A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
Inb4 we think we're the baddest dude alive, and get proven wrong.
The future advancement options are fascinating. Have we ever been so spoiled before?
I'd quite like to pursue hunger's healing and iron curtain. Makes me more confident in my no arete vote for mitigation, as well!
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
My fear is that we are greatly overestimating our likelihood of running into things that gives A Hunger Sated.
Inserted tally
DarkSideBard
Flying, without moving on
Wow, the high-tier advancement options are really good. 25 Arete for something definitively legendary like Pillars of Creation is a good barometer for how overwhelming we are as a character. Like, ignoring our difficulty with saving Arete as a habitual/logistical one, think about how long, in-universe, it takes Hunger to save large chunks of True Excellence! He could get one of these legendaries in a year, tops, without going too far out of his way at all.
How are others supposed to compete with this level of rise-and-grind power condensation?
Of course the fundamental difficulty here is that we aren't good at saving, and more tend towards locally optimizing immediate smaller-scale Special Resource expenditures. As good as some of these top-tiers are, I feel like we'd still tend towards picking 3 7-options and 2 2-options with the same dosh. If it's the same amount of expenditure in smaller chunks, we're getting small chunks of power, but maybe that's better for optimizing utility? Especially since it gradates our power over time, instead of saving it for one large jump?
The 25 Arete options are just good enough that its not easy to tell how much better they are than an equivalent amount of optimized spending over the "saving" period would be, which seems like a sign that they're actually pretty balanced options.
How are others supposed to compete with this level of rise-and-grind power condensation?
Of course the fundamental difficulty here is that we aren't good at saving, and more tend towards locally optimizing immediate smaller-scale Special Resource expenditures. As good as some of these top-tiers are, I feel like we'd still tend towards picking 3 7-options and 2 2-options with the same dosh. If it's the same amount of expenditure in smaller chunks, we're getting small chunks of power, but maybe that's better for optimizing utility? Especially since it gradates our power over time, instead of saving it for one large jump?
The 25 Arete options are just good enough that its not easy to tell how much better they are than an equivalent amount of optimized spending over the "saving" period would be, which seems like a sign that they're actually pretty balanced options.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
I think spending the effort to look for those procs is worthwhile to not, you know, inflict planet-scale genocides.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
I'm in agreement. I just worry about how viable it is.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Well.. the Apocryphal Curse is here to help! In seriousness, it will probably be viable until we start out-scaling basically everything in this verse.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Saw some decent analysis about Huntress' Moon so...
[X] Fierce Vigor
[X] Spend No Arete (top 2 picks)
[X] Decimator - Huntress' Moon: Impairs all conventional mitigation attempts by 40%, but dramatically increases the number and availability of targets for A Hunger, Sated. Targets will always be at least minimally challenging or in some way exceptional.
[X] Apocryphal Curse - Direct Mitigation: Reduces the difficulty of encounters by roughly 10%.
[X] +0.5 Arete
[X] Fierce Vigor
[X] Spend No Arete (top 2 picks)
[X] Decimator - Huntress' Moon: Impairs all conventional mitigation attempts by 40%, but dramatically increases the number and availability of targets for A Hunger, Sated. Targets will always be at least minimally challenging or in some way exceptional.
[X] Apocryphal Curse - Direct Mitigation: Reduces the difficulty of encounters by roughly 10%.
[X] +0.5 Arete
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The stars are right, time for a Monty Python reference: "You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!" Friend, with the Doom of the Tyrant we can hardly expect otherwise. At least we don't have the Brand of the Wretched, if a watery tart throws a sword at Seram the odds are good it's an attempt on his life. Dodging Witch-Slayer weapons thrown at hundreds of miles per hour was bad enough, thanks.
Come on, at least say 'much like you do', you can't just turn down a straight line! It might be wiser to, though, encouraging her is dangerous even if indifference only provokes escalation. Anyway, the King Fish's exterior looks like someone nailed it with the Overwhelm Form and botched a transformation into something Baroque? It has a monarch's trappings and domain, this lake's huge. I wonder how the ecological dominoes will fall in its absence?
I was wondering about this, glad to see the attention to detail pay off.
Gisena's an exasperating person to interact with, but Microwave's depiction of her getting canonized is a nice touch.
Oh no you don't, eye color paranoia can stay in the MfD thread where it belongs! No channeling Mari, Hunger's heart is broken enough as-is.
Winning move, not to play, etc.
Interesting, Mary-Elizabeth did something similar with her eyes while examining Seram's Amplitude. Is this sort of sensory interface common to all metamagic Graces? Zang would approve; the optic nerve's the highest-bandwidth conduit between brain and world, after all! Speaking of the Enchantress, she got a great deal. 10% of Game of the Year's potential in exchange for a day's work? That's highway robbery, or would be if she wasn't the sole provider of that service.
How much power had she stockpiled over the course of her long life? Seram's would've been much easier with an impartial arbiter between Sorceress factions. The mind of a child may be truly wonderful (according to Yoda, anyway), but why go so far with age reversion? Was it just a way of recusing herself from politics to prioritize her experiments?
Morbid curiosity compels me to speculate about the fate of the AU Manifest Realm, what happened to the counterparts of the people we knew. Was the Crimson cut down by her own obsession with worthy opponents, as she was canonically? That's a lesson we'd do well to heed. Porcelain probably died harder than Bruce Willis. Jeanne... would've fallen in defense of Atraelon, giving everything she had only for that not to be enough. Not a fun thought. But with the orcs united and humanity splintered by Elvish machinations there's only one outcome, as the Oracle predicted.
She only has one dress, though, how's she supposed to spare another for the fish?!
At least empirical self-assessment means she's aware of her 'exceptional' cooking skills. Can't help but note she went from accepting defeat to dragging us off to assist with the fish in a short exchange. I'll appreciate that talent for manipulation more when it's not wielded against us. But still, worst nightmare? Hunger's psyche has far more horrifying material to draw on.
Hey, any Tyrant worth their salt has to be aware of - if not necessarily concerned with - the state of their subjects. Can't afford to drop our guard; Hunger sleeps, but the Apocryphal Curse doesn't.
Hunger does a lot of projection! Not that it's a bad thing, the Forebear's Blade is a godsend and I'm glad we took it.
The holistic enhancement Sorceresses get is bullshit, not that we have room to throw stones in that glass house. Gisena was smart to begin with (25 Wits to Seram's initial 21), but the +37 transformation bonus sure helps. His LOCKED I was a mind-boggling 27, but we still don't know what either of the LOCKED stats does, beyond somehow measuring affinity for magic.
This reminds me of one of those anime scenes: the characters enter a restaurant and you just know the animators started JoJo posing and talking about activated trap cards before going full sakuga. Forget the murder mystery or overlord or whatever, you're gonna spend a solid thirty seconds looking at that bowl of ramen or staring deep into a bento box, and you're going to like it. It works there and it worked here; my stomach started doing its best motorcycle engine impression.
The Duchess having a palace isn't a surprise, exactly, but it raises my estimate of her importance.
Don't call it a grave, it's the future you chose. All you can do now is earn the name you've committed to, make it feared and respected across the Human Sphere. Lord Hunger's the sort of title that's either ridiculous or terrifying.
I was all set to comment on how his proficiency's a neat perk given the ring's other effects, making him better able to appreciate better meals. But... ouch. That feeling when you step on a mental landmine, partially buried by the accumulation of time and memories but still deadly? Not fun. There's no overt angst, but you can literally read between the lines here.
We said Gisena couldn't keep her, but it doesn't seem that instruction was heeded. At least we know Letrizia's surname now. I wonder how well remembered the Amarlt are in the present day, if there are any surviving branches. I'm expecting to be confronted with Ceathlynn at some point, whereupon we'll bitterly regret not choosing her. Some Lesser Remittances not being a conscious choice is interesting. Hunger didn't know we picked Gisena, but Twice-Great's blurb listed paying forward the Accursed's gift as a perk, implying the opposite for Ceathlynn. Does he know of her or Prolessarch's existence?
Can't forget the loot! The pearl seems valuable, perhaps the King Fish pulled a Carcharoth? Ate a Silmaril or other power source of sufficient magnitude and harnessed it accidentally, just by being hardy enough to survive. The message in the bottle's also curious. Could be a plot hook, the Apocryphal Curse's latest attempt at sucker-punching us, or both. The crown-scale sounds like a crafting ingredient to me; it represented the Fish's dominion over its environs, so maybe Hunger can get another charisma boost out of it, another step toward memetic hazard status. I won't be content until Hunger's ability to ad lib life-altering speeches is on Hector's level!
Someone else with the ring might succumb to sloth; when every moment abed's a decadently lazy Sunday morning, 'five more minutes' becomes seductive! Nameless wearing this ring of power would be a catastrophe. But Hunger's more committed than that, so we don't have to worry about will-management or training burnout. Not that we can train productively at the moment, but that limitation can't be harder to circumvent than a Curse. In the eons to come, I have faith that Hunger'll... find a way.
This is the difference in characterization between a hero who elected the hard, high road of Progression and a version who went Combat and tapped out. I'd contend Hunger did deserve salvation, after spending so heavily of himself for the good of others, but the conviction and simple gratitude are heartwarming. Hunger's compelling, the furthest thing from a caricature.
Hey, we didn't get in the giant robot, that's what counts as slacking off by Hunger's standards.
Hunger's subterranean expectations of nobles are always amusing. Watching him collide with civilization will be... entertaining? I'd be looking forward to it if not for the risks, even the slightest wiggle room in the Doom of the Tyrant would be welcome. Thankfully Evening Sky provides ablative social armor in the form of charisma, layered atop the traditional sort.
Looks like our decisions have had implications for Hunger's character. He admitted going after the King Fish was a bad idea immediately after catching it, that the diversion ran counter to the purpose of this stop in the first place, but he was caught up in the moment. Carp
It's not that suspicious, since we know that our Curse load-out determined the insertion point. I'd call it a favor from the Accursed, but from Gisena's perspective Hunger's probably pretty concerning! Especially earlier, on the heels of her encounter with a different Hero, before she got to know him.
It's a fair point, not like asking Gisena for help is a painless experience, though we'd have bitten the bullet eventually. This is a nice scene, the river of exposition flowing in the other direction for once. I'm glad we got to see both halves of the Knowledge vote play out on-screen.
Her only fault is that she's too humble! At least she's sticking with this flaw for a while. Actual concern for Hunger's well-being's a good sign too, even if it is cloaked in manipulation.
You could say the shoe's on the other foot now.
Partial mitigation of the Allrian Affliction for a month, eh? Hunger's really on top of this Curse business.
Thankfully Letrizia's already asleep, or I'd be worried about eavesdropping being a two-way street. She's been amicable so far, a valuable source of knowledge and transportation, but I doubt she'd be so sanguine about our ultimate objective. Laying this all out is useful, at least now someone else knows the constraints we're working under.
I suppose she'd know all about sacrificial techniques, what with her attempted assassination and the ultimate ability we saw in AST 1.0. Mass dispellation even on the brink of death, the supernal scoured from the world as far as the horizon. I'm not sure it was even possible to win that fight without losing half our Amplitude, Seram may have been screwed as soon we elected not to go all 'Wound That Walks' and sound the retreat.
A cutting choice of words when talking to an amputee. We don't know the story behind Hunger's maiming, but his backstory's a fractal rabbithole of trauma, becoming more horrifying the more we learn of it. At least he's got good synergy with Vitalism if we ever encounter the Spiral. Strong thematic backbone for a budding Edifice, lots of pre-sacrificed organs. With the Terrascape Form we could become the Fisher King in truth!
I'd be concerned with the dubiously-necessary soulful staring, but honestly it's just good that our man's finally getting some rest. His panoply's very comfy; the ring boosts visceral pleasures and now we have the night sky literally draped around our shoulders.
1757 words for
ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
So, an analysis of the revealed artifact progression options.
So, this is a super mode, and a really strong one. Useful for those circumstances when the Apocryphal throws major events at us. We could get this in fairly short order, but maybe we'll get a limited time offer that's better.
This is utterly ridiculous at high Astral Rank, as each cumulative rank is higher value then the last. This is a strong lategame purchase.
Cheap and really good. Lets us restore health by sleeping, and gives some healing ability which we could likely expand with Progression. I think this might be the most important short-term purchase.
The Progression boost is unique, and very powerful in the long term. Stats are nice as well. The problem with this is that it's expensive, and also gives value over the long term. If we've been saving Arete to get to 25 we're probably drifting behind on the Apocryphal Curse Curve, and thus will want something that gives more immediate value for our 25 Arete.
On the other hand, if we manage to pull this off, it improves our scaling, increasing our chances to outscale the Apocryphal in the long-term. It's high-risk high-reward.
No Arete cost, we'll probably pick this up at some point when we're saving Arete for a big purchase. It's good. Nothing much else to say here.
Cheap and gets us access to another magic system. Exploiting interactions between multiple magic systems is really good, see Thrice-Great. No especial talent is not ideal, but we can probably fix that with Progression.
Also, it's cheap, super versatile, and broadens our scope of action. Honestly I think this is the best option offered, because it gets around the weakness of Accretion: only being able to purchase things that fit our legend and artifacts. Another magic system opens up our options in a big way.
This. This thing.
So there's a lot this does. It gets us and our companions frick-tons of resources, gets us immortality for our companions (which I should note they don't have, and we're going to be here for millennia).
Most importantly though, it has super-high synergy with Huntress's Moon. This can be used once a month, and can probably generate a hunger sated target. Guess what, Decimator's is done with permanently. This is super increasing my enthusiasm for Huntress's Moon, I hope the vote hasn't closed yet. If we get Huntress's Moon this is absolutely the best 25 Arete option.
Anyway, I haven't read the last two pages of discussion yet, so I may be saying things people already knew. Have to go catch up now. This thread moves fast, it feels like every time I fall asleep I fall behind.
So, this is a super mode, and a really strong one. Useful for those circumstances when the Apocryphal throws major events at us. We could get this in fairly short order, but maybe we'll get a limited time offer that's better.
This is utterly ridiculous at high Astral Rank, as each cumulative rank is higher value then the last. This is a strong lategame purchase.
Cheap and really good. Lets us restore health by sleeping, and gives some healing ability which we could likely expand with Progression. I think this might be the most important short-term purchase.
The Progression boost is unique, and very powerful in the long term. Stats are nice as well. The problem with this is that it's expensive, and also gives value over the long term. If we've been saving Arete to get to 25 we're probably drifting behind on the Apocryphal Curse Curve, and thus will want something that gives more immediate value for our 25 Arete.
On the other hand, if we manage to pull this off, it improves our scaling, increasing our chances to outscale the Apocryphal in the long-term. It's high-risk high-reward.
No Arete cost, we'll probably pick this up at some point when we're saving Arete for a big purchase. It's good. Nothing much else to say here.
Cheap and gets us access to another magic system. Exploiting interactions between multiple magic systems is really good, see Thrice-Great. No especial talent is not ideal, but we can probably fix that with Progression.
Also, it's cheap, super versatile, and broadens our scope of action. Honestly I think this is the best option offered, because it gets around the weakness of Accretion: only being able to purchase things that fit our legend and artifacts. Another magic system opens up our options in a big way.
This. This thing.
So there's a lot this does. It gets us and our companions frick-tons of resources, gets us immortality for our companions (which I should note they don't have, and we're going to be here for millennia).
Most importantly though, it has super-high synergy with Huntress's Moon. This can be used once a month, and can probably generate a hunger sated target. Guess what, Decimator's is done with permanently. This is super increasing my enthusiasm for Huntress's Moon, I hope the vote hasn't closed yet. If we get Huntress's Moon this is absolutely the best 25 Arete option.
Anyway, I haven't read the last two pages of discussion yet, so I may be saying things people already knew. Have to go catch up now. This thread moves fast, it feels like every time I fall asleep I fall behind.
Maybe, but I'm thinking when Martyr says you have to help this one innocent and another Curse prevents you from doing so, the only one hurt by it will be you. Like the interaction between Champion's Brand and Tyrant's Doom.
Still, it's really strange that the process has such similar suitability requirements for different people with different Curse loadouts, so I'm thinking the purity requirement isn't due to the Curses, but because of Progression. For some reason the Accursed's power is more easily transplanted into people pure of body and mind etc etc.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
Perhaps the issue is not the curses we can get or the progression, but rather it is itself one of the curses on him - he may only pass power to those who are comoletely pure. He then mitigated it to "sufficiently pure" but can go no farther. And since he's the only one that can hand out his power he can't pass the curse off.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
Only if we enter and stay for an extended period with Decimator's curse active, and given one of the uses seems to be to sate said curse...
It also depends on if the realm counts as alive. Otherwise it can probably just generate life as needed for those 7 days.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm not convinced we can just work hard and find valid targets. Why gamble when we can get something that will always work and that synergizes with other mitigation?
Pillar sounds the funnest. If it ever happens we get 25 though I think there's a strong chance we spend on some limited time option instead. Looking at Evening Sky's description, the pluses do more work than I originally realized.
Looking at the vote, Tyrant mitigation seems unlikely to make a comeback, I'll give it a chance though.Though I still think using our month to look into depth before committing ourselves to the only mainline mitigation we get before universe busting is smarter. We've already seen some choices (Feast of life) go better with direct mitigation and others (Conclusion) Moon. Getting an idea about what types might be more common. Regardless of that though between the two Decimation options I'll probably switch to Moon soon. I'd say it fits well the Hunger's "I'll just try harder" rationale. It also sort of precommits us to active effort whereas additional options like Feast seem as though they might fall by the wayside on the voting battle grounds easier.
Looking at the vote, Tyrant mitigation seems unlikely to make a comeback, I'll give it a chance though.Though I still think using our month to look into depth before committing ourselves to the only mainline mitigation we get before universe busting is smarter. We've already seen some choices (Feast of life) go better with direct mitigation and others (Conclusion) Moon. Getting an idea about what types might be more common. Regardless of that though between the two Decimation options I'll probably switch to Moon soon. I'd say it fits well the Hunger's "I'll just try harder" rationale. It also sort of precommits us to active effort whereas additional options like Feast seem as though they might fall by the wayside on the voting battle grounds easier.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Dunno. We could always try to harness some kind of Rihakuverse analogue to Third Impact and put it toward Curse Mitigation if we wanted a second round of it in this universe if Direct Mitigation wins. The problem is well... we don't know what kind of conspiracy is going on or if we can set off an analogue to Third Impact for Curse Mitigation. *Indecisiveness*
Edit: To clarify I'm referring to a Third Impact scenario analogous to the one in the Evangelion 2.0 Movie,
Edit2: Let's hope its closer to Third Impact.
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Rihaku
The Internet
Pillar is really great, though probably the least proactive of the three! If you pick it, you guys will have to plan well since it relies on logistical and support advantages rather than giving you straightforward power with which to proceed. Caveat emptor.
Talace
It must be raining somewhere else!
It's interesting that for 25 Arete, we can only channel a small fraction of the Forebear's true might-- how powerful must he have been, that such powerful bonuses in the Ruling Ring and the Pillars of Creation are considered equal to Once and the Future? Additionally, is it that channeling his true might and gaining insight into his history is what increases our Astral Rank, or are they discrete effects that simply happen at the same time upon unlocking the option?
I find the existence of a Progression stat to be interesting to consider. Does it increase our maximum total potential, akin to that one stat in Terrascape? Or does it increase our latent talent to acquire more power, becoming a genius of magic systems overnight? Perhaps it is a multiplier, widening the remit of each progression increment and making each "stat point" more inherently valuable yet as easy to acquire as before? Or perhaps the most Rihaku option of all-- all of the above and more!
I find the existence of a Progression stat to be interesting to consider. Does it increase our maximum total potential, akin to that one stat in Terrascape? Or does it increase our latent talent to acquire more power, becoming a genius of magic systems overnight? Perhaps it is a multiplier, widening the remit of each progression increment and making each "stat point" more inherently valuable yet as easy to acquire as before? Or perhaps the most Rihaku option of all-- all of the above and more!