Game, Set, [MAFIA]

ondine · May 29, 2020

Totadileplayz said:
What would you like me to talk about? To be fair i'm not particularly aggressive. I'm simply not seeing the point. If i don't see the point in something I try to ask questions and explain why I see something as pointless. If that's not enough what would you have me do? I've also talked about my views on who I consider particularly suspicious. Since my views haven't changed since then. I have seen no reason to talk about it more.

That being said would you like me to you my role right now?

Honestly I would rather hear from Tykan first. I'd love to hear who you plan to vote for now. And your thoughts on mesos claim and play. He's posted a fair bit lately. What do you think?

mesonoxian · May 29, 2020

I've got to go to bed, I am up way too late and I have to work tomorrow.

Catch y'all on the flip side!

Nictis · May 29, 2020

Forty-seven-ish hours remaining.

Totadileplayz · May 30, 2020

ondine said:
Honestly I would rather hear from Tykan first. I'd love to hear who you plan to vote for now. And your thoughts on mesos claim and play. He's posted a fair bit lately. What do you think?

Mesonoxian has literally outed his ability as having a 33% failure rate, yet still calls young pyromancer safe. This isn't danging evidence however. If Meso is a wolf then Young Pyromancer was likely chosen to help protect them. If they're not. I'd be hesistant in calling young pyromancer town simply due to the 33% failure rate, along with the lawyer. Allowing him to have multiple pieces of cover to hide behind.

Now it's actually possible this might be coming from a wolf's mentality or a cop's. The drawback seems rational for a cop to have. Making the role uncertain causes problems, and even if they were given scries of 3 different people it wouldn't really dictate anyone's alignment it would just give something better then a 50/50 guess. for all 3 of them. That being said I can easily imagine this being something a wolf would come up with for a drawback. That being said, he is willing to reveal his role. Which frankly he revealed cop which only one person can have. This means that either there isn't a cop and it was a safe bet, or there was a cop and it's Meso.

The Fact that there are 2 fools with differing drawbacks could be something worth looking into as well. Since I'd greatly prefer if the Qm didn't complicate things by making each of us have a personal drawback. I'd rather not have it be the case especially with the many other advantages scum has had in this game, and the fact that with keeping common drawbacks it is still of marginal use. Like for instance the second doctor would be pretty much protected if they had the same drawback as our residential one. However, if that's not the case this game becomes far more complicated. But it's possible it's either of those 2 answers. I can easily figure that out though once i have an additional piece of information. Which frankly only helps me and anyone that trusts me, but what have you. I can't prove it to everyone without risking me.

The problem this game is it doesn't feel like anyone's scummy. Heck, I'm probably the scummiest person here, because I'm trying to dismantle and criticize to try to figure out the rationale of pieces of information others provide.

Right now who am I planning to vote for? I'd probably go for tykan. I don't really remember anything of value from them, but they're one of only 3 people I'm currently up for voting for Young Pyromancer, Swarmingu, and Tykan. Technically it's possible I've hit the nail on the head and kept the only 3 scum on my critical-suspicions list. I doubt it however, but currently I'm leaning towards these 3 being scum. Not due to any fault on their part really no danging evidence. Simply a general elimination of others as more towny then them. No one is really mechanically-cleared town. Everyone has some doubt to them of course, but they tend to be far less suspicious to me currently then those 3.

Early this day Scia lost a lot of the gut-read simply from keeping up with the vote management system. If they were scum i doubt anyone would try to keep it up after suspicion was thrown at it. However that's a light elimination for me, and i'd still be up for voting for them if it rolled that way.

Meso has become more spoken and has claimed a pivotal role of the cop, as such I don't want to vote for him.

Ondine and Shadell. If these 2 are town a long-con has been played, this practically eliminates them from consideration. Even the most critical of people can only be distrustful for so long. The only time I'd vote for them is if danging evidence has just been released for them being scum which I find doubtful.

I've played with Cyri before, if he's scum he didn't play like how he did the one game i did play with him. Causing me to be less distrustful of him and that doubt crosses over to Zealix. Not much but that's really all i've got for right now. I'm not saying he's not a wolf, just simply saying that's he didn't play like he did about a year ago now. This is not danging evidence one way or another, but it's all i've got, and if there was more pressing evidence for him to be scum I'd likely vote for them.

Then there's the eliminated of lost, interstellar, and Qtesseract.

I know i'm town.

leaving Pyro, Swarm and Tykan for my suspicions.

Is this a good way to analyze people? Certainly not. But it's how i'm doing it for the first time as town. That being said there are far more factors playing into this. So, I could explain someone in more detail, but frankly it's still far more instinctual then i'd like personally.

ondine · May 30, 2020

Seems like a fine way to analyze things.

Your list is part of my list anyway. I don't think Z is in any way cleared though. Meso I'm waffling on.

Shadell · May 30, 2020

Scum can fake claim with impunity. Claiming in mass won't save us.

Shadell · May 30, 2020

Like, the rules here not only provide scum cover, but specifically give scum cover that allows them to visit whomever and know exactly what they can claim about it. Mass claiming, and voting someone for pointing out how awful this is for town, is terrible.

Young Pyromancer · May 30, 2020

Looking back on the claiming, I agree it was a bad idea. If Onedine wasn't the one who really kicked things off, I would be voting for whoever it was. That being said, Meso's still weird, as he did kinda plant the idea in our minds that claiming was a good idea.
Totodile, though, claimed we had two fools with two different drawbacks. I did not see another fool claim, so I'm suspicious of them being mafia. I deliberately screwed with the exact wording of the ability I have, and if they're mafia and know all the role drawbacks, that might be why. As such, I'm voting on
[X] vote Totodileplayz
for now. Might change it if I hear an actually good reason to vote for someone besides 'everyone seems innocent, I'll just vote for someone I have a gut read on' because that's equally likely to be just some villager being paranoid/having a different playstyle than you.

Young Pyromancer · May 30, 2020

EBWOP, if the mafia don't know all the role drawbacks at first, it could be they scanned a fool and got their sheet, and therefore know the drawback and made a slip that way.

Totadileplayz · May 30, 2020

Swarmingu said:
We're doing a roleclaim now? I'm a fool. We're not allowed to say our cards, although saying I can visit people is good enough I think.

I know you guys were thinking that killing scum right now is more important but I still think we are just simplifying their own jobs. I doubt that they already peeked at all of us within these 2 nights.

You were the first. However, I was a bit hasty, and thought this second bit where they said that fools couldn't say their cards.

Young Pyromancer · May 30, 2020

Okay, seems I missed a roleclaim. Still slightly suspicious for the reasons I stated earlier, and I'll keep my vote on you to generate discussion.

Young Pyromancer · May 30, 2020

Also suspicious of how you've cleared Zycan for basically no reason. Possible team? Supporting them because you know they'll flip village and think they're gonna get lynched?

Totadileplayz · May 30, 2020

Young Pyromancer said:
Also suspicious of how you've cleared Zycan for basically no reason. Possible team? Supporting them because you know they'll flip village and think they're gonna get lynched?

Have a look at this game. The reason Ondine pushed for a mass-claim in the first place was because there was no real information to go on. I wanted to narrow down the roles down to 3 guesses. For a possible scum team. When the problem we've had during town is that lack of information.

However, the major problem I see with them being scum, is because Zealix is actually saying that he saw ondine as scummy. While not a smart play regardless of who you are. Scum partners would have had the chance to dissuade them from continuing on about that topic. However, he's mentioned that multiple times. Which If pressed I could actually provide. The very fact that he calls Cyricubed scummy as the player who's playing them. Causes me to doubt they're actually scum. If they had any conversation with the other scum whatsoever he'd have stopped mentioning it instead of increasing the doubts which that type of talk provided to them.

That being said this is anecdotal evidence. It's not strong, but I can't really provide a strong defense for a majority of players. It's not so much of a they're town. It's a I have dis-tendency to think of them as scum pushing me towards them. Whether that being actual evidence or that a player i think is more scummy is proved to be town.

This is why I said even in that analysis it's not a town-read per say, but rather even my own analysis of them is weak. Where i flat out state.

I've played with Cyri before, if he's scum he didn't play like how he did the one game i did play with him. Causing me to be less distrustful of him and that doubt crosses over to Zealix. Not much but that's really all i've got for right now.

This is evidence. I don't know Cyri as much as more veteran players of the game, but the one that I did play. Made me doubt that he would do that as scum. That's all.

Young Pyromancer said:
Okay, seems I missed a roleclaim. Still slightly suspicious for the reasons I stated earlier, and I'll keep my vote on you to generate discussion.

Frankly. What's stopping me from talking more isn't pressure, which even with 2 votes for me. I don't really feel, it's simply the lack of ideas to actually discuss. I'd love to hear some actual discussion topics. But, this isn't really going to do anything for me. However, Frankly if i was scum. The thing i'd do would be to claim my role as early as possible and not let people think about it as I tried to support the mass-claim's push. This is why anyone that did actually role-claim didn't get any evidence for or against them in my view. Town and scum alike could have easily done it. The only reason why I didn't is because I doubted it would actually prove useful to town, thus I tried to push for actual discussion on whether or not it was a good idea first.

But, Honestly. I'm heading to bed. I'm not too concerned about a train heading my way. If push comes to shove, we can at least find out some useful information this way. If there isn't a hammer at least. Though it would be infinitely preferable if we actually focused on scum.

Shadell · May 30, 2020

Young Pyromancer said:
Totodile, though, claimed we had two fools with two different drawbacks. I did not see another fool claim, so I'm suspicious of them being mafia. I deliberately screwed with the exact wording of the ability I have, and if they're mafia and know all the role drawbacks, that might be why. As such, I'm voting on

It's in the rules that only you know your rule drawbacks. Totodile is, frankly, the only one who comes out of this mass claim thing looking at all towny. Like, Ondine is all but mechanically confirmed to me, and suspecting

Nictis said:
This game will be a semi-open game, starting on Day 1 all potential roles will be revealed to the thread, as well as the list of the Mafia's factional abilities. Each role and ability will have some sort of hidden drawback or limitation that will only be known to the player that receives the role.

Like, the rules provide a perfectly safe existing cover for every scum member. In principle, the rules are designed specifically to do this and this has been one of the most obvious terrible disadvantages for town. Like, we got jacked up on powers, but all of them are weakened dramatically, have built in mechanical counters, and/or scum has the tools to play around them perfectly. Meanwhile, we have no real means to know what scum's disadvantages are or build plans around them, and the first two votes went terrible directions. The inactivity vote was an awful idea for much the same reason, particularly as QT had literally zero responses in the thread since the initial one and might just genuinely have had IRL issues, but also because it gave us literally nothing to build off of.

Voting Devil was kinda a shitty thing to do, in that while I suspected LDJ openly, this was their first game in ages and this was a pretty visibly weak read. Voting QT who, for all we know, had actual serious stuff to take care of (times being as they are that's actually pretty possible) wasn't good either, for all they'd failed to live up to the more active mandate.

This is, ultimately, a game where scum benefits intensely from town trying to play around mechanical solves by very obvious design, but also a game where town gets punished if anyone tries to play around mechanics, while also being a very mechanical heavy set-up.

So, let's play the social angle. It's transparently something the rules force us toward in making a lot of powers next to entirely useless or actively harmful in isolation.

mesonoxian said:
@QTesseract you have one post for this entire day, saying you know you look suspicious but will try to post more today. You have the fewest posts of any player but Zaealix (who just subbed in). You are also a vet.

Tykan said:
Pressure for now is a good idea.

This is the argument Meso and Tykan both make in going after QT. In general, I think it's a good reason to pile votes on QT, but not a good reason to ultimately kill QT, and both players are experienced enough that, seeing complete inactivity, should have swapped to something actually productive.

Instead, both left the thread entirely for the remainder of the Day. So, what happened there? I've seen you both play before, and, like IRL obviously happens (and I'd trust players not to fabricate actual IRL reasons for inactivity when none exist, because inviting skepticism and uncharitable readings toward of "I had an actual IRL issues" via abusing the excuse is actually harmful to the ability to play the game) but jumping out with 10 hours left on the vote and then never doing anything when a lot of people start sheeping on?

This ain't a great look.

Tykan · May 30, 2020

Shadell said:
This is the argument Meso and Tykan both make in going after QT. In general, I think it's a good reason to pile votes on QT, but not a good reason to ultimately kill QT, and both players are experienced enough that, seeing complete inactivity, should have swapped to something actually productive.

Instead, both left the thread entirely for the remainder of the Day. So, what happened there? I've seen you both play before, and, like IRL obviously happens (and I'd trust players not to fabricate actual IRL reasons for inactivity when none exist, because inviting skepticism and uncharitable readings toward of "I had an actual IRL issues" via abusing the excuse is actually harmful to the ability to play the game) but jumping out with 10 hours left on the vote and then never doing anything when a lot of people start sheeping on?

This ain't a great look.

Let's start with this one.
When I got on that particular vote, we had around 10 hours left. I had my suspicions D1 and QTess did nothing D2 to clear them. So I went for my suspicions AND the pressure vote. Let's see what happens next. In the next 7 hours we get a total of 7 posts, one of them by me. Did anything happen in that time to alleviate my suspicions? No.
Did I expect for QTess to come up with an explanation, anything? Yes, but he didn't.
We were at a point where there is a single wagon with two votes and 3 1-vote wagons. So anything can change. Especially with a good post from a player.

Nictis said:
Three hours and forty-three minutes remaining.

Here's another point in my case. At least from this point onward, I wasn't on anymore. There's a stupid little thing called timezones and I'm on the far end this game. I was sleeping.
So here's what I did. I put my trust in the players to not push a bad vote on someone IF he has an explanation for his behaviour.

Now trying to frame Meso and me for that is interesting. I mean, you did nothing in that timeframe either. You even did a pressure vote D2 as well.

Was it a good push (my end)? Not that much. But like almost anyone else, I was playing a bit low effort for the last two days. So using that to throw shade isn't a good look either.

Tykan · May 30, 2020

Let's see. This is either going to be a very long post or several.

You know, if you have to hammer an argument again and again, that doesn't increase the likelihood of it being true. Rather pseudo-quoting GoT "If you have to constantly repeat to everybody, you are the king, you aren't the king."

ondine said:
Shadell and I are mech cleared and until I hear a CC I'm not discussing it again.

ondine said:
I'm essentially mechanically cleared. So you can stop worrying about me at least. And Shadell as well. So I would try to look in other places.

ondine said:
What are you actually saying here? Are you suspecting Shadell and I who have been mech cleared? You didn't actually have any.. like actual solving here. You just listed events. It's something you see scum doing sometimes because they can't figure out how to "solve" when they know the answer already.

ondine said:
I will. But I'm going to do it last because I'm already cleared and I might catch someone in a lie.

We seem to have very different opinions on what IS a mechanical clear. A mech clear is a GM message for a mayor. A GM message for a gladiator. A flip when you die in most games. A situation where there isn't a single other outcome possible like in the Ravens game.
It's not one person claiming to have been attacked and healed. It's not someone claiming to be the doc who healed said person.
It might look better in a normal game but in this game with drawbacks and an even more informed Scum, that's nothing at all.
We have IH tracking Shadell to you but there are other possible explanations than a doc. I mean there couldn't be a doc at all in play. Scum would know that.

Let's make this clear. I don't believe you. I'm sure enough that you and Shadell are scum trying to play us hard since D2.

Totadileplayz said:
If these 2 are town a long-con has been played, this practically eliminates them from consideration. Even the most critical of people can only be distrustful for so long.

What about this is exactly a long-con? They got a whole night (N1) to come up with a plan. They knew at least one Watcher is out, maybe they knew there wasn't another in play. Said Watcher even said (several times) that his drawback was crippling. That might have been a bluff or not but still.

There's a chance no one could test their story. Even if there was another Watcher, there were 11 possible targets. Not that high a risk for a play, especially for the outcome. I mean getting one player town cleared with the option for another one clearing themself later on. Which got forced a bit early by Hobo.

So my version of N1 goes with Shadell laywering Ondine for the extra reassurance should a cop check her. Someone's roleblocking Meso and another one's dousing someone. Probably a newb or a quieter (pseudo-)vet.

But why should they leave aside a sure kill for a fancy play?
As Pyro said it last, all comes back to the drawback. What's the drawback for a NK?

- The NK is openly announced.
Didn't happen and gamebreaking

- The potential target gets informed who attacked him/her.
Didn't happen unless Ondine is covering something up.

- Can only kill every odd night.
- Can't be used in two consecutive nights.
- Scum has to alternate between kill and arson
Both rejected by Ondine's claim

- Can only be used a couple of times.
Possible but strange

- Can only used on a number of random targets (generated each night)
Feels like it takes too much agenda from scum.

- Can only kill every even night.
That's my favourite explanation for now. It fits the situation and isn't contradicted by the proveable data.

So under the off-chance that I'm wrong and they are telling the truth, I'll go with

[X] Vote Ondine

I'd rather lose the doc/fool/bodyguard that you're left to claim than the proven doc in the unlikely worst case scenario.

Oh yeah, claiming... That's a hard one. Shall I claim doc, fool or bodyguard... None of that can be proven now since they all visit someone. I think I'm going with fool.
Which proves nothing and isn't helping anyone right now.

Stay tuned for a bit more argumentation/quoting and less mind games in the next post. But I've to take a break first for a while.

Young Pyromancer · May 30, 2020

[X] Vote Nictis
Gah, I'm not sure what to do here. I tried being more aggressive, but Totodile had decent reasoning, so I'm having trouble voting for them. Tykan also has good reasoning, but I'm not sure about Onedine. Meso is sus, as I don't think they've really committed this whole game, but I can't figure out why they'd choose me for their 'read', instead of someone with a more powerful role they scanned earlier. And the NK has other possible drawbacks that weren't mentioned, like it being only able to be carried out by a random person, or two people having to carry it out. Swarmie and Scia are the other options, but I have other reasons to trust them here, or at least distrust them less. Still would like more info on them though.
I want to know what @Scia and @Swarmingu think.

Shadell · May 30, 2020

[x] vote Tykan

Not liking either the defense that admits the actions were bad, then randomly throws out suspicion for questioning why they were done, the sudden swap from earlier being in rough agreement with suspecting Tykan and Meso to treating following up on that as suspicious or the sudden swap to a content less attack on Ondine as soon as pressure shifts to Tykan.

Like, Tykan's argument for voting Ondine is that Ondine seems very cleared but Tykan can construct particular mechanics where the behavior we've seen would make sense, except, this is thrown out with zero reason to actually buy the theory.

Like, Ondine being scum and this being some sort of big brain play requires us having somehow known IH followed us, or otherwise setting up a stately to tie ourselves together extremely explicitly, which would be terrible play. Like, the unprovoked Ondine claim on being attacked would be a lot harder than just claiming an info role that's not in play. It collapses entirely should scum kill tonight

Also, earlier Tykan gave us:

Tykan said:
So, I'm mostly going with Shadell's list of suspects for today but I'd add Zaealix to the list.

My list was Tykan and Meso, so Tykan should have been 50/50 going in, but did relatively little to play towniness or prove their innocence (leading to everyone else hitting one of the two suspects) or interrogate the two suspects they had, and then flipped hard on pretty thin reasoning as soon as pressure came back to them.

Town should hunt, Tykan voices targets, but never pressed them, then came at me for pressing someone Tykan earlier considered a reasonable set of targets. That reads a lot like scum playing defense to me.

Tykan · May 30, 2020

Shadell said:
Like, Tykan's argument for voting Ondine is that Ondine seems very cleared but Tykan can construct particular mechanics where the behavior we've seen would make sense, except, this is thrown out with zero reason to actually buy the theory.

Like, Ondine being scum and this being some sort of big brain play requires us having somehow known IH followed us, or otherwise setting up a stately to tie ourselves together extremely explicitly, which would be terrible play. Like, the unprovoked Ondine claim on being attacked would be a lot harder than just claiming an info role that's not in play. It collapses entirely should scum kill tonight

How is she cleared except by her and your own accounts?
It didn't require you to know that IH followed you. It's an easy clear for Ondine claiming to have been attacked N1. With an easy doc claim for you if you should need it later on.
The way it went down, you two are getting town read by lots of people.

Note: That particular scenario only fails if the kill does match the N2 kill and doesn't sound like burning someone.

Shadell said:
Also, earlier Tykan gave us:

My list was Tykan and Meso, so Tykan should have been 50/50 going in, but did relatively little to play towniness or prove their innocence (leading to everyone else hitting one of the two suspects) or interrogate the two suspects they had, and then flipped hard on pretty thin reasoning as soon as pressure came back to them.

Town should hunt, Tykan voices targets, but never pressed them, then came at me for pressing someone Tykan earlier considered a reasonable set of targets. That reads a lot like scum playing defense to me.

It's true, I started D3 with the earlier small suspicion about you two. But I went with "most people look at them as town so maybe you should trust them so as well" and Pseudo-Occam's Razor, as in "assuming everyone speaks the truth has the least assumptions."
Then Ondine (and others) continued to hammer the "mech clear" and I kept spiralling to the NK drawback. Which brought me back to you guys.

And about hunting. You have played how many games with me now? About 5? Show me one where I'm really hunting scum consistently with full effort. I'm investing effort when I either have hard evidence (Scarlet Finale Last day) or am dead sure (Aethereal Concordat against Meso prior to being vigged). Most of the time I'm not a very active scum hunter.
So that's suddenly a scum tell for me? Damn, I must have read my role pms wrong in all but one game.

As you wish, I'm going for the arguments and the quotes now. Will take a while.

mesonoxian · May 30, 2020

Shadell said:
It's in the rules that only you know your rule drawbacks. Totodile is, frankly, the only one who comes out of this mass claim thing looking at all towny. Like, Ondine is all but mechanically confirmed to me, and suspecting

Like, the rules provide a perfectly safe existing cover for every scum member. In principle, the rules are designed specifically to do this and this has been one of the most obvious terrible disadvantages for town. Like, we got jacked up on powers, but all of them are weakened dramatically, have built in mechanical counters, and/or scum has the tools to play around them perfectly. Meanwhile, we have no real means to know what scum's disadvantages are or build plans around them, and the first two votes went terrible directions. The inactivity vote was an awful idea for much the same reason, particularly as QT had literally zero responses in the thread since the initial one and might just genuinely have had IRL issues, but also because it gave us literally nothing to build off of.

Voting Devil was kinda a shitty thing to do, in that while I suspected LDJ openly, this was their first game in ages and this was a pretty visibly weak read. Voting QT who, for all we know, had actual serious stuff to take care of (times being as they are that's actually pretty possible) wasn't good either, for all they'd failed to live up to the more active mandate.

This is, ultimately, a game where scum benefits intensely from town trying to play around mechanical solves by very obvious design, but also a game where town gets punished if anyone tries to play around mechanics, while also being a very mechanical heavy set-up.

So, let's play the social angle. It's transparently something the rules force us toward in making a lot of powers next to entirely useless or actively harmful in isolation.

This is the argument Meso and Tykan both make in going after QT. In general, I think it's a good reason to pile votes on QT, but not a good reason to ultimately kill QT, and both players are experienced enough that, seeing complete inactivity, should have swapped to something actually productive.

Instead, both left the thread entirely for the remainder of the Day. So, what happened there? I've seen you both play before, and, like IRL obviously happens (and I'd trust players not to fabricate actual IRL reasons for inactivity when none exist, because inviting skepticism and uncharitable readings toward of "I had an actual IRL issues" via abusing the excuse is actually harmful to the ability to play the game) but jumping out with 10 hours left on the vote and then never doing anything when a lot of people start sheeping on?

This ain't a great look.

I disagree. Town can't let people get away with lurking. If we do, the scum can lay low and the game collapses. If someone isn't playing, a kill vote is appropriate.

As for leaving the thread, real life comes first.

Tykan said:
Let's see. This is either going to be a very long post or several.

You know, if you have to hammer an argument again and again, that doesn't increase the likelihood of it being true. Rather pseudo-quoting GoT "If you have to constantly repeat to everybody, you are the king, you aren't the king."

We seem to have very different opinions on what IS a mechanical clear. A mech clear is a GM message for a mayor. A GM message for a gladiator. A flip when you die in most games. A situation where there isn't a single other outcome possible like in the Ravens game.
It's not one person claiming to have been attacked and healed. It's not someone claiming to be the doc who healed said person.
It might look better in a normal game but in this game with drawbacks and an even more informed Scum, that's nothing at all.
We have IH tracking Shadell to you but there are other possible explanations than a doc. I mean there couldn't be a doc at all in play. Scum would know that.

Let's make this clear. I don't believe you. I'm sure enough that you and Shadell are scum trying to play us hard since D2.

What about this is exactly a long-con? They got a whole night (N1) to come up with a plan. They knew at least one Watcher is out, maybe they knew there wasn't another in play. Said Watcher even said (several times) that his drawback was crippling. That might have been a bluff or not but still.

There's a chance no one could test their story. Even if there was another Watcher, there were 11 possible targets. Not that high a risk for a play, especially for the outcome. I mean getting one player town cleared with the option for another one clearing themself later on. Which got forced a bit early by Hobo.

So my version of N1 goes with Shadell laywering Ondine for the extra reassurance should a cop check her. Someone's roleblocking Meso and another one's dousing someone. Probably a newb or a quieter (pseudo-)vet.

But why should they leave aside a sure kill for a fancy play?
As Pyro said it last, all comes back to the drawback. What's the drawback for a NK?

- The NK is openly announced.
Didn't happen and gamebreaking

- The potential target gets informed who attacked him/her.
Didn't happen unless Ondine is covering something up.

- Can only kill every odd night.
- Can't be used in two consecutive nights.
- Scum has to alternate between kill and arson
Both rejected by Ondine's claim

- Can only be used a couple of times.
Possible but strange

- Can only used on a number of random targets (generated each night)
Feels like it takes too much agenda from scum.

- Can only kill every even night.
That's my favourite explanation for now. It fits the situation and isn't contradicted by the proveable data.

So under the off-chance that I'm wrong and they are telling the truth, I'll go with

[X] Vote Ondine

I'd rather lose the doc/fool/bodyguard that you're left to claim than the proven doc in the unlikely worst case scenario.

Oh yeah, claiming... That's a hard one. Shall I claim doc, fool or bodyguard... None of that can be proven now since they all visit someone. I think I'm going with fool.
Which proves nothing and isn't helping anyone right now.

Stay tuned for a bit more argumentation/quoting and less mind games in the next post. But I've to take a break first for a while.

I considered the same possibility, but it is hard to see how they could pull this off without IH's cooperation.

Ondine mentioned being attacked and healed before IH reported Shadell visiting ondine. It is possible the scum set this up just in case ondine was watched/Shadell was tracked, but it seems unlikely. It is possible, though. I hadn't considered that the Lawyer ability would count as a visit. If that's the case, it calls ondine's clearance into question as well.

It still requires them being lucky and skilled, but they are both very good players do if the opportunity came up I think they would see and seize it.

It's also slimly possible that Shadell is a town doc and ondine is scum. Ondine lied about the doc/kill attempt and got very, very lucky they were actually being protected, but that seems improbable enough to ignore.

Thinking about night actions: claimed N1 actions:

I attempted and failed to visit IH due to a role locker.

A roleblocker must have visited me.

IH tracked Shadell

Shadell visited ondine

Ondine claims a visit from a doc and a scum attacker.

Presumably @Scia watched someone.

Night 2 action claims:

Unknown scum kills IH

Shadell claims a roleblocker visited them and that they failed in an attempt to visit Tykan.

I visited Young Pyromancer

Scia watched someone and saw a visitor

Let me know if I missed anything.

About the decision to claim. I feel like it made sense in my case. With roleblockers and my drawback, I am not very useful, and I am a likely scum target, being relatively experienced and having a high activity level. And they have a rolecop, do I may already be identified. Narrowing down to real scum is more important than role protection at this point.

mesonoxian · May 30, 2020

Sorry I am typing in little bits between work on various shaky public wifi connections, so I know that post's a mess.

Tykan · May 30, 2020

mesonoxian said:
It's also slimly possible that Shadell is a town doc and ondine is scum. Ondine lied about the doc/kill attempt and got very, very lucky they were actually being protected, but that seems improbable enough to ignore.

Impossible. I asked Shadell and she said that she got a GM confirmation for healing her target.

So, in case you couldn't use your kill N1, what do you do? Right, you fake a kill and a lucky doc for town cred.
As stated, I think IH only sped up the claim.

I think you've got all Night action claims.

mesonoxian · May 30, 2020

Oh @Shadell what was the flavor of your roleblock?

(My phone tried to autocompleye that to "flavor of love". What the hell, phone?)

Totadileplayz · May 30, 2020

Okay Yeah. Starting to Think Tykan and Meso are both scum.

Tykan said:
Oh yeah, claiming... That's a hard one. Shall I claim doc, fool or bodyguard... None of that can be proven now since they all visit someone. I think I'm going with fool.
Which proves nothing and isn't helping anyone right now.

But seriously simply how Tykan did his claim. Makes me think, yeah I should definitely vote for him.

[X]Vote Tykan

Young Pyromancer · May 30, 2020

@Tykan, what's the wording for your fool role?

Game, Set, [MAFIA]

Do people like pointless polls with their mafia?

Yes.

No.

I didn't answer this.

Wynaut?

Pretty Princess of the Shadow Cabal

Staying noided

Best Sidekick

Pretty Princess of the Shadow Cabal

Staying noided

Staying noided

Staying noided