[X] Letrizia - Hollow Star
Peh. Grog no need "Protection", "Intelligence", "Constitution". Grog hit things hard. Grog break things. All that matters in life.
[X] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor
-[X] Zweihander
[X] Letrizia - Hollow Star
Peh. Grog no need "Protection", "Intelligence", "Constitution". Grog hit things hard. Grog break things. All that matters in life.