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From Stone to the Stars

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Ghostdevil said:
Our current System is NOT fine. We have to change, it was presented in this update as bad. Aeva's dead and the system is failing due to inefficiencies and such. There is a reason why were voting on this ya know?
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These were the issues presented in the update:

" The problem was, no one was able to fill those shoes. Every attempted leader simply lacked the necessary draw to bull most of the settlement's population into following them."
"They seemed to lack some... quality that a leader needed to have. Kaspar-In-Flesh had it and his daughter, Aeva, had it as well"
"
There was only one Priit could possibly see that might make things different: he knew that things would be twisted by successors to suit their needs. He knew that the People would make mistakes. He didn't need perfection, he needed something that would always be good enough.
"

The issue is that the civ has been running off of Heroes, and that now no one is good enough for the standards set to rule in comparison.
Pritt's suggestions is to get a system which will be "always good enough"
Monarchy will not always be good enough, because heirs run the gambit from shitty to amazing, and with our traits a shitty ruler will be pounced on and we will end up with the same situation.
It might have been acceptable if our people were content with a centralizing figurehead that sits there and does nothing while the Big Men get shit done, but we both value excellence and believe violence is a perfectly good way to solve almost any problem, which will almost certainly lead to someone killing the "leader" and starting a succession crisis.
 
[X][Actions] Plan Pretty Much Obligatory
-[][Action] Raise Temple (Crystal Lake)
-[][Action] The Law [Retributive Justice] [Admin]
-[][Martial] Train Warriors (Warriors)
-[][Tribute] Megaprojects
 
Raichu1972 said:
The issue is that the civ has been running off of Heroes, and that now no one is good enough for the standards set to rule in comparison.
Pritt's suggestions is to get a system which will be "always good enough"
Monarchy will not always be good enough, because heirs run the gambit from shitty to amazing, and with our traits a shitty ruler will be pounced on and we will end up with the same situation.
It might have been acceptable if our people were content with a centralizing figurehead that sits there and does nothing while the Big Men get shit done, but we both value excellence and believe violence is a perfectly good way to solve almost any problem, which will almost certainly lead to someone killing the "leader" and starting a succession crisis.
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Yes and Heredity has the advantage of Training. As we advanced by default Heredity's coming anyways, if not now then later. If not our leader than those who are selected to be leader. Father to son, Mother to daughter is always going to happen.
Do you honestly believe that No Monarchy had Martial traditions and competency values? Rome had both, and they had Emperors and heirs. The Frankish Empire. The French Empire, British Empire. The Chinese Empire especially, Competency was valued.
 
Redium said:
Non-Hereditary Orders
Born into a clan, each member of the People is encouraged to strike out on their own and make their mark on the world. They are taught to be ambitious, to look for opportunities to prove themselves and demonstrate the superiority of the clan that birthed them and the one that took them in. Excellence in all things is the creed of the People and each person must start anew to demonstrate their worth on that indomitable path.
Effects: Slightly increased Matriarchal tendency, increased ambition/adventurers seeking their fortune, increased social interconnections
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How do non-hereditary orders contribute to matriarchal tendency?
 
Raichu1972 said:
I'm not particularly enjoying the whole Debtor situation (building shit on mountains or corpses is not at all sustainable) and would prefer people to be integrated rather than used up and discarded.
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Given that Pritt the angry is now in charge again and now has full control, this will probably be much less of a problem than it was before.
 
[X] [Debt] Several of the Debtors captured were makers of the tribe's eponymous bitter water. Make them produce some for the People. (???)
[X][Aeva] Aeva was an Ember-Eye: always in touch with the spirits.
[][Aeva] Aeva was the daughter of Kaspar and born to rule.
[X][Actions] Plan Pretty Much Obligatory
-[X][Action] Raise Temple (Crystal Lake)
-[X][Action] The Law [Retributive Justice] [Admin]
-[X][Martial] Train Warriors (Warriors)
-[X][Tribute] Megaprojects - Current Megaproject

Twiggierjet said:
How do non-hereditary orders contribute to matriarchal tendency?
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Because the Father's achievements no longer pass easily down to their warrior sons, they're assigned by chance to any barracks, which is where their martial honors will go to. Which gives the matrons more influence because they can pass down their connections to their daughters via backroom networking. Net effect then means that the men would be working with one lifetime of prestige(albeit more easily earned, because thats how war works) while the women would be working with generations of prestige(but accumulated slowly because again, soft power takes time)
racnor said:
Given that Pritt the angry is now in charge again and now has full control, this will probably be much less of a problem than it was before.
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Provided he gets to do The Law in time yes. It'd probably be pretty damned important to him.
 
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[X] [Debt] Several of the Debtors captured were makers of the tribe's eponymous bitter water. Make them produce some for the People. (???)
[X][Aeva] Aeva was the daughter of Kaspar and born to rule.
[X][Actions] Plan Pretty Much Obligatory
 
[X] [Debt] Several of the Debtors captured were makers of the tribe's eponymous bitter water. Make them produce some for the People. (???)
[X][Aeva] Aeva was an Ember-Eye: always in touch with the spirits.
[X][Aeva] Aeva was the daughter of Kaspar and born to rule.
[X][Actions] Plan Pretty Much Obligatory
-[X][Action] Raise Temple (Crystal Lake)
-[X][Action] The Law [Retributive Justice] [Admin]
-[X][Martial] Train Warriors (Warriors)
-[X][Tribute] Megaprojects - Current Megaproject
 
Can someone at least explain their reasoning for going for alchohol production rather than the hill? I really don't see how it's worth not starting the hill lock-in timer.
veekie said:
Provided he gets to do The Law in time yes. It'd probably be pretty damned important to him.
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He's the Big Man; he doesn't need the law to ensure good treatment now; he only needs it to ensure good treatment after he dies.
 
Redium said:
I was thinking more along the line of changing things so that new buildings provide a throughput of resources. For example, a Sugar Shack would give +0.5 units of Luxuries in exchange for 1 unit of Wood and 0.5 units of Food. It would take a while to balance the system, but it wold remain relatively stable over time. It would also make settlement destruction a lot more harmful as that would gut an enormous amount of infrastructure. That's ultimately more realistic; a city being destroyed could send the entire region around it into a tailspin that it might never recover from.
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I think @Azel , in his new civ quest, instituted a system that straddles the line between narrative and challenge that you're aiming for here. As has been expressed by other people, though, the main draw of your quest is its focus on storytelling over 'gaming', so I hope you stick with that.
 
[X] [Debt] Found a new settlement for them. (Found Settlement: River-Bend)
[X] [Aeva] Aeva brought Success to her endevours.
[X][Actions] Plan Pretty Much Obligatory
-[X][Action] Raise Temple (Crystal Lake)
-[X][Action] The Law [Retributive Justice] [Admin]
-[X][Martial] Train Warriors (Warriors)
-[X][Tribute] Megaprojects

We should do the map megaproject at some point. Maps are really useful administrative tools.

Using Rome & China as examples is rather silly. They're prime examples for the concerns about succession crises.

I think Redium's setup is a more satisfactory balance than Azel's, though I must admit that's because the per-turn income basis of wood, tools, food, etc. is irritating to deal with.
 
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[X] [Debt] Moving dirt builds character. (The Hill: Fingers x2)

[X][Aeva] Aeva was the daughter of Kaspar and born to rule.

[X][Actions] Plan tall sheep
-[X][Action] Raise Temple (Crystal Lake)
-[X][Action] Promote Folk Wrestling
-[X][Action] New Trails
-[X][Tribute] World

The war is over and pritt is back amongst the people, this means that building a hill this time will not result in the same sort of unfortunate accidents like the last time, seeing as pritt has a low tolerance of such things.

Now as mentioned in the northern war update, our trails are woefully underdeveloped, so it's a great time to be working in improving them as the hill and temple are finishing up at the same time, perhaps this massive focus on construction across multiple locations may even lead to new ideas on trails and perhaps a form of roads.

Lastly, why folk wrestling?
In a culture that is both values competences and has extremely strong martial tendencies, an established martial tradition and formalised rule of violence are desperately needed to maintain relative peace, stability and order.

And wrestling if further developed, will likely lead to the formalisation of martial arts and honour codes, two things which historically were the means by which martial societies didn't simply implode or self suicide, but rather maintained high stability.

The benefits are not only internal, for such codes and practices are helpful both in war and in assimilating or coexistence and assimilation of different peoples.
 
[X] [Debt] Moving dirt builds character. (The Hill: Fingers x2)
[X] [Aeva] Aeva was Great within her fields of experience.
[X][Actions] Plan Pretty Much Obligatory
-[X][Action] Raise Temple (Crystal Lake)
-[X][Action] The Law [Retributive Justice] [Admin]
-[X][Martial] Train Warriors (Warriors)
-[X][Tribute] Megaprojects
 
[X] [Debt] Moving dirt builds character. (The Hill: Fingers x2)
[X] [Aeva] Aeva was an Ember-Eye: always in touch with the spirits.
[X] [Aeva] Aeva was the daughter of Kaspar and born to rule.
[X] [Actions] Plan Pretty Much Obligatory
 
racnor said:
Can someone at least explain their reasoning for going for alchohol production rather than the hill? I really don't see how it's worth not starting the hill lock-in timer.

He's the Big Man; he doesn't need the law to ensure good treatment now; he only needs it to ensure good treatment after he dies.
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Alcohol for several reasons:
-Ritual development. Theres a lot of culture and religious advancements developed by the use of mind altering substances. Given our position as the preeminent religious power, its a tool we could use very well.

-Health. Alcohol acts as a health improvement, either due to the production process or the alcohol itself helping to kill off parasites in water consumed. As an early disinfectant it also helps with developing surgery. We need this due to building tall.

-Wealth. Our trade power stems from:
--Sugar - Outcompeted by Pearl Diver salt as a preservative. We can't fix this.
--Obsidian - Dependent upon Arrow Lake.
--Salt - Dependent upon Pearl Divers
--Ivory - Dependent upon Northlands

Alcohol gives us the independent trade power to support sugar. And in fact, due to our ability to make sugar we can make better alcohol than they can and outcompete on that basis.

-Ethics. Hill building killed a shitload of Debtors last time. Lets try not to repeat that and make it normal?

As for the latter...Priit has maybe 2 more turns in him. Best make sure his views are set in stone.
 
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veekie said:
Alcohol for several reasons:
-Ritual development. Theres a lot of culture and religious advancements developed by the use of mind altering substances. Given our position as the preeminent religious power, its a tool we could use very well.

-Health. Alcohol acts as a health improvement, either due to the production process or the alcohol itself helping to kill off parasites in water consumed. As an early disinfectant it also helps with developing surgery. We need this due to building tall.

-Wealth. Our trade power stems from:
--Sugar - Outcompeted by Pearl Diver salt as a preservative. We can't fix this.
--Obsidian - Dependent upon Arrow Lake.
--Salt - Dependent upon Pearl Divers
--Ivory - Dependent upon Northlands

Alcohol gives us the independent trade power to support sugar. And in fact, due to our ability to make sugar we can make better alcohol than they can and outcompete on that basis.

-Ethics. Hill building killed a shitload of Debtors last time. Lets try not to repeat that and make it normal?

As for the latter...Priit has maybe 2 more turns in him. Best make sure his views are set in stone.
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Last time didn't involve pritt in the hill building however, in fact I'd say that the last result mandates that we do it again, if only so that the issue is addressed before it passes into the realm of, that's how its always been done.
 
[X] [Debt] Several of the Debtors captured were makers of the tribe's eponymous bitter water. Make them produce some for the People. (???)
[X][Aeva] Aeva was the daughter of Kaspar and born to rule.
[X][Actions] Plan Pretty Much Obligatory
-[X][Action] Raise Temple (Crystal Lake)
-[X][Action] The Law [Retributive Justice] [Admin]
-[X][Martial] Train Warriors (Warriors)
-[X][Tribute] Megaprojects - Current Megaproject
 
veekie said:
-Wealth. Our trade power stems from:
--Sugar - Outcompeted by Pearl Diver salt as a preservative. We can't fix this.
--Obsidian - Dependent upon Arrow Lake.
--Salt - Dependent upon Pearl Divers
--Ivory - Dependent upon Northlands
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Obsidian comes from our land and we also have gems. Trade could always be better, but it isn't nearly a crisis or anything.
veekie said:
-Ethics. Hill building killed a shitload of Debtors last time. Lets try not to repeat that and make it normal?
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Thus, the second thing I said; Pritt is big man and will prevent such things. I'm not sure what you thing I'm saying, I agree that law is needed long term.

That said, the other points are good enough that its basically a matter of preference. Thank's for explaining your side.
EDIT-ninja'ed by max
 
Alcohol needs to be spread far and wide. Not just for us, but for the good of the continent. We need to start genetically/culturally adapting to alcohol pronto.
 
[X] [Debt] Several of the Debtors captured were makers of the tribe's eponymous bitter water. Make them produce some for the People. (???)
[X][Aeva] Aeva was the daughter of Kaspar and born to rule.
[X][Actions] Plan Pretty Much Obligatory
-[X][Action] Raise Temple (Crystal Lake)
-[X][Action] The Law [Retributive Justice] [Admin]
-[X][Martial] Train Warriors (Warriors)
-[X][Tribute] Megaprojects - Current Megaproject
 
Raichu1972 said:
the Tribe runs fine on the current system, and there is no pressure within the tribe to create a hereditary upper class besides the anomaly of Heroes, which as you said are quite rare.
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Things are not fine.

Hill Guard is currently in the middle of a low-key civil war because they couldn't agree on someone to lead them. Due to the war last turn, there's a large number of veterans who are returning and making things worse. They are used to using violence to get their way and they have their own strange hierarchies that they created which don't mesh well with what Hill Guard currently has going on.

Crystal Lake would be doing the same thing instead of being utterly paralyzed but they've become leadership snobs. They're so used to having Heroic leaders that they won't accept anyone less than that. Things are fine for now since you do have Priit, but they're going to go for an immediate dive the second that he dies.

The Fingers are doing okay for the most part. They won't be once they realize that Priit now has to resettle in Crystal Lake since the settlement won't function without him. That means not only have Priit, but Aeva and Kaspar been stolen by Crystal Lake, incensing the Fingers.

You're still in the middle of a government transition right now. If you check the 1st page, you're still over your Specialization limit and that's causing a lot of problems. You solved it on the lower level, but on the higher levels, it's now impossible to receive enough training to be a leader; no one is taught how to lead thousands and organize all of the resources and industries you have; it's simply not possible to do so without mechanisms to train for it. Right now, your leaders basically don't receive any training at all; Aeva and Priit can make do because they're Heroes; whoever follows them almost certainly won't.

Government reforms and transitions are dangerous. They're like trying to perform maintenance on an air plane while still flying. You managed to hit the Lakelands in just the right spot this turn that you utterly warped their transition and dealt immeasurable damage to them socially. They're now set on a doomed path. Someone hitting you in the right spot right now could easily make you fly apart.

Twiggierjet said:
How do non-hereditary orders contribute to matriarchal tendency?
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Non-Heriditary Clans is probably the wrong word, but I'm not sure what to call it: your succession system is basically a hybridized progenitor of Ultimogeniture and Tanistry. Essentially, how your system currently works is that children do not receive an inheritance from their families. When the parents die, their private possessions revert to their clan. Kids'll still be raised by their family, but it's expected that they will make their own way in the world, forging their own name and their own destiny.

All of it is based on your Elite value and Kaspar's and Priit's stories. Demonstrating that you are the best is a critical component in society, the more that you can prove your accomplishments are your own, the more glory that comes with them. Kaspar moved over the course of his life, separating himself from his ancestors. Priit raised himself with nothing, working his way up from being worse than a Debtor. They are the Ideals by which young warriors measure themselves.

Young men have to carve their own place in the world, starting to build up power each generation from scratch. Now, there's still an advantage to be had as a result of good training and an easy early life, but the network of social connections that defines a true noble caste can't form. That drives the increase in ambition and adventurism. Across centuries, this is a huge disadvantage, but to the average person, those that win look like they come out far ahead.

Young women, on the other hand, are much less likely to become warriors. This means that they can stay around their birth families and benefit from the connections they forge. They're also generally the ones that decide if a young warriors can join their particular clan; young warriors solidify their new ties by marriage. Women tend to benefit more as a whole from this arrangement and as such will rise in relative prestige over time. Since so many warriors die, women start to become the bones on which the warriors clans are built.

How this ends up effecting your succession laws long-term is dependent on future choices.

LonelyWolf999 said:
I think @Azel , in his new civ quest, instituted a system that straddles the line between narrative and challenge that you're aiming for here. As has been expressed by other people, though, the main draw of your quest is its focus on storytelling over 'gaming', so I hope you stick with that.
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I took a look at @Azel's quest and his system is pretty close to what I was conceptualizing. I don't want to deliberately copy him so I'll think on it more. Most people seem to be happy with the narrative approach for now.

The one benefit of having codified, numerical stats means that it's easier to give out rewards or demonstrate temporary damage from war or natural disaster.

veekie said:
--Obsidian - Dependent upon Arrow Lake.
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No..? The obsidian you have is 100% internally mined at Crystal Lake. The only society which has any source of obsidian outside of you is the Lakelands and they appear to only produce a fraction of what you can produce.
 
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