also clearly we should [ ] Trust Verschlengorge , our real waifu

They're all super cool. I really like the third for looking sorta skeletal, like it's actually starving. The hunch on the first one is also nice and so is the way its head kinda protrudes a bit; both make it feel kinda beastial. The second one is the most organic looking with its heads which is pretty nice since a lot of emphasis has been put on how biological these mecha are.
 
[X] Fierce Vigor
[X] Spend No Arete
[X] Tyrant - Direct Mitigation
[X] Apocryphal Curse - Tribulation: Slightly increases the difficulty of encounters, but the Apocryphal Curse will not trigger more than once per month, starting next month.
[X] Extra +Gisena

We aren't so hurt that we need to take a short term option to heal up, if it healed exhaustion that would be something.

Tyrant - Direction Mitigation seems like it has a loophole. Get a companion to act as a proxy and subserviently relay information and we can get around it a bit. Good Tyrant, Bad Tyrant.

Lessen the encounters to give our build time to plan around them, and safety for a month. Best Mitigation by far.
 
aight so I'm playing with some potential Verschlengorges and turning the EVA slider up and down with some other mecha design styles, whatchoo guys think



also clearly we should [ ] Trust Verschlengorge , our real waifu

3 is closest to the head structure I was thinking of, while 1 has the closest body in terms of mass, though I like 3's body design in terms of aesthetic. They're all really great tho.

If I could get a guarantee that we'd pursue the Devourer plot thread post-haste and not be distracted by any shinies on the way, I could see waiting on Decimator to fully understand our options; but I don't think I can ask that of the voterbase. Hell, I can't ask this of myself, before Rihaku revealed EFB Dao I was absolutely sure nothing he could show would sway me form pursuing Philosopher-King, but then I read All Paths and lost instantly.

Isn't that the nature of All Paths?
 
Decimator Direct mitigation seems to have an almost negligible difference from a QALs perspective. If it improved duration of Sated, maybe..
 
[X] Fierce Vigor: The terrible might of its thrashing sinews, fit to part wave from shore. Gain one copy of [Echo of the Forebear], granting +Might and +Agility.
[X] Spend 2 Arete (top 3 picks will occur)
[X] Decimator - Huntress' Moon: Impairs all conventional mitigation attempts by 40%, but dramatically increases the number and availability of targets for A Hunger, Sated. Targets will always be at least minimally challenging or in some way exceptional.
[X] Tyrant - Trusted Counsel - A single trusted Lieutenant can attempt to convince you that one law or custom would be sufficiently valuable to comply with that you may tolerate it for a time. The custom may be broad, but not overly so, and may not be changed once your mind is set.
-[X] Trust Verschlengorge
[X] Apocryphal Curse - Tribulation: Slightly increases the difficulty of encounters, but the Apocryphal Curse will not trigger more than once per month, starting next month.
[X] Extra +Gisena

In defiance of good sense, going for the full Shonen Protagonist build. Major fight every month, more in between to keep the skills sharp. Can't comprehend laws even when they're explained to him. Has two beautiful women dogging his heels, but only ever listens to his giant robot.
 
[x] King's Blood
[x] Spend No Arete
(top 2 picks)
[x] Decimator - Huntress' Moon
[x] Apocryphal Curse
- Direct Mitigation: Reduces the difficulty of encounters by roughly 10%.
[x] +0.5 Arete
 
This is gonna be a long one, folks.
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by BrainInAJar on May 29, 2020 at 3:50 AM, finished with 128 posts and 37 votes.
 
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[X] Fierce Vigor
[X] Spend No Arete
(top 2 picks)
[X] Tyrant - Direct Mitigation
[X] Apocryphal Curse - Direct Mitigation: Reduces the difficulty of encounters by roughly 10%.
[X] +0.5 Arete
 
Hmm. Gisena is level ~100 (1e2), and has a specialized suite to provide stage 1 mitigation. It looks like '8' stages of mitigation would erase a curse, going by Decimation and Slumber.

~Power equal to the universe is about Stage 15 or Rank 10. This is about level 1 million (infinite power). Or about 1e6 for Stage 2 mitigation. This suggests: 1e10 for Stage 3, 1e15 for Stage 4, 1e21 for Stage 5, 1e28 for Stage 6, 1e36 for Stage 7, if the progression is as hypothesizes: Multiply power needed by 10^(Stage+1) levels. The Accursed is level 7.39e34, though, so the pattern probably breaks somewhere.
 
[X] Spend 2 Arete (top 3 picks will occur)

[X] Decimator - Direct Mitigation: Reduces drain rate by 12.5%, now 8.75% per year.

[X] Tyrant - Trusted Counsel
-[X] Trust Gisena

[X] +0.5 Arete
 
Hmm. Gisena is level ~100 (1e2), and has a specialized suite to provide stage 1 mitigation. It looks like '8' stages of mitigation would erase a curse, going by Decimation and Slumber.

~Power equal to the universe is about Stage 15 or Rank 10. This is about level 1 million (infinite power). Or about 1e6 for Stage 2 mitigation. This suggests: 1e10 for Stage 3, 1e15 for Stage 4, 1e21 for Stage 5, 1e28 for Stage 6, 1e36 for Stage 7, if the progression is as hypothesizes: Multiply power needed by 10^(Stage+1) levels. The Accursed is level 7.39e34, though, so the pattern probably breaks somewhere.

That assumes a straight forwards scaling which doesn't really work since Progression accelerates it's growth rate as it goes up in levels. Moreover, it accelerates its growth rate's growth rate and its growth rate's growth rate's growth rate and so on. While Curse Mitigation scales up pretty painfully, I don't think it would outpace the Infinite Singularity Husk in the long run. It's more likely that Curses actually take decreasing orders of magnitude to mitigate as levels go up.

The power of the Curses grows with our power level too, so the Mitigation curve is probably more punishing than the leveling curve.

I don't think the power of the Curses grows with our level necessarily. Certainly, they scale with us but that's likely due to the Accursed adjusting them so that it's possible for Cursebearers to deal with them, instead of getting instantly destroyed. I doubt the versions that the Accursed or the High Cursebearer might have would be so kind as to maintain relativity.
 
I don't think the power of the Curses grows with our level necessarily. Certainly, they scale with us but that's likely due to the Accursed adjusting them so that it's possible for Cursebearers to deal with them, instead of getting instantly destroyed. I doubt the versions that the Accursed or the High Cursebearer might have would be so kind as to maintain relativity.
I don't think we have different versions, exactly. Ours might be infinitely^x smaller in function, but their nature shouldn't be all that different, much like our Progression is Accursed's Progression, just lessened to an unimaginable degree. If the Curses dealt in absolutes, I think the Accursed would have contemptuously outscaled them fairly quickly. Though I also believe it's the amount that troubles him rather than individual effectiveness.
 
Rather surprising that King's Blood / Fierce Vigor and Decimator Direct Mitigation / Huntress' Moon are still so neck and neck. Those particular points will definitely come down to arguments and omakes if this trend continues. Extra +Gisena is a bit behind in votes compared to +5 Arete, but it's got a lot of omake power... some arguments could sway it too.

Hmm. Gisena is level ~100 (1e2), and has a specialized suite to provide stage 1 mitigation. It looks like '8' stages of mitigation would erase a curse, going by Decimation and Slumber.

~Power equal to the universe is about Stage 15 or Rank 10. This is about level 1 million (infinite power). Or about 1e6 for Stage 2 mitigation. This suggests: 1e10 for Stage 3, 1e15 for Stage 4, 1e21 for Stage 5, 1e28 for Stage 6, 1e36 for Stage 7, if the progression is as hypothesizes: Multiply power needed by 10^(Stage+1) levels. The Accursed is level 7.39e34, though, so the pattern probably breaks somewhere.

Interesting speculation! The level system becomes increasingly less meaningful (or useful) at the high end because presumably Seram post level 1 billion will have means of quantification that are more accurate to the true power of the beings involved... the qualitative and quantitative difference in power that even one level represents at the nonillion+ stage probably can't be represented by axiomatic mathematics!
 
I'm not sure if this sort of analysis counts as a fan work, but if so: 2,003 words by the forum post word counter
---

Okay, I'm going to try and do an exhaustive analysis of possible Decimator's Affliction mitigation builds, and what they get us.

First, we need to talk about what it does by default. By default, we strip 10% of the remaining life force from a large region (size determined by our power level). That means, for a normal human population, reducing their (remaining?) lifespan by 10% per year. Furthermore, if there isn't enough life force in range (criteria for this are uncertain!) it will start to consume us, body and soul. For each level of mitigation, I'm going to give the time it takes for us to strip 50%, 90%, 99%, and 99.9% of the life force in range, and the builds that will let us get to that level.

Even a drain of 50% has an immense human cost, reducing a thriving healthy population (lifespan of 80 years) to a sickened and dying one (lifespan 40 years). 90% is enough to destroy a human population, killing everyone in under a decade. As even the children won't live to see adulthood, it's unlikely that a population subjected to this will ever recover, short of the most drastic and well organized intervention possible. At 99% drained, the human population is already dead along with almost all animal and plant life. At 99.9% we'd just be consuming the last extremophile bacteria or something.

For our kingdom to survive to the end of our rule, we must stay at least above the 90% threshold. If we should have any care for those beneath us, rather then becoming a Doom far worse then the Tyrant ever was, we should keep above the 50% threshold. Even if we should find a region we care nothing for, we will likely be forced to move on before the 99% threshold is reached, though the criteria for this are unclear.

I am also going to assume, that since we need to be powerful enough to conquer this realm, we will end up with a Decimation field of size similar to the kingdom we need to subdue. We might be able to get out of this by e.g. getting in the robot and relying on its power instead of our own, but since the whole point of this exercise is for us to become powerful it doesn't really make much sense.

So what options do we have to prevent this?

Major Mitigations
Actual direct mitigations to the curse. These become more costly on a super-exponential scale, which effectively limits us to 1 choice for the duration of our time here. Getting a second mitigation requires more then the total energy output of the universe, and we shouldn't expect to acquire such levels even given 2,000 years.
  • Direct mitigation - gain 1 level of mitigation (12.5% reduction) permanently
  • Huntress' Moon - No direct mitigation and impairs future Direct mitigation by 40%, but gives us many more chances to acquire A Hunger Sated. The exact size of the increase is uncertain, but is stated to be "dramatic", so probably somewhere between 2x and 10x.
A Hunger Sated
By default, we can kill and consume one mini-boss tier enemy to suppress the curse entirely for 1 month. We currently have no idea how common such enemies are, except that we found one on our second(?) day here. Also reduces progress from Hunger by 10%, but that's a trivial price to pay.
  • Quelling - Spend 2 Arete, reduce the mitigation to 50%, but extend it to 6 months
    • Note that, despite costing Arete, this is not strictly beneficial. It increases the duration of the effect, but reduces the strength. For infrequent hunts, this is net beneficial, but it caps the maximum effort we can put into mitigating Decimator's this way.
    • I'm going to assume this stacks multiplicatively with Direct mitigation, so Quelling+Direct gives us a 56.25% reduction, not 62.5%
  • Conclusion - Spend 7 Arete, increase the progress penalty to 25% and the duration of mitigation to 2 years
    • IMPORTANT NOTE: I only just noticed on re-reading this, but this is still a complete curse mitigation
  • I calculated the effect of keeping this up X% of the time as (base drain)^(1-X)*(reduced drain)^(X). This gives a percent drain per year. The values below for how often we need to hunt to get different levels of mitigation are approximated via trial-and-error.
Finally, we were once offered Feast of Lives, which allowed us to mitigate Decimator's by 5% at the cost of an intense carnivore lifestyle. This option is no longer available, and trivial compared to the rest, but we can generally expect to be offered chances to feed our curse in other, smaller ways. I doubt any such options will stack up to either of the above though.

No mitigation
50% Drain: 6.6 Years
90% Drain: 21.9 Years
99% Drain: 43.7 Years
99.9% Drain: 65.6 Years

Build Options:
Anything goes

This isn't really an option, but it's worth setting out our baseline scenario. Here we essentially can't be in our kingdom at all. For the minimum rulership of 50 years, we would have to spend just 1/10th of our time here, and less then that once you take into account the time taken to conquer it to begin with. At this level I'm honestly not sure it's possible to complete our quest before the Human Sphere is destroyed by the Decimator's Affliction.

1/8th Mitigation
Reduce the rate of drain by 1/8, to 8.75% per year.
50% Drain: 7.6 Years
90% Drain: 25.1 Years
99% Drain: 50.3 Years
99.9% Drain: 75.4 Years

Build Options:
- Direct mitigation, no hunting required
- No upgrades, hunt once every 7.5 months
- Quelling, hunt once every 2 years
- Conclusion, hunt once every 15(!) years
- At this level, we probably don't need Huntress' Moon to supply us with enough mini-bosses

This doesn't really change the situation compared to no mitigation. We still have to spend almost all of our time outside of our target area, and it's still unclear that we can actually take control of it within that constraint.

2/8th Mitigation
Reduce the rate of drain by 2/8, to 7.5% per year.
50% Drain: 8.9 Years
90% Drain: 29.5 Years
99% Drain: 59 Years
99.9% Drain: 88.6 Years

Build Options:
- Direct mitigation, hunt once every 7 months
- Direct mitigation+Quelling, hunt once every 1.75 years
- Direct mitigation+Conclusion, hunt once every 14 years
- No upgrades, hunt once every 4 months
- Quelling, hunt once every year
- Conclusion, hunt once every 8 years

3/8th Mitigation
Reduce the rate of drain by 3/8, to 6.25% per year.
50% Drain: 10.7 Years
90% Drain: 35.7 Years
99% Drain: 71.3 Years
99.9% Drain: 107 Years

Build Options:
- Direct mitigation, hunt once every 3.4 months
- Might run out of enemies, and can't take Huntress' Moon to compensate
- Direct mitigation+Quelling, hunt once every 10 months
- Direct mitigation+Conclusion, hunt once every 6.75 years
- No upgrades, hunt once every 2.6 months
- Quelling, hunt once every 8 months
- Conclusion, hunt once every 5.2 years

4/8th Mitigation
Reduce the rate of drain by 4/8, to 5% per year.
50% Drain: 13.5 Years
90% Drain: 44.9 Years
99% Drain: 89.9 Years
99.9% Drain: 135 Years

Build Options:
- Direct mitigation, hunt once every 2.3 months
- Direct mitigation+Quelling, hunt once every 7 months
- Direct mitigation+Conclusion, hunt once every 54 months
- No upgrades, hunt once every 1.95 months
- Quelling, hunt once every 6 months
- Conclusion, hunt once every 47 months

At this point we can just about stay in the Human Sphere, assuming we don't care that they will all die shortly after we leave. Note that the benefits of Direct mitigation have been sharply eroded by the multiplicative combination with hunting. While it gives us a better base, the benefits of the hunt are scaled down, so we still need to hunt almost as often.

5/8th Mitigation
Reduce the rate of drain by 5/8, to 3.75% per year.
50% Drain: 18.1 Years
90% Drain: 60.2 Years
99% Drain: 121 Years
99.9% Drain: 181 Years

Build Options:
- At this point, Quelling is not longer sufficient. No amount of hunting can make it work.
- Direct mitigation, hunt once every 1.7 months
- Direct mitigation+Conclusion, hunt once every 41 months
- No upgrades, hunt once every 1.57 months
- Conclusion, hunt once every 38 months

6/8th Mitigation
Reduce the rate of drain by 6/8, to 2.5% per year.
50% Drain: 27.4 Years
90% Drain: 90.9 Years
99% Drain: 182 Years
99.9% Drain: 273 Years

Build Options:
- Direct mitigation, hunt once every 1.38 months
- Direct mitigation+Conclusion, hunt once every 33 months
- No upgrades, hunt once every 1.32 months
- Conclusion, hunt once every 31.5 months

7/8th Mitigation
Reduce the rate of drain by 7/8, to 1.25% per year.
50% Drain: 55.1 Years
90% Drain: 183 Years
99% Drain: 366 Years
99.9% Drain: 549 Years

Build Options:
- Direct mitigation, hunt once every 1.16 months
- Direct mitigation+Conclusion, hunt once every 27.8 months
- No upgrades, hunt once every 1.13 months
- Conclusion, hunt once every 27.2 months

At this point we could actually stay in the Human Sphere full time with out even destroying it outright. But if we've come this far, why not go for...

Complete Mitigation
Completely eliminate the lifedrain
50% Drain: ∞ Years
90% Drain: ∞ Years
99% Drain: ∞ Years
99.9% Drain: ∞ Years

Build Options:
- Direct mitigation, hunt once every month
- Direct mitigation+Conclusion, hunt once every 24 months
- No upgrades, hunt once every month
- Conclusion, hunt once every 24 months

The holy grail of any Cursebearer, complete elimination of one of their curses, and for a remarkably low price!

Conclusions:
The benefit of Direct mitigation depends very heavily on how much mitigation we want. At 1 tick it takes us from needing to periodically hunt to doing nothing, but as we push into higher levels of mitigation the benefits get ever more tenuous. At 50% mitigation the benefits are a barely noticiable reduction in hunt frequency (maybe 15%), and if we aim for 100% mitigation there is no benefit at all. On the other hand, Huntress' Moon has ever greater benefits as we strain the local mini-boss supply ever more. At low levels we probably don't need it at all, at high levels it probably becomes mandatory, though exactly where that threshold lies is unclear. While it does reduce the effect of Direct mitigation by a lot, it's a fully effective path for mitigation in it's own right. Presumably going down this path further would mean decreasing mini-boss difficulty and increasing the benefits from winning, but even with just this single step we can get much more then the Direct path allows as long as we're willing to put in some ongoing work.

Also, holy shit is Conclusion good, it may be the single best option we've been given this entire quest. For just 7 Arete and one mini-boss fight every 2 years we can completely eliminate a major curse! Or, really, turn it into the Curse of Minibosses, but the Apocryphal Curse is already that so it's good enough until we can really cut into Apocryphal over the next however many worlds.

I would strongly argue that we need high levels of mitigation to make our quest viable. Even at 50% mitigation, we would seriously damage our kingdom in just 1/4 of the required control time, not to mention the toll inflicted on our companions. It's possible that we don't actually need to take a Major mitigation for Decimator's at all to get this, we could just subsist of one hunt every 2 years with Conclusion, but I would advocate for taking Huntress' Moon anyway. It doesn't cost much relative to our resources, since we can only mitigate each curse once anyway instead of being able to save a mitigation here to use elsewhere, and it essentially guarantees we won't run out of minibosses to feed Hunger with.
 
Alright -

Blood vs Vigor

I heavily disagree with taking Blood. So far it seems that people are just kneejerking from "we need short term security" + "we need healing" without considering how options actually play out. While it's true that we do need healing, our need is much lesser now that we have Evening Sky(which, incidentally, also stops bleeding out) which can prevent damage rather than having to heal it. Blood has shit synergy with Night Sky, as it does nothing until Evening Sky is breached and we take damage, while Vigor is proactive and allows us to kill enemies before they breach Evening. Vigor also stacks with Fell Blade while Blood doesn't.

And it's just ten times regen, not something combat relevant or something that would help us with truly debilitating injuries. Meanwhile Vigor gives good stats that fully stack with our build, allow us to challenge stronger foes and, above all, is permanent.

We do need healing, but that healing needs to be permanent and good. Blood is neither.

Decimator Hunter vs Direct

Direct is fine, so I'll rather shill for Hunter instead. To begin with, people need to realize that we don't need to keep on triggering Sated each month to make this worth it - even something like one enemy in five months is super worth it. More importantly, this is not just mitigation in the life force drain, but it comes with other advantages Direct simply doesn't offer:
  • Diplomacy/Evading detection with/from beings or polities that can detect the drain
  • Being able to visit places of desolation such as space or ancient ruins on other planets, allowing us to utilize Evening Sky to the fullest
  • Being capable of utilizing temporal acceleration and the like without Decimator power-draining everything
Yeah, we need to kill people for this, but here's the thing - that's what we are going to do anyway. We will have Apocrypha throw enemies at us and we will kill them for Hunger procs, so we get additional mitigation on top of Hunger proc essentially for free. And it's not a bit of it, it's a whole month.

It reduces other attempts at mitigation, but that's perfectly fine. To begin with, it's a powerful option so it's only natural that we need to pay for it. But we are ok with paying this, as it simply means we will spend out opportunities for mitigation on other stuff. More importantly, value of this choice directly scales with our own power - the stronger we are, the faster we are, the more we can do in a month. More than that, while Direct mitigation gets weaker as we grow stronger, Hunter will always let us have that month regardless of our power. As such, in theory, we could fully mitigate Decimator by pulling a Nameless and having access to realm that can spawn level relevant opponents. Easier said than done, of course, but it does offer us sort of endgame.
 
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[X] King's Blood
[X] Spend No Arete
[X] Decimator - Huntress' Moon
[X] Apocryphal Curse - Tribulation
[X] +0.5 Arete


I've been convinced that procrastinating on mitigating the Geas is okay, there's no need to spend Arete to speed up something that won't matter for at least 50 years. I am not really sold on mitigating the Doom of the Tyrant yet though, since neither of the mitigations look very significant to me, but I could be convinced.
Adhoc vote count started by Skelm on May 29, 2020 at 5:01 AM, finished with 139 posts and 39 votes.
 
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By default, we can kill and consume one mini-boss tier enemy to suppress the curse entirely for 1 month.

The specification needed to qualify as a valid Hunger Sated target is far more narrow than just "mini-boss!" Without Huntress Moon you have no idea of when you'll encounter a Hunger Sated target again. Even with Huntress Moon it's possible it could be very infrequent.
 
Analysis Summary: The more effort we put on mitigating Decimator's Affliction through alternate means, the less valuable direct mitigation is, but if we don't put considerable effort anyway, the Human Sphere is still in trouble. A very convincing argument for Moon in my opinion.

Weirdly enough, just a single activation every four months makes Sated have double the efficiency of Direct mitigation. That's pretty huge, and tells how good Sated is.

I am not really sold on mitigating the Doom of the Tyrant yet though, since neither of the mitigations look very significant to me, but I could be convinced.
If you are voting for Tribulation knowing that it can still hold off on triggering for more than a month, May I ask why?
 
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The specification needed to qualify as a valid Hunger Sated target is far more narrow than just "mini-boss!" Without Huntress Moon you have no idea of when you'll encounter a Hunger Sated target again. Even with Huntress Moon it's possible it could be very infrequent.
Okay, so we should definitely take Huntress' Moon instead of just hoping a lack of mitigation works out.
If you are voting for Tribulation knowing that it can still hold off on triggering for more than a month, May I ask why?
The Curse can already do that, so it's not making anything worse here. I think getting any time at all when we know for sure that there won't be an attack is a big deal.
 
Analysis Summary: The more effort we put on mitigating Decimator's Affliction through alternate means, the less valuable direct mitigation is, but if we don't put considerable effort anyway, the Human Sphere is still in trouble. A very convincing argument for Moon in my opinion.

Weirdly enough, just a single activation every four months makes Sated have double the efficiency of Direct mitigation. That's pretty huge, and tells how good Sated is.

Don't forget, it does somewhat nerf your growth rate in the meantime! Perhaps not terribly relevant if you don't use it often, but in the long run it all adds up...

Somewhat like in a clicker game, where a 2x can feel like nothing on paper, but then you realize that to hit the true endgame numbers you need every. single. multiplier!

Luckily Verschlengorge may have its own means of mitigation to offer you!
 
Don't forget, it does somewhat nerf your growth rate in the meantime! Perhaps not terribly relevant if you don't use it often, but in the long run it all adds up...

Somewhat like in a clicker game, where a 2x can feel like nothing on paper, but then you realize that to hit the true endgame numbers you need every. single. multiplier!

Luckily Verschlengorge may have its own means of mitigation to offer you!
>Sated reduces our Hunger proc value by 10%
>Tribulation increases our challenges by 10%

:thonk:
 
[X] Fierce Vigor
[X] Spend No Arete
[X] Decimator - Huntress' Moon
[X] Apocryphal Curse - Direct Mitigation
[X] Extra +Gisena
 
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