Strategic Arms Quest 3/2: Armor Edition
- Thread starter 7734
- Start date
- Original
Contest 3: Surprise Acquisition
7734
Trust and verify.
- Location
- Philmont
Moving quickly, literally and figuratively as you checked your service dirk and briefcase, you burst into the Artillery Branch Development headquarters and smiled very widely at the secretary. You had orders fresh from the head of Artillery Procurement with your name on them, and that the Motor Gun Carriage Project director's office was yours now.
The fact this project was technically a project under Logistics Proccurement, and had been seconded to Artillery Testing, well that was small potatoes. The fact this project was being run by comittee helped- High Command realized that those tended to turn into circular pork barrels, so your cowboying in to take over wouldn't be criticised… if you could bring this mess in on budget. A quick scan of the books told you three things that were gonna make this real damn hard, though.
One, the books were more cooked than canned rations left in the desert on the Equator for a year.
Two, there were about five hundred thalers left in the bank, plus staff pay allotments. That would pay for the mail, and maybe three or four test vehicles for one testing day, so most of this was gonna be off book specs. Hoo boy.
Three, the rolls were bloated as hell. You were dripping in hangers-on and cowardly Junkers who needed an infantry command and a pair of balls. That would be easy enough to handle, at least.
For actual work related to the job, your 'predecessors' had it neatly ready for porkbarreling by dividing the job up in two halfs: Assault Guns, which were a gun of limited traverse on a motorized and tracked chassis; and Artillery Tractors, which would haul around support guns so that the Assault Guns were organic to the infantry (and therefore resulted in more pork via tools and maintenance and shit) and had tentatively recommended the Thryssen KTW-2, built off the treadbase of the AV-4 and carrying a self-defense machine gun and a 7,5cm/50 standard field gun. If the paper reports were to be believed (and they were stamped by the head of Ravensburg Proving Ground) then the KTW-2 made an average of 12 kph, took one minute to come to battery, and carried three hundred shells internally. The prime mover tractors were more competious, with bids from Lambda, Ursus, Kubota, Wanderer, Ebro, and Fendt each kicking in multiple designs and weights of trailer. You'd need to clear that up with a proper RFQ right quick… which meant you'd need to dig out your tables on the field artillery.
God, you hadn't touched those in almost a year. Time to brush off the dust from that old book…
FIELD GUN MANUAL M.898
Yeah, this was gonna be a nightmare. At least you only needed to babel out some specifications for a tractor. You hoped.
((Vote is By Plan. You need a rough idea for your tractors, a decision on the Thryssen SPG, and what to do about your Staff Issues. Your old Board is on hand to help. Good Luck.))
The fact this project was technically a project under Logistics Proccurement, and had been seconded to Artillery Testing, well that was small potatoes. The fact this project was being run by comittee helped- High Command realized that those tended to turn into circular pork barrels, so your cowboying in to take over wouldn't be criticised… if you could bring this mess in on budget. A quick scan of the books told you three things that were gonna make this real damn hard, though.
One, the books were more cooked than canned rations left in the desert on the Equator for a year.
Two, there were about five hundred thalers left in the bank, plus staff pay allotments. That would pay for the mail, and maybe three or four test vehicles for one testing day, so most of this was gonna be off book specs. Hoo boy.
Three, the rolls were bloated as hell. You were dripping in hangers-on and cowardly Junkers who needed an infantry command and a pair of balls. That would be easy enough to handle, at least.
For actual work related to the job, your 'predecessors' had it neatly ready for porkbarreling by dividing the job up in two halfs: Assault Guns, which were a gun of limited traverse on a motorized and tracked chassis; and Artillery Tractors, which would haul around support guns so that the Assault Guns were organic to the infantry (and therefore resulted in more pork via tools and maintenance and shit) and had tentatively recommended the Thryssen KTW-2, built off the treadbase of the AV-4 and carrying a self-defense machine gun and a 7,5cm/50 standard field gun. If the paper reports were to be believed (and they were stamped by the head of Ravensburg Proving Ground) then the KTW-2 made an average of 12 kph, took one minute to come to battery, and carried three hundred shells internally. The prime mover tractors were more competious, with bids from Lambda, Ursus, Kubota, Wanderer, Ebro, and Fendt each kicking in multiple designs and weights of trailer. You'd need to clear that up with a proper RFQ right quick… which meant you'd need to dig out your tables on the field artillery.
God, you hadn't touched those in almost a year. Time to brush off the dust from that old book…
FIELD GUN MANUAL M.898
Yeah, this was gonna be a nightmare. At least you only needed to babel out some specifications for a tractor. You hoped.
((Vote is By Plan. You need a rough idea for your tractors, a decision on the Thryssen SPG, and what to do about your Staff Issues. Your old Board is on hand to help. Good Luck.))
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- Location
- Queensland, Australia
First impression of the current Assault Gun:
What the fuck is an SPG, let alone an Assault Gun that's meant to get up close to the enemy doing with 300 rounds of ammunition, and the powder chargers to fire them?
Seriously, what the the fuck? Thats just asking that every single round that penetrates, or causes spalling to always cause the ammunition or powder charges to detonate. Not maybe, always.
Drop that down to 60 rounds. If it needs more than that, it's either not right on the frontlines so can be reloaded from an accompanying ammunition truck without worrying about getting blown up by enemy fire more than is normal with counter-battery fire, or the situation is so fucked up having more internal ammunition stores wouldn't have been useful as the vehicle would have already been destroyed by just how much more vulnerable all those explosives left it.
Also, holy shot at the cost losing a single one of these vehicles would be... Because you will always be losing 300 artillery rounds and powder charges.with it, not the 'fairly often you will also lose them' you'd get with a more sensible ammunition load.
What the fuck is an SPG, let alone an Assault Gun that's meant to get up close to the enemy doing with 300 rounds of ammunition, and the powder chargers to fire them?
Seriously, what the the fuck? Thats just asking that every single round that penetrates, or causes spalling to always cause the ammunition or powder charges to detonate. Not maybe, always.
Drop that down to 60 rounds. If it needs more than that, it's either not right on the frontlines so can be reloaded from an accompanying ammunition truck without worrying about getting blown up by enemy fire more than is normal with counter-battery fire, or the situation is so fucked up having more internal ammunition stores wouldn't have been useful as the vehicle would have already been destroyed by just how much more vulnerable all those explosives left it.
Also, holy shot at the cost losing a single one of these vehicles would be... Because you will always be losing 300 artillery rounds and powder charges.with it, not the 'fairly often you will also lose them' you'd get with a more sensible ammunition load.
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- Location
- Belgium
I'd say the best option would be to have two seperate vehicles in the end: a bigger SPG carrying that howitzer, and a smaller, lighter assault gun (perhaps by Wanderer?) carrying either the 3,5cm/50 Field Cannon or the 5,5cm/50 Field Cannon.
The biggest field gun seems suboptimal, the increased blast radius isn't worth much because trenches. The howitzer is much better against trenches (higher angle of fire/impact) and heavy fortifications. So the 'true' SPG should probably go with the howitzer.
Troops might want some direct fire support against light fortifications, troops and perhaps tanks. For this role, a smaller, lighter vehicle .might make more sense.
The biggest field gun seems suboptimal, the increased blast radius isn't worth much because trenches. The howitzer is much better against trenches (higher angle of fire/impact) and heavy fortifications. So the 'true' SPG should probably go with the howitzer.
Troops might want some direct fire support against light fortifications, troops and perhaps tanks. For this role, a smaller, lighter vehicle .might make more sense.
7734
Trust and verify.
- Location
- Philmont
TortugaGreen
Constantly out of the loop
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X]Plan Clearing Out
-[X]KTW-2 may be accepted as an assault gun if it can demonstrate a level of maintenance requirement no greater than present tanks with the same tools that are presently used, and accommodates the following changes:
--[X] Magazine is to be reduced to 75 rounds to minimize risk of ammunition detonations, with the freed space and mass used in improving armor and operational longevity through improvements to the reliability of the vehicle's drives and controls.
--[X] Crew harm due to any part of normal operation such as driving and manuevering or firing the cannon is minimized to a level or no more than one major injury or incapacitation of more than a minute for any crew member within 5 days of use on the field.
-[X]All nonessential staff are to be transferred away from the project, along with any essential staff that fail to perform at their role to an appreciable level. Any critical gaps are to be filled with hires of people not connected to those who were removed from the project. If anyone is too well connected to safety remove but is nonetheless problematic, they are to be shifted to the least essential position possible and allowed to shape up and be productive there, with their pay reduced by miscellaneous fees and making them buy as much of the project's needs as youcsn convince them to out of their pocket.
-[X] New artillery tractors are to be able to pull at least 1800 kg guns, as well as either pulling the ammunition cart or carrying the ammunition on board the tractor. They must also be no more than 250 Thalers per unit and less is strongly encouraged, and be able to carry a full load at 7.5 km per hour with less than one major breakdown per hour. The driver of the vehicle and its powertrain are to be armored against shell fragments from hits at greater than 30m range. All submissions must be compatable with existing tooling and logistical components. Vehicles capable of pulling 3 tons of load under the same constraints may have greater cost, with the lifted limit at 400T a vehicle. Vehicles are encouraged to be able to independently carry their towed Cannon's crew inside the armored section.
I was relatively gentle on Thryssen here, because I figured that it would be inadvisable to have to start up a whole second competition after something has already been decided.
On the other hand, I am very harsh on the miscellaneous surplus officers, and generally have an average policy of "shoo, go away you wastes of money." For those that can't be due to connections, the plan is to get at least something out of them, even if it's our money back.
Finally, a tractor. This is a pretty constrained set of roles, but I'm sure the designers can rise to the occasion.
Note that this plan will be being revised for the near future, and may change without posted notice. It has now been revised thrice, most recently to the Tractor design.
-[X]KTW-2 may be accepted as an assault gun if it can demonstrate a level of maintenance requirement no greater than present tanks with the same tools that are presently used, and accommodates the following changes:
--[X] Magazine is to be reduced to 75 rounds to minimize risk of ammunition detonations, with the freed space and mass used in improving armor and operational longevity through improvements to the reliability of the vehicle's drives and controls.
--[X] Crew harm due to any part of normal operation such as driving and manuevering or firing the cannon is minimized to a level or no more than one major injury or incapacitation of more than a minute for any crew member within 5 days of use on the field.
-[X]All nonessential staff are to be transferred away from the project, along with any essential staff that fail to perform at their role to an appreciable level. Any critical gaps are to be filled with hires of people not connected to those who were removed from the project. If anyone is too well connected to safety remove but is nonetheless problematic, they are to be shifted to the least essential position possible and allowed to shape up and be productive there, with their pay reduced by miscellaneous fees and making them buy as much of the project's needs as youcsn convince them to out of their pocket.
-[X] New artillery tractors are to be able to pull at least 1800 kg guns, as well as either pulling the ammunition cart or carrying the ammunition on board the tractor. They must also be no more than 250 Thalers per unit and less is strongly encouraged, and be able to carry a full load at 7.5 km per hour with less than one major breakdown per hour. The driver of the vehicle and its powertrain are to be armored against shell fragments from hits at greater than 30m range. All submissions must be compatable with existing tooling and logistical components. Vehicles capable of pulling 3 tons of load under the same constraints may have greater cost, with the lifted limit at 400T a vehicle. Vehicles are encouraged to be able to independently carry their towed Cannon's crew inside the armored section.
I was relatively gentle on Thryssen here, because I figured that it would be inadvisable to have to start up a whole second competition after something has already been decided.
On the other hand, I am very harsh on the miscellaneous surplus officers, and generally have an average policy of "shoo, go away you wastes of money." For those that can't be due to connections, the plan is to get at least something out of them, even if it's our money back.
Finally, a tractor. This is a pretty constrained set of roles, but I'm sure the designers can rise to the occasion.
Note that this plan will be being revised for the near future, and may change without posted notice. It has now been revised thrice, most recently to the Tractor design.
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- Location
- Brazil
This seems very arbitrary.
globalwarmth
ruining the weather.
- Location
- Polar ice caps
They're smoothbores no? Those definitely would survive the 300 shots before needing change
I don't think they are smoothbores, fin stabilized shell are not a thing yet so rifling is the only way for a gun to be accurate beyond 100 meters this time and age.
7734
Trust and verify.
- Location
- Philmont
Generally the 7,5 makes about four or five hundred rounds before she starts running into issues, and needs a liner change every 800 rounds.
None of these guns are smoothbore.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
I think we need to specifically ask for two tractors (1.8 ton and 3 ton) or we should just go all in on one 3-ton tractor capable of doing everything.
Which might be better considering we only have enough budget to test 3 or 4 vehicles.
EDIT: Plan below. Can modify as needed if people have suggestions/take umbrage.
[X] Plan Deadlift
-[X] KTW-2
--[X] Conduct personal walk-around / crawl-through of vehicle to see if we can get an idea of how constrained or effective the vehicle would be for an artillery crew. See if Ledwinka and Folgers can come along to provide input.
--[X] Request that prior to approval for use, the magazine be reduced to standard war-load for an equivalent 7,5 gun; weight savings should be applied to armor or allowing for greater maneuverability and speed.
--[X] Ask for estimated cost and production time of the KTW-2.
-[X] Commission Staffing and Etc.
--[X] Get one of your competent, trusted underlings to go through the books with a fine-toothed comb to see what you can save or eke out of this mess of a budget and pork.
--[X] All nonessential staff are to be transferred away from the project, along with any essential staff that fail to perform at their role to an appreciable level. Any critical gaps are to be filled with hires of people not connected to those who were removed from the project. If anyone is too well connected to safety remove but is nonetheless problematic, they are to be shifted to the least essential position possible and allowed to shape up and be productive there, with their pay reduced by miscellaneous fees and making them buy as much of the project's needs as you can convince them to out of their pocket.
-[X] Artillery Tractor
--[X] Submittals should be capable of towing or carrying a combined weight of 3,000 kgs and be fully tracked and capable of crossing broken terrain. They can carry the gun en portee or tow them. Submittals should be unarmed. Armoring driver's compartment, cargo area (if any), and power train (or combination thereof) against shell splinters at 30 meters is encouraged. Designers should submit estimated cost and time for production with designs. Ammunition should be carried in trailer or tractor can have a dedicated cargo area. Loaded speed should be at least 7.5 kph, preferably 9 kph. If possible, tractor should include room for gun crew (or develop a passenger variant/trailer to carry gun crews so they can keep up with rest of battery).
Which might be better considering we only have enough budget to test 3 or 4 vehicles.
EDIT: Plan below. Can modify as needed if people have suggestions/take umbrage.
[X] Plan Deadlift
-[X] KTW-2
--[X] Conduct personal walk-around / crawl-through of vehicle to see if we can get an idea of how constrained or effective the vehicle would be for an artillery crew. See if Ledwinka and Folgers can come along to provide input.
--[X] Request that prior to approval for use, the magazine be reduced to standard war-load for an equivalent 7,5 gun; weight savings should be applied to armor or allowing for greater maneuverability and speed.
--[X] Ask for estimated cost and production time of the KTW-2.
-[X] Commission Staffing and Etc.
--[X] Get one of your competent, trusted underlings to go through the books with a fine-toothed comb to see what you can save or eke out of this mess of a budget and pork.
--[X] All nonessential staff are to be transferred away from the project, along with any essential staff that fail to perform at their role to an appreciable level. Any critical gaps are to be filled with hires of people not connected to those who were removed from the project. If anyone is too well connected to safety remove but is nonetheless problematic, they are to be shifted to the least essential position possible and allowed to shape up and be productive there, with their pay reduced by miscellaneous fees and making them buy as much of the project's needs as you can convince them to out of their pocket.
-[X] Artillery Tractor
--[X] Submittals should be capable of towing or carrying a combined weight of 3,000 kgs and be fully tracked and capable of crossing broken terrain. They can carry the gun en portee or tow them. Submittals should be unarmed. Armoring driver's compartment, cargo area (if any), and power train (or combination thereof) against shell splinters at 30 meters is encouraged. Designers should submit estimated cost and time for production with designs. Ammunition should be carried in trailer or tractor can have a dedicated cargo area. Loaded speed should be at least 7.5 kph, preferably 9 kph. If possible, tractor should include room for gun crew (or develop a passenger variant/trailer to carry gun crews so they can keep up with rest of battery).
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- Location
- Somewhere in the stacks
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] Plan Deadlift
Himmelhand
Giant Sinkhole 2020
- Location
- Midwestern US
Is the SPG really necessary given the infantry tank potentially coming into use? Seems pretty redundant. Cut it out entirely, IMO.
To carry the guns and their full ammunition load, a prime mover would need capacity of:
If we prioritize mechanical reliability, we can meet the carrying capacity needs by eliminating weapons and armor. Any model that was originally built to carry a 55mm gun or larger could likely be adapted to haul anything less than a 105mm gun. If they can be made to pull 3500kg, we could eliminate the need for a heavy mover for the 105mm gun and instead pair up movers to haul both the gun and the ammo. It would also allow greater ammo loads per gun on lighter weapons, which may make the batteries happy.
To that end, I see the following options as candidates for tractor variants:
To carry the guns and their full ammunition load, a prime mover would need capacity of:
- 35mm (130kg + 200x.645kg) 260kg
- 55mm (1200kg + 90x3.2kg) 1500kg
- 75mm (1600kg + 72x7kg) 2100kg
- 105mm (2500kg +240x60kg) 7000kg
If we prioritize mechanical reliability, we can meet the carrying capacity needs by eliminating weapons and armor. Any model that was originally built to carry a 55mm gun or larger could likely be adapted to haul anything less than a 105mm gun. If they can be made to pull 3500kg, we could eliminate the need for a heavy mover for the 105mm gun and instead pair up movers to haul both the gun and the ammo. It would also allow greater ammo loads per gun on lighter weapons, which may make the batteries happy.
To that end, I see the following options as candidates for tractor variants:
- GK-1 from Contest 1
- GK-3 from Contest 2
- W-8 from Contest 2 (if they can offer better engine reliability)
- W-6 from Contest 2
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
It's capable of indirect fire and is more supposed to be a gun carrier to allow the relatively quick movement of the 7,5 forward over no man 's land to support an infantry breakthrough. They're not StuGs; more like an early Priest or a Wespe.
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7734
Trust and verify.
- Location
- Philmont
I should probably plug the Discord link again: a lot of information gets shared there. Continuing on...
Current indications point towards this being an attempt to buy a civilian vehicle in an attempt to cut costs. A tracked tractor wouldn't be hard to find though.
Also, note several definitions are in their fornative stages. An starting example is the Assault Gun, a self mobile gun carriage meant to go with the Assault.
Current indications point towards this being an attempt to buy a civilian vehicle in an attempt to cut costs. A tracked tractor wouldn't be hard to find though.
Also, note several definitions are in their fornative stages. An starting example is the Assault Gun, a self mobile gun carriage meant to go with the Assault.
- Location
- Somewhere
[X] Plan What Is This I Don't Even:
-[X] KTW-2
--[X] Conduct personal walk-around / crawl-through of vehicle to see if we can get an idea of how constrained or effective the vehicle would be for an artillery crew. See if Ledwinka and Folgers can come along to provide input.
--[X] Request that prior to approval for use, the magazine be reduced to standard war-load for an equivalent 7,5 gun; weight savings should be applied to armor or allowing for greater maneuverability and speed.
--[X] At least try to scrounge up the money to put the machine through its paces in driving around, see if this Thryssen design tries to gas its operators and/or if it can deliver as promised.
--[X] Suggest a modification so the KTW-2 can tow additional ammunition while between firing positions in carts.
--[X] Ask for estimated cost and production time of the KTW-2.
-[X] Commission Staffing and Etc.
--[X] Get one of your competent, trusted underlings to go through the books with a fine-toothed comb to see what you can save or eke out of this mess of a budget and pork.
--[X] All nonessential staff are to be transferred away from the project, along with any essential staff that fail to perform at their role to an appreciable level.
--[X] Any critical gaps are to be filled with hires of people not connected to those who were removed from the project.
--[X] If anyone is too well connected to safety remove but is nonetheless problematic, they are to be shifted to the least essential position possible and allowed to shape up and be productive there, with their pay reduced by miscellaneous fees and making them buy as much of the project's needs as you can convince them to out of their pocket.
-[X] Artillery Tractor
--[X] Submissions should be capable of towing or carrying a combined weight of 3,000 kgs and be fully tracked and capable of crossing broken terrain.
--[X] They can carry the gun en portee or tow them.
--[X] Submissions should be unarmed.
--[X] Armoring driver's compartment, cargo area (if any), and power train (or combination thereof) against shell splinters at 30 meters is encouraged.
--[X] Designers should submit estimated cost and time for production with designs.
--[X] Ammunition should be carried in trailer or tractor can have a dedicated cargo area.
--[X] Loaded speed should be at least 7.5 kph, preferably 9 kph.
--[X] If possible, tractor should include room for gun crew (or develop a passenger variant/trailer to carry gun crews so they can keep up with rest of battery).
-[X] KTW-2
--[X] Conduct personal walk-around / crawl-through of vehicle to see if we can get an idea of how constrained or effective the vehicle would be for an artillery crew. See if Ledwinka and Folgers can come along to provide input.
--[X] Request that prior to approval for use, the magazine be reduced to standard war-load for an equivalent 7,5 gun; weight savings should be applied to armor or allowing for greater maneuverability and speed.
--[X] At least try to scrounge up the money to put the machine through its paces in driving around, see if this Thryssen design tries to gas its operators and/or if it can deliver as promised.
--[X] Suggest a modification so the KTW-2 can tow additional ammunition while between firing positions in carts.
--[X] Ask for estimated cost and production time of the KTW-2.
-[X] Commission Staffing and Etc.
--[X] Get one of your competent, trusted underlings to go through the books with a fine-toothed comb to see what you can save or eke out of this mess of a budget and pork.
--[X] All nonessential staff are to be transferred away from the project, along with any essential staff that fail to perform at their role to an appreciable level.
--[X] Any critical gaps are to be filled with hires of people not connected to those who were removed from the project.
--[X] If anyone is too well connected to safety remove but is nonetheless problematic, they are to be shifted to the least essential position possible and allowed to shape up and be productive there, with their pay reduced by miscellaneous fees and making them buy as much of the project's needs as you can convince them to out of their pocket.
-[X] Artillery Tractor
--[X] Submissions should be capable of towing or carrying a combined weight of 3,000 kgs and be fully tracked and capable of crossing broken terrain.
--[X] They can carry the gun en portee or tow them.
--[X] Submissions should be unarmed.
--[X] Armoring driver's compartment, cargo area (if any), and power train (or combination thereof) against shell splinters at 30 meters is encouraged.
--[X] Designers should submit estimated cost and time for production with designs.
--[X] Ammunition should be carried in trailer or tractor can have a dedicated cargo area.
--[X] Loaded speed should be at least 7.5 kph, preferably 9 kph.
--[X] If possible, tractor should include room for gun crew (or develop a passenger variant/trailer to carry gun crews so they can keep up with rest of battery).
7734
Trust and verify.
- Location
- Philmont
Cost of a one meter of two centimeter rebar: eighty kreutzer .
Cost of bar bender for twenty minutes: fifteen kreutzer.
Cost of trench-crossing skids for a cart: twenty-five kreutzer.
Cost of oxycetaline welder for ten minutes: eight kreutzer.
Ability to tow a munitions wagon behind you while you move up to the only clear spot to fire from on the other side of No Man's Land: Priceless.
Cost of bar bender for twenty minutes: fifteen kreutzer.
Cost of trench-crossing skids for a cart: twenty-five kreutzer.
Cost of oxycetaline welder for ten minutes: eight kreutzer.
Ability to tow a munitions wagon behind you while you move up to the only clear spot to fire from on the other side of No Man's Land: Priceless.
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Himmelhand
Giant Sinkhole 2020
- Location
- Midwestern US
[X] Plan What Is This I Don't Even
I mostly like this, though I'm not entirely sure about the speed requirement.
I mostly like this, though I'm not entirely sure about the speed requirement.