Game, Set, [MAFIA]

Do people like pointless polls with their mafia?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 7 24.1%
  • No.

    Votes: 2 6.9%
  • I didn't answer this.

    Votes: 7 24.1%
  • Wynaut?

    Votes: 13 44.8%

  • Total voters
    29
Guys what is the point of a mafia lawyer??

Hard to say if this is just memes or the start of the town beating stick

We need something to start actual discussion or nothing happens, and a lot of set-up speculation is bad because scum intrinsically starts knowing more. A semi-open set-up actually weakens a lot of that argument.

I'll admit, I'm more suspect of Deviljho's reaction than yours atm.

You never really explained this fully I think

Hm. I also find it kind of scummy that LDJ jumped in to shade me but is planning to vote for meme.

[X] Vote LostDeviljho

I can't remember why I quoted this

LDJ is also pretty suspicious, but there is nothing there I can really hang a vote on. So probably IH, but I am not nearly solid enough on anybody yet.

You might be scum, taking a lead to direct town discussion, but that is wine.

Shifty and noncommital. I don't really like this.

I find it uncomfortable how many people seem to have faked up actual justifications for Devil already and I do not think I'll.be voting there today.

Disengages as soon as the wagon gets big...for people voting for the near same reasoning that they jumped on for.

... What part of stop bleeding info do you people not get? Jesus.

Also, we should do some cop cover tomorrow.

What info bleed was there? We started the game knowing about Drawbacks, everyone has them. This is the part which baffles me that LDJ had info bleed when really they were making analogous statements that are essentially wine.

Second part of this is I guess makes more sense why he started this today.

Honestly two of my suspects are Toto and LDJ as well, but I don't feel great about voting for either as Toto is basically a newbie and LDJ is back after a long absense.

I don't get the Shadell suspicion. And it rubs me the wrong way. I also don't like Cyri's response to Shadell's question. Refusal to actually give a read and then saying no kill me? Feels like a very wolfy thing to do. Tell them you're not afraid to die at all! As though you can put off suspicion by being overly relaxed with the idea.

[X] vote Cyricubed

Like I said OMGUS but actually on further inspecetion there is more. They jumped really hard on defending Shadell right away.

I'm down with a little pressure, @Shadell.

[x] vote Qtesseract

Give us all your lunch money!

I mean tell us your secrets. Shadell is right you are quiet.

And here it is again. Very shortly after Shadell's push comes Ondine pursuing QT.

Changing my vote.
[X] Vote Deviljho

Forgot adding justification, but of all people who bleed their roles early Deviljho seemed to be the most suspect as it was unwarranted. Telling people "I am a good but relatively unimportant townie" wheb nobody asked sounds suspect to me. At least it's a better excuse compared to the one I had for my previous vote, namely gut feeling.

Again, More so called info bleed but really nothing...

LDJ is bleeding a lot of info in really unnecessary ways. It seems performative.

Please someone explain HOW LDJ was actually Info bleeding? It's actually annoying that so many people kept saying this...and gave no actual reasoning or pointed out what the bleed was...because IMO it didn't exist.

[X] Vote Shadell

Frankly speaking I just found out there's only 3 hours left, so.. I'm stepping away from my joke vote.

Hopefully they're a wolf. That's really the best thing I can hope for. Killing a wolf early would be ideal.

Sheepy, I don't like that on principle.

It's pretty tenuous to suggest anyone pointing out that scum has counterintelligence powers is really a masterplan to demotivate town PRs from revealing when needed. Like, D1 has been a sea of pointless info-bleed, we hardly need to convince the players to be more forthcoming here.

Yes but you vastly overplayed scum's advantage. Our Watchers and Trackers can't be fooled, only muddled with a few extra town in the mix. But even then the likelyhood of more than 3 people(Watchers included) visiting one person is low.

I literally just inserted a tally with the right votes. Devil does have two votes. And this is super weird and manipulative and thanks for giving me a real suspicion on D1. Wow.

[X] vote Interstellarhobo

Easy jump, I've noticed I lost quotes here but I'm not backtracking for them. Pretty sure there was more Ondine jumping to Shadell's defense hyper fast and following their train of thought

Alright let's go for This.
[x] Vote shadell

No, I don't really care. I did say I like interstellarhobo's line of logic, since it appears to be true unless someone points out a second vote I managed to miss.
So I'll vote with him on this.

Don't like this...especially after noticing the major slip Ondine did trying to push a vote there.

I agreed with your initial summation of the situation. I didn't like the later "which of these three guys should we kill" bit. It feels like an attempt to control the vote, which is more typically a wolfish impulse than townish one. Maybe it is a difference in style, but it still feels off.

I'm not 100% on your being scum at this point (not even close), but this is what is standing out to me.

To be honest, none of the wagons look super compelling at this point. There are a couple folks I would probably vote for, but I don't want to kill a newbie day one.

I need to vote for somebody, though, and at this point I have narrowed it down to only a third of the thread. I think for right now that's going to be @LostDeviljho .

There "I'm low utility town" thing just really doesn't sit right. I can see a dozen different ways to read those posts, but none of the towny ones make more sense than just saying nothing about your role.

[X] vote LostDeviljho

This is where we get the Repush onto LDJ again. The most towny reason for this is simply to dissuade scum killing them. They know their role, they know what they could do with it. Especially with them being a Watcher, IMO they were one of our most important roles. Instead everyone read the face value and lemming them to death. QT at least I can absolve since they did a self-interest vote.

Actually wait a hot minute. QT is still not voting. And he knows better. I said I would be down for a policy lynch. And I am.

[x] vote QTesseract

You've been around since I asked you to vote. You have no excuse except that you don't want to contribute your opinion for posterity.

Ondine Hopping onto QT...despite QT's earlier statement that they prob won't be posting much this day...

Okay let's try this again. I'm down for a policy lynch.

[x] Vote Qtesseract

A follow by Totadile...here's something interesting. Totadile also seems to be mimicking Ondines actions...are these two linked? Are Ondine-Shadell Linked. My theory: Ondine has a decent chance of being scum, this doesn't perefectly say anything for shadell, but in a !Scum Ondine world I'd say Totadile is scum too.

Yeah.
[X] Vote LostDeviljho
(Based on prior reasoning)

Except...what was that reasoning again? Please point it out.

[x] vote LostDeviljho
Survival

This ended the day and fairly so.

Three possibilities.
1) A Doctor protected the person who was going to be killed. If So Good Job.
2) Bulletproof was attempted to be killed, but was bulletproof. If so please speak up.
3) The least likely the mafia didn't attack anyone, likely due to a weakness they have.

So, the question becomes does it matter which one of these it was, and can it reveal something useful to us?

I don't like this, they didn't mention the potentail of dousing at all which makes me feel like they were painting what happened and shifting that fact away.

So, three possibilities in ascending order of desirability: Either scum used some ability that was incompatible with their normal night kill (probably meaning one of us got doused), or they hit a bulletproof townie, or the Doctor did a really nice job.

I am too tired to figure out if we have any clues pointing more to one possibility than the other. I am going to get some sleep.

If you're the doctor or bulletproof, obviously don't say anything. Let the scum keep guessing. Likewise, any Cop or Tracker should stay mum.

Point here to Meso since they mentioned the probability of Dousing.

My N1 peek was Totodile.

Not claiming. Might be true. Might be cop cover.

www.mafiauniverse.com

#2: Seers/Cops and Keeping Good Cover (by Yates)

Article #2: Seers/Cops and Keeping Good Cover - written by Yates “A secret's worth depends on the people from whom it must be kept.” ― Carlos Ruiz Zaf?n, “The Shadow of the Wind” http://i.imgur.com/7Qy6RLv.png This is a guide on understanding the basic principles of being a seer...

They mentioned this earlier but now I'm frankly seeing something else...

Also the whole cop cover thing only works if lots of people do it. If you are a cop say your real peek. If not, choose someone you don't see yourself having to argue to vote for ASAP cause lol kinda ruins the whole cover thing.

So like.. do it people.

*PRESENT HEAD FOR TOWN STICK THWACKING*

Actually no. Don't do it. Frankly I don't like this one bit. Your pressuring people to do it...but in doing so your basically asking people to reveal who they visited. All that gives is scum targeting info. Stop this...this is scummy and serves no purpose other than to confuse our last possible Watcher and possible tracker as well as give scum info.

I don't really share your point about the Watcher. Tbh given IIRC Nictis likes the social part of the game more than the mechanical AND the whole setup, we are playing mountaenous with extra rather than a power madness game. The Watcher for example can watch a target. Given he sees several visitors, he has a total of 12 possible roles (counting all mafia roles as separate). I mean the only roles that don't visit anyone are bulletproof and maybe the igniting part of arsonist (depends on the implementation I guess). All of this without considering drawbacks. So I wouldn't really consider Watcher reliable either.

Fake-Edit: Of course if he sees only one vistior and his target turns up dead the next day while not being grilled, that's in fact one of the more reliable roles.
And now I'm feeling like that whole text's kinda useless.

Yes...yes it is.

Frankly I'm getting a ton of red flags from Ondine that read scum and the most annoying thing about it all...they act as though they are certain a cop is in the game yet...the only ones who could be certain of that are A. If someone is the cop. And B. If your scum.

[X] Vote Ondine
 
Also I believe everyone has checked in now and we don't have any reports of a roleblock so...it's quite possible they didn't use it. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Right now we have-
No Reported attempts of Murder
No Reported attempts of Roleblock
No Reported douses(although it's highly possible the douse is silent going of previous experiences with delayed/triggered kills)
 
Maybe a blocked murder is not noticeable? Whereas from my outside mafia experiences dousing usually does not alert the victims as well so it's possible that the scums are going for arson route.
 
Please someone explain HOW LDJ was actually Info bleeding? It's actually annoying that so many people kept saying this...and gave no actual reasoning or pointed out what the bleed was...because IMO it didn't exist.
About that part, it's probably those posts in conjuncture.

For the record: I am Town, but if y'all are gonna Lynch town my utility is low enough you won't lose much.
Personally I'd prefer not to get lynched D1, but then that applies everyone so like... *shrugs*
That Being Said I do have a role that I do believe can be of some use maybe. Not definitely, but it's possible. My only positive asset to town is that role. As a result.... That's why I answered it that way. I don't know any of their roles. Since I don't truly believe any of them are scum, and they probably have more experience then me. I'd basically be better off dead then the other 3 so long as my belief none of them is scum was correct.
We don't know their drawback. However if it's as near-crippling as mine...
First we have LDJ kinda hinting at being of low importance early on. Then we have Tota claiming to be of high use and a bit later Lost coming around with his drawback again. I guess that stuff got somehwat mixed together.
 
All in all I liked most of your post. It read compelling. BUT, this part massively reads like TMI.
Ondine Hopping onto QT...despite QT's earlier statement that they prob won't be posting much this day...

You are not the first one to post something in that kind. We have Shadell as well way earlier.

Rather, regardless of how QT flips, we won't learn much or have much to go on in terms of other reads. I'd be down for it on D2+, but also, there's no real time to respond, and "I had a very bad week" is, like, a very reasonable reason not to post much.
It felt off when she posted it. But in this case you could read it as a possibility, explaing why QTess didn't post much till now.

I mean, you mentioned yourself earlier that QTess wasn't doing much. With no apparent reason. Yes, he's usually pretty quiet D1. But you could still expect a bit of stuff.
Second to Shadell I'd want to look at QT more...or at least see QT more. Pepehands.

But now you explain his absence with him stating he won't post much. As a fact.

The really funny thing is... QTess never mentioned anything like this. At all. Please go ahead, check his 8 posts total.

So where did he post that stuff? To clarify myself, I heavily suspect a Cyri/QTess team right now, possibly with Shadell in there as well.

[X] Vote Cyricubed
 
The really funny thing is... QTess never mentioned anything like this. At all. Please go ahead, check his 8 posts total.

This is a decent point actually if a bit of a stretch for me. Problem is I actually used shadell's post as my point there thinking QT actually had made a post of such. However this has an inherent issue with it and that's thinking QT wouldn't have pointed that out to shadell thus prompting me not to make the same exact mistake? I'm 2 games rusty yes but I'm not that incompetent to make that kind of mistake after someone else already did. You did however make me re-evaluate my read of Shadell so good catch regardless.

@Shadell any explanation for the above?
 
why would I need to explain the thing that is perfectly innocuous from me (inactivity lunches d1 are bad, people are very often inactive for good reason) but that you seemed to be making from privileged information?
 
Like, inactivity votes d1 cost us any info we'd gain on votes and are extremely easy to jump on with no real argument. They also cost us data on posting as no one has interacted with that person.

Additionally, mostly missing a single irl day is pretty plausible for any number of good reasons. Like, skipping posting more than the minimum for a week would be sus, but missing most of a day, maybe, warrants pressing someone, as I did with QT and iirc only Ondine backed, but doesn't justify a kill.

Deflecting hard on Tykan's point to killing someone else for it, while also offering a massive wall of, mostly extremely weak arguments targeting 1, a known decent strategy as somehow super pro-scum, and 2, the only players I know are scum. I dislike this intensely.


[x] vote Cyricubed
 
Like, inactivity votes d1 cost us any info we'd gain on votes and are extremely easy to jump on with no real argument. They also cost us data on posting as no one has interacted with that person.

Additionally, mostly missing a single irl day is pretty plausible for any number of good reasons. Like, skipping posting more than the minimum for a week would be sus, but missing most of a day, maybe, warrants pressing someone, as I did with QT and iirc only Ondine backed, but doesn't justify a kill.

Deflecting hard on Tykan's point to killing someone else for it, while also offering a massive wall of, mostly extremely weak arguments targeting 1, a known decent strategy as somehow super pro-scum, and 2, the only players I know are scum. I dislike this intensely.

It's not really deflecting. It's pointing out a counter argument. And this greatly sounds like your now defending Ondine and just skipped over the fact that he has repeatedly sheeped your pushes with totadile sheeping Ondine. It's a pattern and a consistant one throughout day 2 up until Ondine votes for QT on "Policy" for not voting. That's not a policy lynch, that's something else completely.

You say it's extremely weak arguments? Please explain how. You say it's super pro-scum? Really? Is it because I strongly doubt that given that it's a neutral strategy. To point: Terra's done it as town, I've done it as town, Nict has done it as town. When your pretty sure you see scum you go for it. You don't sit on your butt twiddling your thumbs otherwise town atrophies.

Don't give me some half-assed accusation of I'm deflecting, my arguments are weak, and super scummy without putting forth any effort to explain why or how. That is scummy.

The main problem here is you jumped on me again because of something I already pointed out: I used your post: Which on introspection is neutral and while not saying that QT said that, can be viewed as such. I viewed it as such and put it into my thoughtspace as though QT had said something of such.

Regardless I'm treading into OMGUS territory and needed to vent my annoyance at your push in response to my question when I just wanted to see what you'd say on the matter. I'm going back to who I do think is scum now.

[X] Vote Ondine
 
I literally said a page ago that I confirmed Ondine is town. Of course I'm not going to scumread ondine right after.

Note, you accuse me of making weak arguments, but then immediately back off instead of actually defending your positions.Like, you say I came after you for using my post, and then admit that reading the post as scummy was bad reasoning and call it neutral. Why on earth wouldn't someone call that out.

Like, Ondine linked to a wiki strategy with a good deal of justification. You declared it super scummy essentially without reason. I also know Ondine is town (or at least an claiming such in thread) so this holds up even less. Your response to the point that this strategy is known and isn't secretly scummy is to declare that other posters have done the same.
 
I literally said a page ago that I confirmed Ondine is town. Of course I'm not going to scumread ondine right after.

Note, you accuse me of making weak arguments, but then immediately back off instead of actually defending your positions.Like, you say I came after you for using my post, and then admit that reading the post as scummy was bad reasoning and call it neutral. Why on earth wouldn't someone call that out.

Like, Ondine linked to a wiki strategy with a good deal of justification. You declared it super scummy essentially without reason. I also know Ondine is town (or at least an claiming such in thread) so this holds up even less. Your response to the point that this strategy is known and isn't secretly scummy is to declare that other posters have done the same.

Great fucking job here. READ MY POST MAYBE A LITTLE.

Actually no. Don't do it. Frankly I don't like this one bit. Your pressuring people to do it...but in doing so your basically asking people to reveal who they visited. All that gives is scum targeting info. Stop this...this is scummy and serves no purpose other than to confuse our last possible Watcher and possible tracker as well as give scum info.

In addition now that your going to be this thickheaded about it...No. I think the strategy is crap. It asks everyone to pick someone that they will refuse to lynch the whole fucking Game. NOT TO MENTION THERE IS A LAWYER.

Like holy shit no. This strategy is crippling to town, unfun, and I'm not doing it on principle nor will I accept it. "Cop Cover" is pointless also when mafia can role-cop to find the cop and other useful targets and instead just chokes up the social part of the game on hypocrisies for the sake of covering one person in the game for their potential mechanical value that can be fooled. I repeat, no I will not eat the green eggs and Ham. If you think they're town: Put up some arguments and not arbitrary bullcrap for this "Cop Cover" sham.
 
Great fucking job here. READ MY POST MAYBE A LITTLE.



In addition now that your going to be this thickheaded about it...No. I think the strategy is crap. It asks everyone to pick someone that they will refuse to lynch the whole fucking Game. NOT TO MENTION THERE IS A LAWYER.

Like holy shit no. This strategy is crippling to town, unfun, and I'm not doing it on principle nor will I accept it. "Cop Cover" is pointless also when mafia can role-cop to find the cop and other useful targets and instead just chokes up the social part of the game on hypocrisies for the sake of covering one person in the game for their potential mechanical value that can be fooled. I repeat, no I will not eat the green eggs and Ham. If you think they're town: Put up some arguments and not arbitrary bullcrap for this "Cop Cover" sham.

This is maybe a bit more heated than I am comfortable with, but I agree that the "Cop Cover" probably isn't worth the candle.

Frankly, the Cop role is sort of crippled with the existence of a scum roleblocker and a lawyer and only 12 players. The small number of players means there isn't a lot of time to build up information before the Cop is nightkiller, lynched, or the game ends. The roleblocker means the Cop might simply miss a whole nights investigation and when they get through, they can't trust their results, and if they recheck someone the next night, they've waited maybe a third of the game to get a maybe probably accurate result on one player.

Similarly, the Tracker is just going to have to rely on luck, since virtually everyone is visiting people. If I visit somebody and then they are nightkilled, all it really says is I am not a doc or a bodyguard. The Watcher might have been more useful, since if they watched someone before they were nightkilled we could have a list of suspects. But the scum might not be using standard nightkills and the Watcher is dead.

Our informational abilities are very weak and the scum have a rolecop, so it is only a matter of time before they eliminate what remaining investigatives there are. Obviously they should still try to acquire as much usable data as they can, but we can't rely on them to provide us the answers. We need to do some social deduction. With some direction they might be able to do some confirmation investigations.

In another game, where there were more players, the cop was less likely to be fooled, and we didn't know there was a rolecop Cop Cover might be useful. But here I feel like it will just get in the way if everyone is trying to keep track of a bunch of false confirmations and people messing that up might just give away the cop (who is likely to actually be playing as if their results were accurate.)
 
EBWOP
Even worse, Cop might be one of the three town roles that aren't in play, in which case we'd really be wasting our time. There probably is one, but 1/4 is a significant chance. I'm hoping we rolled a bunch of protectives, given the scum set up.
 
If you'd read the article you would know you need two nights in a 9 player game to be 100% mechanically cleared. So at 12 we need 3? And yes I know a roleblocker and lawyer are possible, but they aren't going to be everywhere at once. And we aren't just talking about a cop here. We have tons of other roles that can clear in other ways too. This is going to be a mech heavy solve I think by the virtue of the fact that there's a lot to solve with.

The arguments here are hilariously overreaching and honestly boil down to --you're trying too hard to help town, you can't be town. I'll respond to your wallpost as soon as I can get on my computer, but my God. I would try another target today Cyricubed. I am going to tell you right now that I can and will claim and you will be forced to back off, but for town's sake I was hoping to wait.
 
In addition now that your going to be this thickheaded about it...No. I think the strategy is crap. It asks everyone to pick someone that they will refuse to lynch the whole fucking Game. NOT TO MENTION THERE IS A LAWYER.

ALL CAPS is not helpful, nor does it make the game fun. If you can't deal with someone disagreeing with you, maybe take a break from the thread for a bit?

Anyway, here you conflate the critique that a strategy is bad with one that it's scummy. Like, you're welcome to find something unfun, or think it won't work (and I noted doubts as to its efficacy here a page or two ago), but that doesn't make it scummy. You can say that it's crippling to town, but, bluntly, with a strategy that allows for safeish reveals of information (ostensibly from a cop, but realistically from anyone who fluffs their claims as a cop), town actually benefits some in such a power-loaded game. Additionally, when someone's started this, you need to join in providing cover for at least a bit or you're hurting town a lot more.

Information is always ignorable, and will be recontextualized later here. So this hardly hurts town. You're welcome to dislike it or find it unfun, but that hardly makes it scummy. And, like, getting performatively outraged that people dared disagree with you is hardly doing your arguments any favors. The point of the position isn't so you believe me when I say "ondine is town" but so if I flip later, you can figure "Shadell arbitrarily claimed ondine was town" as evidence later on, and if I flip fool or something, you can discard the info.

Pushing people to explain on that kind of reasoning is more or less asking them to claim, which is bad for obvious reasons.
 
If you'd read the article you would know you need two nights in a 9 player game to be 100% mechanically cleared. So at 12 we need 3? And yes I know a roleblocker and lawyer are possible, but they aren't going to be everywhere at once. And we aren't just talking about a cop here. We have tons of other roles that can clear in other ways too. This is going to be a mech heavy solve I think by the virtue of the fact that there's a lot to solve with.

The arguments here are hilariously overreaching and honestly boil down to --you're trying too hard to help town, you can't be town. I'll respond to your wallpost as soon as I can get on my computer, but my God. I would try another target today Cyricubed. I am going to tell you right now that I can and will claim and you will be forced to back off, but for town's sake I was hoping to wait.

Your arguments are misguided and ignoring what scum has on hand. That "Guide" has nothing on situations like this game.
 
No. Sorry fuck this. This way of thinking has ruined the game for me. Replace me, I'm done.
 
I am going to tell you right now that I can and will claim and you will be forced to back off, but for town's sake I was hoping to wait.
So this seems weird to me. I'm mostly on your side, as I acknowledge Shadell's better than me, and based on the article probably has a good reason for peeking you. However, this seems a bit like you're trying to get people to back off via like acting like 'I'll do it you guys! Ill roleclaim if u dont back off and thatll make you back off but i dont want to do it because i totez village hehe'. (Exaggerated for effect) But, as previously stated, my reads are shit, and I trust Shadell, so I'm not voting.
 
Also, note that if Odine does end up Mafia, they've probably posted a similar article in the Maf doc to explain how to counter this sort of strat. Just saying.
 
Fuck it. I was attacked last night and healed. That's my claim. I'm fucking town and I'm exhausted. And I feel like shit and I really was looking forward to this game. And it's mech heavy and I like puzzles and you should use mech to solve a mech heavy game. That's part of the fun. And I don't know what else to say. If you're the doc who healed me, don't say anything, you're super important, don't out yourself.
 
Also, note that if Odine does end up Mafia, they've probably posted a similar article in the Maf doc to explain how to counter this sort of strat. Just saying.
On that forum in the same section are a number of articles on mafia theory and gameplay. Both how to play as town and as scum. They're very enlightening and helpful. Not perfect, by any means, but I would give them a chance if you have some time.
 
So, Umm I hope we can all calm down, and remember this is just a game. We are doing this because it's fun. I hope everyone can find enjoyment in this game again. If there's anything I can do to help please say so.
 
If anyone would like to act as a replacement DM me. If nobody is found by Day's end then Cyricubed will be modkilled.
 
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