A Simple Transaction I

[X] Vendetta
-[X] Remittance: The Sword
[X] Accretion

I was considering switching to Dreaming, but it seems that's a lost cause now. Praxis and/or death!

Let's talk magic synergies.

• Mask demands Accretion, since needing to fight at our full power is a forgone conclusion from a meta perspective. It's the only system where you don't need to fight terribly smart to get something out of it.
• Vendetta/King's is a crapshoot since we don't now what our remittance options are. Battle Magic is still probably a bad choice for a progression type, cool as dnd ultra-RAW magic is, due to a lack of conceptual power.
• Vendetta/Sword is the most interesting here. Ideally we want to get healing/restoration, but both Seals and Accretion accomplish this to some extent. Synergy-wise, Accretion's fluff lines up with Praxis deriving power solely from the self, which might let us spend Praxis-power to buff it directly or let us burn our legend for power. Seals has a much simpler interaction in storing and combning our Praxis spells

[X] Vendetta
-[X] Remittance: The King's
[X] Accretion

Thanks for the heads up!

Anyway, I have a soft spot for legendary weapons and stuff like that, so, accretion it is!

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[X] Vendetta
-[X] Remittance: The King's
[X] Dread but Dreaming
-[X] Keep the Plenary Brand

[X] Accretion

One of the examples of a Lesser Wish is 'time travel'
One fourth of Regalia's power is 100 years time reversal, limited in that it can't undo back before you're a Cursebearer.
We can use Lesser Wish to replicate weaker versions of the other option's total capabilities.

Assuming the 'no travel to before you're a Cursebearer' is the sticking point so we can't game the system and just pop back before our tragic backstory and win forever, New Game Plusing things could be a valid rechargable Lesser Wish option. No need to burn later wishes on bringing back family after the first time like some have feared, kill three birds with one stone by winding back before they were killed and proactively taking out the threat to them while also greatly profiting from the future knowledge gleaned. There's large differences due to the expected usage time nature of these things of course, but imagine Seram from the original Simple Transaction, instead of playing catch up rezzing people, exploiting the fact that he knew he shouldn't kill Nullification Witch, knew where that elf's amulet was without spending a choice, didn't let the sister of the girl who turned out to be a 5th tier in a world ruled by 4ths die and blame him in the first place, etc.

It keeps happening ugh.(Edit for clarity since I deleted my earlier post, previous tally didn't include lingering votes made before the magic system update, also I am awkward with the tally system and keep inserting tallies as their own post when I mean to put them in existing posts. This tally includes lingering earlier votes.)

Koden said:

[X] The Forsaken Mask
[X] Battle Mastery

The no collateral damage means we can fight seriuosly wherever we are for longer lowering the need to go berserk and the extra applications via lateral thinking provides some fun.

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A salient point! High power levels are much more manageable and convenient with a "no collateral damage" effect. It's a rare power that allows you to do so perfectly...

Unelemental said:

[X] Vendetta
-[X] Remittance: The King's
[X] Accretion

Still interested in Progression and Vengeance, but not feeling like playing a plainly suicidal character - and dying swiftly.

And Accretion... I'll confess that purely conceptual systems - and especially ones drawing on legends and myths to empower oneself - are some of my favorites. The Hero has such a rich story to make armaments of and will find more other worlds besides, so I'm curious how far he can take this.

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I wonder how a Thrice-Great with this set of magic systems would fare... Battle Magic combined with Soul Evocation could have any number of interactions, with Accretion to amplify and broaden one's signature techniques. But it lacks the true engine of Cultivation to give raw scale to the whole thing, and none of the systems is as efficient or versatile as Cultivation + Artifice. That said, a high level Accretion user would probably fare better than most against strong Cultivators, unless those Cultivators happened to be named Yong Shen - or worse, to have lacked a name at all!

Rihaku said:

[ ] Battle Mastery

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It's a fun idea. You could have a story full of clever and silly magics, like a beach episode where the hero summons ice golems and then shatters them to get ice cubes for his chilled drinks. But the tone of this story has already been set to some extent, and murdering people using magic that's at least partially a parody of things like DnD makes the story feel less authentic.

This is the sort of magic you pick up in act 2, after the hero has found some sort of stability and the readers are fully invested enough that the meta commentary on other game systems doesn't pull them out of the story. Not act one, when all the wounds are still raw and bleeding.

Rihaku said:

[ ] Seven Seals

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My first thought was that this reminds me of the magic in "The Emperor's Soul", which also features seals altering the fundamental properties, but it's a little different. With Forging, you rewrite an object's history in order to change its present. With Sealing, you convert an object into the form of a seal, at which point it's portable, non-lethal, and more amendable to editing.

Some cool things that might be possible someday:
-Skill-theft. Find a master of some skill. Turn them into a seal. Isolate their skill as a seal ("Seal of Transcendent Swordsmanship" or "Seal of Underwater Basket-weaving"). Apply that seal to yourself.
-Find a sword or razor or something. Seal the idea of sharpness. Attach that seal to an empty hilt, such that you wield not a sword but Edge itself.
-Seal away your pain and the ache of loss. Let nothing distract you from your revenge.
-Seal away your heart, seal away your death itself, like a lich.
-Show Baenlixnaire how it's done.

Rihaku said:

[ ] Accretion

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This is really cool but it's too late, I've already fallen in love with the seals.

...

[X] Seven Seals
[X] Balance

If we gain world travel power then we go to garden of enoch and become student or something to learn more magic .

[X] Seven Seals
[X] Balance

Rihaku said:

That said, a high level Accretion user would probably fare better than most against strong Cultivators, unless those Cultivators happened to be named Yong Shen

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Yeah, the Heavy Counter tends to be like that.

Rihaku said:

- or worse, to have lacked a name at all!

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Definitely. While high-level Accretion is formidable as it reaches the level of a Mastered Ring, Nameless does have a Mastered Ring of his own anyway, ignoring the other abilities he has as being the matured form of the Thrice-Great.

[X] The Forsaken Mask
[X] Battle Mastery

Almost missed the chance to vote for this. Probably a lot cause since I don't have the time or energy to campaign (or hit the omake mines)

Rihaku said:

That said, a high level Accretion user would probably fare better than most against strong Cultivators, unless those Cultivators happened to be named Yong Shen - or worse, to have lacked a name at all!

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Wow, that is some really high praise, I though Accretion was leading!

Rihaku said:

A salient point! High power levels are much more manageable and convenient with a "no collateral damage" effect. It's a rare power that allows you to do so perfectly...

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Kind of hard to see that if Mask makes us a beserker quite happy to target and destroy anything in his way, involvement or no...

Also, isn't Lateral Thinking kind of hard if we are the Hulk?

Rozencrantz said:

Mask demands Accretion, since needing to fight at our full power is a forgone conclusion from a meta perspective. It's the only system where you don't need to fight terribly smart to get something out of it.

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Mm, Battle Magic is actually even better in that case, since it has plenty of defensive shells and massive aoes that also don't damage the environment. You'd still count all civilians as your enemies while berserk, so it's not a perfect solution, but there at least won't be shockwaves of superheated plasma roiling over the continent.

Rozencrantz said:

Ideally we want to get healing/restoration, but both Seals and Accretion accomplish this to some extent.

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Battle Magic is actually the most reliable healer of the three! It lets you directly restore the physical health of the target with only a few exceptions!

Enohthree said:

One of the examples of a Lesser Wish is 'time travel'
One fourth of Regalia's power is 100 years time reversal, limited in that it can't undo back before you're a Cursebearer.
We can use Lesser Wish to replicate weaker versions of the other option's total capabilities.

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The Regalia's / NG+ time travel 'trumps' a Lesser Wish's, which is relevant in Cursebearer vs Cursebearer matchups.

Enohthree said:

There's large differences due to the expected usage time nature of these things of course, but imagine Seram from the original Simple Transaction, instead of playing catch up rezzing people, exploiting the fact that he knew he shouldn't kill Nullification Witch, knew where that elf's amulet was without spending a choice, didn't let the sister of the girl who turned out to be a 5th tier in a world ruled by 4ths die and blame him in the first place, etc.

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Yup, Regalia is really good! Just imagine, the power to undo every bad decision you make in the course of this quest and sketch out an optimal route! With the power of timeskips and training montages, you won't even have to personally experience the tedium of re-doing it all!!

This is an almost immeasurable benefit. You can literally go back and do the optimal thing.

Vote Balance today!

vali said:

This is really cool but it's too late, I've already fallen in love with the seals.

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Seals are cool.

skaro said:

If we gain world travel power then we go to garden of enoch and become student or something to learn more magic .

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You'd want to learn magic from that guy!? You can pick up the Ordinal Spiral elsewhere.

[X] Balance
[X] Seven Seal
The blurb on Balance makes it sound unpretentious, which I like a lot.
Going for Baten Kaitos magic with the other hand.

Rihaku said:

That said, a high level Accretion user would probably fare better than most against strong Cultivators, unless those Cultivators happened to be named Yong Shen - or worse, to have lacked a name at all!

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Interesting. I'd have expected Dao Cleaving to make that difficult, with their whole thing being the metaphysical weight of another Universe. Is Accretion ineffective across trans-Universal boundaries, or are Dao not considered a part of the person for other reasons?

Rihaku said:

The Regalia's / NG+ time travel 'trumps' a Lesser Wish's, which is relevant in Cursebearer vs Cursebearer matchups.

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So outside of those match ups, it would be an alright substitute? Because from my perspective Wish recharges and Regalia's better but a one shot.

Box Lunch said:

Interesting. I'd have expected Dao Cleaving to make that difficult, with their whole thing being the metaphysical weight of another Universe. Is Accretion ineffective across trans-Universal boundaries, or are Dao not considered a part of the person for other reasons?

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Nah, remember the tiers of power system. The low levels of Cultivation only provide purely mundane tier 1 power, which is trumped by tier 2 conceptual power. This is why Accretion can treat a tank shell and a supernova as more or less the same thing. The Counters deal with that by letting tier 1 power contest tier 2 power directly. The Nameless meanwhile has probably transcended mundane power entirely, has the Ring and a bunch of other ridiculous bullshit. Not to mention he could destroy the Hero's entire setting by breathing too hard.

Rihaku said:

Mm, Battle Magic is actually even better in that case, since it has plenty of defensive shells and massive aoes that also don't damage the environment. You'd still count all civilians as your enemies while berserk, so it's not a perfect solution, but there at least won't be shockwaves of superheated plasma roiling over the continent.


Battle Magic is actually the most reliable healer of the three! It lets you directly restore the physical health of the target with only a few exceptions!

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Some questions:
How good is our initial healing with battle magic?

Leaving aside any synergies/external powers, how much control do we have over Accretion's development? Are we stuck with a primarily defensive one, or can we respec into restoration?

How much capacity for tactical thought does Lunacy leave us? Are we smart, but compelled to maximize destruction, or full rip and tear mindless bezerker?

Given that the thread is gunning towards Accretion, and looking ahead at the example Lesser Remittances we would get, I've really got to recommend picking up the Ring of Hunger. Just think about it: The Ring massively multiplies all experience earned in battle, which is then partially fed via Accretion into the Ring, thus strengthening it and increasing the EXP multiplier for the next fight, which would then feed more EXP into Accretion, which loops back to strengthen the Ring of Hunger...

Basically, with Accretion + Ring of Hunger, we not only massively improve our self through winning fights, we improve the way we improve our self every fight.

Also, I've got to once again argue for choosing Vengeance+Sword. This is our best chance to get the Praxis, as our character is super thematically suited to it, and the best chance to take massive risks in exchange for rewards is at the start of a Quest, before we form an emotional attachment to the character/setting. If we're not willing to explore the very depths of the Praxis now, with a character that's extremely suited for it, when would be the best time? We've gotta take some risks if we want to get returns, both IC and OOC. Are you willing to go Even Further Beyond?

Conjured Blade said:

What do you think Moloch does(Meditations On Moloch)? Whether or not it has some Rihakuverse source we can find and punch in the face, it's still using people to feed it sacrifices, and we can still help people fight it.

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The Vendetta vote is running off blatant Moloch-worship in a way that's really disturbing. Like, you could make all sorts of meta arguments for Vengeance - if not for Indenture (which I still have massive issues with but which I know is a playstyle some people enjoy reading about), I'd have considered voting Vengeance for the story it tells, even though IC it's clearly the wrong choice. But instead we've got the claim that all-sacrificing escalation that literally destroys the world you're in, for the sake of hate, is somehow the "selfless" option.

I mean, the general addiction to making a contextless number going up is common enough. But the number isn't going up yet, doesn't even exist yet, and its ultimate pointlessness has already made clear... and yet it's being used as the thing being argued for.

[X] Balance
[X] Battle Mastery

I'm happy Balance seems to be emerging as a viable option. Go team Balance!

Battle Mastery honestly sounds really powerful and versatile, even if it lacks the conceptual weight of Accretion.

Enohthree said:

So outside of those match ups, it would be an alright substitute? Because from my perspective Wish recharges and Regalia's better but a one shot.

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The Regalia is absolute pretty much, Lesser Wish has somewhat more metaphysical potency than the Cursebearer asking. Could be relevant against ultra high tier time manipulation or those who would conventionally be immune to time travel. Regalia beats acausality, entities from outside the timestream, entities immune to retroactive deletion, etc.

runeblue360 said:

Nah, remember the tiers of power system. The low levels of Cultivation only provide purely mundane tier 1 power, which is trumped by tier 2 conceptual power. This is why Accretion can treat a tank shell and a supernova as more or less the same thing. The Counters deal with that by letting tier 1 power contest tier 2 power directly while the Nameless would blow right past it with the Ring and has probably transcended mundane power in his own right besides.

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They're more like a series of partially overlapping gradients rather than strict tiers, but conceptual weight is typically more valuable / takes priority over interactions within baseline physics, yeah.

Rozencrantz said:

Some questions:
How good is our initial healing with battle magic?

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Depends on what you pick.

King's Scepter with Battle Magic Remittance: Trivially heal civilians to full unless they have damage to an excepted area, heal those of equivalent power to full with a decent expenditure of MP. Can't heal amputations and a few other types of wounds / illnesses.

Combat-Type Cursebearer: A single spell of regeneration suffices to shrug off 1,000 Tsar Bombas every second. Still can't heal amputations and a few other types of wounds / illnesses.

Leaving aside any synergies/external powers, how much control do we have over Accretion's development? Are we stuck with a primarily defensive one, or can we respec into restoration?

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One of Accretion's main weaknesses is lack of control. You'll get something fitting your thematics and the story you tell yourself / people tell about you. On the other hand, fewer build votes. But you're not allowed to complain if you don't like what you get - you chose this, after all!

How much capacity for tactical thought does Lunacy leave us? Are we smart, but compelled to maximize destruction, or full rip and tear mindless bezerker?

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The latter.

ImperatorV said:

[X] Balance
[X] Battle Mastery

I'm happy Balance seems to be emerging as a viable option. Go team Balance!

Battle Mastery honestly sounds really powerful and versatile, even if it lacks the conceptual weight of Accretion.

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Balance best option.

Balance, hmm. It seems almost too perfect. The humanity of Freedom combined with the Progression of Vengeance.

Rihaku said:

One of Accretion's main weaknesses is lack of control. You'll get something fitting your thematics and the story you tell yourself / people tell about you. On the other hand, fewer build votes. But you're not allowed to complain if you don't like what you get - you chose this, after all!

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I'm getting flashbacks to that fucking Extrusion again. Please,vote Seals!

[X]Vendetta
-[X] Remittance: The Sword
[X] Seven Seal

I'll be honest, the way you were talking about, a 50-50 (with some rather high levels of under/over) shot at actually surviving the first few updates is much better odds than what you were at first suggesting. So I'll keep supporting the chance to actually fully explore the Praxis.

And sealing sound really interesting. What kinds of things would the hero start out being able to seal? What kinds of things are valid categories, outside of fire, stone, and self? It sounds like this magic can lead to some really fun potential for exploits and creative idea gathering.