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A Little Trouble in Big China - A Chinese Warlord Quest

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Mortenkam said:
@VoidZero @ZealousThoughts
How do you guys think that we should handel this new rebellions?
Also, what do you think that we should focus on as Qing, now that we do not have a land border with H-KMT?
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Interesting development, but rather hard for me to do anything since close hostility is not making anything easier.
The Sandman said:
Plan Black Flag
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Can you make the points a bit more condensed? And a bit clearer on the goal of each point?
 
Well Jehol is attacking Wu? Well he can happily do that be declared traitor is he wishes as the capital is right near our mutual border.

As I said before, threatening civil war if you dont get your way is not going to make Wu back down. And as your way was a monopoly on all industry and war armaments I wont be accepting it.
 
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Dadarian said:
Qing China:

Duan Qirui: Han General, and disgraced member of the Imperial Court.
Ma Fuxiang: Hui Warlord, Leader of the Ma Clique. Noted reactionary.
Wu Peifu: Han General, Leader of the Greater Zhili Clique, Marshal of the Qing, Admiral of the Beiyang Navy. Powerful member of the Imperial Court.
Zhang Xun: Han General, Leader of the Manchu Restoration Movement, member of the Imperial Court. Lord of the Privy Seal.
Prince Chun: Manchu Prince, father of the Qing Emperor. Prime Minister of the Qing.
Xu Shichang: Han statesman, propaganda minister.
Zhang Xueliang: Han General, the Young Marshal, Leader of the Jehol Clique, Special Plenipotentiary of Industry. Powerful member of the Imperial Court.
Chen Kwing Ming: Han Politician, Former Governor of Canton.
Xinjiang Triumvirate: Han Politician, Han Politician, and a Hui General. They all really don't like each other, but hate communists more.
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@BurningLaugh
If you want to make a plan for another character than Prince Chun, then I would suggest either Zhang Xun or perhaps especially Xu Schichang, since it seems like a interesting idea to play as a propaganda minister.

Also, @VoidZero and @ZealousThoughts, it seems like we are at it again.
VoidZero said:
Peace or war, that is the question. Anyway the play is a draft, its up to the fellow players to decide how the next chapter begins.

[D] Zhang Xueliang
-[Option 1] Peace
--[] More soldiers through recruitment campaign. Cite good salary and benefits.
--[] Invest in enclaves infrastructures, build tall then wide.
--[] Expand the college(s), add medical branch with foreign hires.
--[] Encourage the industrialists to invest in the factories and produce more advance products. Radios, trains, and trucks will have very high demand.
--[] Roll out the procured and produced equipment to the military. More machine guns, field cannons, and radios.
--[] ???
-[Option 2] War
--[] More soldiers through drafting. Cite good salary through obedience.
--[] Launch attack against Wu and create a front.
--[] Dig trenches
--[] Propaganda campaign against Wu's leveraging of taxes. Launch flurries of letters to merchants industrialists about Wu's confiscation of private assets.
--[] Send out messages to various Qing-aligned leaders about standing against Wu, the person wishing to make himself a king. Suggest to them the risk of having their army being dwarfed by Wu.
--[] Fortifying the clique controlled area, the connection between enclaves comes first.
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@VoidZero
I understand why you are thinking about it, but can you please be less antagonizing, until you have actually decided what you want to do?
ZealousThoughts said:
Well Jehol is attacking Wu? Well he can happily do that be declared traitor is he wishes as the capital is right near our mutual border.

As I said before, threatening civil war if you dont get your way is not going to make Wu back down. And as your way was a monopoly on all industry and war armaments I wont be accepting it.
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@ZealousThoughts
I am going to be honest and say, that as far as I can tell Zhang Xueliang and the Jehol Clique has never been in a position to get themselves a monopoly on all industry and war armaments in the whole empire of Qing.

They have at most tried to get a dominating position in those area, which would disappear as Qing is getting industrialized, so if it is that is your/Wu's problem with Zhang Xueliang and the Jehol Clique, then there is no reason to make them into a enemy.

@VoidZero @ZealousThoughts
I would prefer that you settled this beef you have going on, rather than you two ending in a fight, so what do you say? Should we not rather focus on the enemies of the emperor?
 
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Mortenkam said:
I am going to be honest and say, that as far as I can tell Zhang Xueliang and the Jehol Clique has never been in a position to get themselves a monopoly on all industry and war armaments in the whole empire of Qing.

They have at most tried to get a dominating position in those area, which would disappear as Qing is getting industrialized, so if it is that is your/Wu's problem with Zhang Xueliang and the Jehol Clique, then there is no reason to make them into a enemy.
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This might be true if he hadnt just been put in charge of all industry in the Empire, and industrialising a very small region of the Empire right on the border with Japan far away from most industrial resources.
 
ZealousThoughts said:
This might be true if he hadnt just been put in charge of all industry in the Empire, and industrialising a very small region of the Empire right on the border with Japan far away from most industrial resources.
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You have a point in the sense that Zhang Xueliang as the Special Plenipotentiary of Industry ought to not just focus on industrializing the land he controls himself, but calling that a monopoly is still a exaggeration, since he would have to close all the other factories in Qing to get that, which he obviously would not be allowed to do.
 
Mortenkam said:
You have a point in the sense that Zhang Xueliang as the Special Plenipotentiary of Industry ought to not just focus on industrializing the land he controls himself, but calling that a monopoly is still a exaggeration, since he would have to close all the other factories in Qing to get that, which he obviously would not be allowed to do.
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Indeed he would not.

However he has been consistently trying to horde all industry, weapons and foreign help to himself and starve the rest of China as much as possible.

Even my actions do not advantage only Wu but instead everyone but the Jehol Clique.

Should Zhang stop consistently trying to advance himself and his small sliver of China to the detriment of the rest of China. Such as the regions with the population concentration, resource concentration and infrastructure needed to indutrialise effectively, namely central and northern China below the Great Wall. Then there would be little conflict.

I consistently have stated publicly and privately that I would compromise if he relinquishes his demand to be paramount in everything. As he refused and demanded otherwise I passively protested and acted to limit the damage of his actions.
 
[X] Du "Big-Eared Du" Yuesheng: Han mob boss who has a controlling interest in Zhuhai and worked with elements of the Republicans. Ties with elements of the Chinese Revolutionary Party (Kemingtang).

1) Send an official protest to the new Portuguese Government regarding the Zhuhai Tong's designation as a crime syndicate and explain (bullshit) that the Zhuhai Tong is a paramilitary, ethnic based and politically conservative multi-stakeholder cooperative dedicated to prosperity via Benevolent Capitalism and that all the slanders about crime historically come from Chinese Governments that were too radical in their pursuit of centralization and crime syndicates believing the Government designations and calling themselves Tong too. Along with the official protest also send the Portuguese Language books written by Du Yuesheng to the Portuguese government with messages explaining that the books should hopefully serve as an explanation of what Benevolent Capitalism is, that it is hoped that the new Portuguese government may take inspiration regarding economic policies from the books, official inquiries on how to legally register the Zhuhai Tong as a cooperative in Macao, and a request for a list of Chinese speaking Portuguese that the new leadership of Portugal personally know as friends or acquaintances to spell check and grammar check the Portuguese language books for a fee to be paid by Du Yuesheng.

2) Pay bookstores in Hong Kong to display and sell your Chinese language books, pay British teachers to spell check and grammar check the English language books, and depending on the result either reprint the books or display and sell the English language books alongside the Chinese language books, so the idea of Benevolent Capitalism could spread.

3) Expand the membership of the Tong to the following places (Shangchuan Island, Xiachuan Island, the inhabited islands of the Wanshan Archipelago, Weizhou Island, and Hainan Island) by constructing clinics, fish farms, salterns, public urinals with Tong advertising (all said places), another branch of the Zhuhai Black Powder Hunting Gun Workshop (with attached mercury fulminate production facility), the Zhuhai Fireworks Company, the Clean World Recycling Facility, the Zhuhai Recycled Paper factory, and a brothel in Hainan's capital Haikou, a brand new business to be constructed on one of the larger uninhabited islands of the Wanshan Archipelago called the Zhuhai Urine Derived Products Company, which will create liquid fertilizer, urea and urea nitrate from urine in the public urinals, a brand new cooperative called the Southern Seas boatyard cooperative to rationally organize all existing boatyards in Tong territory and to streamline repairs and production of junks and boats, seaweed farms in all established Tong coastal communities like Zhuhai, and offering Tong membership to the fishermen, street and market stall vendors and family store owners in all said areas.





4) Tell the Taiwan Branch of the Zhuhai Tong to continue expanding in Taiwan as they see fit as long as it is hidden from the Japanese with the eventual goal of controlling the island from the shadows.

5) Continue with the paramilitary training of all Tong members with Zhuhai Boar Hunting Rifles and the knife fighting lessons, under the supervision of the Du Yuesheng Personal Guard. Also increase the numbers of the Du Yuesheng Personal Guard, as well as buying Howell Rifles from the H-KMT at twice the price of their production for said new members of the Du Yuesheng Personal Guard. And finally search for firework rockets experts and books from abroad to solve the military gunpowder rocket problem.

6) Attempt to reconnect and fix the Tong spy network in Qing controlled China and Manchuria. And from this point onwards start sharing information from Taiwan, Qing China and Manchuria and only political information about H-KMT territory with Chiang Kai Shek and best rifle customer Cai Yunpei.

@Dadarian, what happened with the two foreign military officers that used to train the Du Personal Guard. Did they go to Zhuhai?

Also, what do you mean by this? "sharpshooters soon developed a special place in Hell for the K-KMT rank-and-file, as priorly safe hills and forests soon turned into stressful pot-shot central."

Are you saying that the K-KMT hates the sharpshooters because they are effective even with the Zhuhai Boar Hunting Rifles? Or are you saying that the sharpshooters gained a lot of headaches because their rifles are revealing them because of the smoke?

Also, what is the opinion among the K-KMT about the Zhuhai Boar Hunting Rifles? And their opinion of the Tong for selling these to anyone who wanted to buy?

And to anyone else, wanna collaborate!?

Vote Du Yuesheng! Yes, DU YUE SHENG!
 
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@kilopi505, I don't remember at this moment and will be heading to work rather shortly. If you look back I'm pretty sure I already answered the question. Plus you don't need to wait on me to give you an answer.

Regarding the passage on the boat rifles, it's actually both interpretations. And you'll have to ask those in the K-KMT how they feel.
 
ZealousThoughts said:
Indeed he would not.

However he has been consistently trying to horde all industry, weapons and foreign help to himself and starve the rest of China as much as possible.

Even my actions do not advantage only Wu but instead everyone but the Jehol Clique.

Should Zhang stop consistently trying to advance himself and his small sliver of China to the detriment of the rest of China. Such as the regions with the population concentration, resource concentration and infrastructure needed to indutrialise effectively, namely central and northern China below the Great Wall. Then there would be little conflict.

I consistently have stated publicly and privately that I would compromise if he relinquishes his demand to be paramount in everything. As he refused and demanded otherwise I passively protested and acted to limit the damage of his actions.
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I am unsure of how the tariff helps Qing as a whole, since as I understand it the money goes to the Zhili Clique, not the central government, but if you/Wu can at least keep the peace with Zhang Xueliang, then I would be happy.

@ZealousThoughts @VoidZero
May I suggest that in return for lifting the traiff on the Jehol Clique, than Zhang Xueliang use a action on setting up industry in the area belonging to the Zhili Clique or perhaps somewhere else in Qing?

Also, what do you think we should do about this new rebellion that is happening?
 
Dadarian said:
@kilopi505, I don't remember at this moment and will be heading to work rather shortly. If you look back I'm pretty sure I already answered the question. Plus you don't need to wait on me to give you an answer.
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I checked. No, you didn't answer the question, I didn't even raise the question before now and after I made my plan and there's no indication that the two foreigners went to Zhuhai in the posts themselves.

Ok. Other people, wanna collaborate with the Tong?!

WANNA WORK TOGETHER!?
 
The Sandman said:
A way to escape China when the revolution liberates it from your assortment of reactionary scum? :tongue:
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- Said by the greatest kind of reactionary, a man which wish to return the world to its natural status of chaos and anarchy. :tongue:

Dadarian said:
Meanwhile in the Qing Empire, life seemed to actually improve (to the shock of international and domestic observers). Beyond the wars, civic disruption, threats on all sides, and court intrigues, life in the country for the most part stabilized. Crops came in with only the standard tithes, taxes, and thefts, and children could even go to school (instead of being conscripted literally or figuratively to one of the many factories in the cities). Anti-leftist propaganda was everywhere, but that was to be expected. The villages even had entertainment, as CPC/H-KMT monks and Qing monks would scream bloody murder at each other, justifying the actions of both parties before a rather festive village. The food which left these farms would go to the growing Qing armies, and both Prince Chun and Marshal-Admiral Wu were more than pleased to take in the respondent prestige from this success.
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@Dadarian
Since you metions children going to schools, how does the education situation in Qing look like?

Also, in what quality is the Qing's infrastructure and logistical support system to the western part of China?
 
@ZealousThoughts @Mortenkam

Had i not tried my best to work with all of Qing last turn? Look at the 2 actions that didn't leave anyone out! What more do you want! Dissolve my army and die?

Liaising within Qing command to make bulk import of German arms for Qing forces/Cliques willing to pay (Jehol military will be paying for what it needs, work with German advisors). Also offer Fengtian National Industrial Company arms and ammo at competitive rates to Qing forces/Cliques.
Invite Emperor, court, cliques, business/industry, and foreign-advisors-in-China to tour Jehol. Both to foster excellent working relationship with everyone as well as offering Jehol industrial goods and education. Personally tour the army with Emperor and Prime Minister if they wish. (Xu Shichang will coordinate this tour. He will be presented in very good light.)
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Mortenkam said:
- Said by the greatest kind of reactionary, a man which wish to return the world to its natural status of chaos and anarchy. :tongue:
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Anarchism is not about creating a world without rules.

Anarchism is about creating a world without rulers.

A distinction often lost on said rulers, I'll admit. But I assure you the ruled can tell the difference.
 
ZealousThoughts said:
Indeed he would not.

However he has been consistently trying to horde all industry, weapons and foreign help to himself and starve the rest of China as much as possible.

Even my actions do not advantage only Wu but instead everyone but the Jehol Clique.

Should Zhang stop consistently trying to advance himself and his small sliver of China to the detriment of the rest of China. Such as the regions with the population concentration, resource concentration and infrastructure needed to indutrialise effectively, namely central and northern China below the Great Wall. Then there would be little conflict.

I consistently have stated publicly and privately that I would compromise if he relinquishes his demand to be paramount in everything. As he refused and demanded otherwise I passively protested and acted to limit the damage of his actions.
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Do you have a plan to keep up the tariffs, drop them like with Mortenkam's compromise, cut Zhang off entirely or something else with this policy in mind? I assume that your plans are dependent on which one VoidZero goes with, so of course that may be subject to change/you may not be willing to show your hand yet. I'm curious, of course.
 
The Sandman said:
Anarchism is not about creating a world without rules.

Anarchism is about creating a world without rulers.

A distinction often lost on said rulers, I'll admit. But I assure you the ruled can tell the difference.
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...it might have still been possible if the world population is drastically smaller than 7 billion plus. But now...

Any implementation of anarchism on anything bigger than the village level could crash the population just through starvation. I don't think any other faction can even contemplate letting Anarchism be practiced on anything bigger than a village if only out of self preservation via not starving to death.
 
kilopi505 said:
...it might have still been possible if the world population is drastically smaller than 7 billion plus. But now...

Any implementation of anarchism on anything bigger than the village level could crash the population just through starvation. I don't think any other faction can even contemplate letting Anarchism be practiced on anything bigger than a village if only out of self preservation via not starving to death.
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... It's literally existed on far larger scales than that. Like the Free Territory, Revolutionary Spain, the Guangdong Commune...

Not to say that anarchism and international, global trade would have in interesting relationship which I'm not sure how it would work, but a whole country can be anarchist economically easily, without starvation or anything.
 
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DanBaque said:
... It's literally existed on far larger scales than that. Like the Free Territory, Revolutionary Spain, the Guangdong Commune...

Not to say that anarchism and international, global trade would have in interesting relationship which I'm not sure how it would work, but a whole country can be anarchist economically easily, without starvation or anything.
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What happens when particular communes hate each other due to any kind of reason? Like say...a Manchester commune and a Liverpool commune's relationship with each other?
 
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kilopi505 said:
What happens when particular communes hate each other due to reasons? Like say...a Manchester commune and a Liverpool commene's relationship with each other?
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Well, the answer would be that the elected federal, overarching government would step in if necessary (like, if it's getting to be open war, battles or suchlike). Otherwise, well, it's up to the people there? If they for some reason decide democratically that this other commune has wronged them and denies them trade or whatever, that'd be their legal right (and ofc, the overarching government would step in if necessary- say, if there's an epidemic in one of them and the other won't send aid, causing more deaths).
Communes and local government would undoubtedly have much more power than in other sorts of government, but that doesn't mean that there isn't an overarching one that's still considered democratic- and that one would be able to coordinate if necessary.
 
kilopi505 said:
3) Expand the membership of the Tong to the following places (Shangchuan Island, Xiachuan Island, the inhabited islands of the Wanshan Archipelago, Weizhou Island, and Hainan Island) by constructing clinics and salterns in all said places and another branch of the Zhuhai Black Powder Hunting Gun Workshop (which also includes a mercury fulminate production facility at this point in time), the Zhuhai Fireworks Company, the Clean World Recycling Facility, the Zhuhai Recycled Paper factory, and a brothel in Hainan's capital Haikou and offering Tong membership to the fishermen, street and market stall vendors and family store owners in all said areas, which includes knife fighting classes.
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May want to bribe local officials, gang banger usually want to be on the good side of local power. Especially when you have assets that can't be moved easily.

kilopi505 said:
WANNA WORK TOGETHER!?
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Tong and Zongchang might be able to help each other out, since smuggling people and stuff is a way to gain hidden leverages. Tho both parties solely lack boat capacity makes that a bit more difficult.

@DanBaque Figured out how you plan to survive the onslaught yet? Scorched earth might buy sometime seeing the other KMT armies falling into the usual 0% organization state. I would watch out for coastal invasion since that happened up north, naval guns are no joke.
 
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