From Stone to the Stars

[X] [Victory] Take the Northlanders under the People's wing. (???)
[X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.

[X] [Victory] Take the Northlanders into the People as Debtors. (+3 Tiers of Economy)
[X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.

Orisha91 said:

Um, now that I think about it, his dialouge, whenever he talks about Aeva, is always kind of...off, especially the bit about hurting him. It kind of reverted to something somewhat childlike...

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Eh, close enough. Priit 'got married' at 15 to a 20-something year old woman, by modern standards: statutory rape. Additionally, when his wife started their 'whirlwind romance', he was literally not in his right mind as a result of the severe concussion his suffered. The reason that he fixates so much on Aeva is because he sees her as someone who ignored the fact he was sexually abused and supported his attacker, punishing him in a way that was unjust. The fact that Aeva's a woman only makes it worse. Priit lacks the tools and concepts to understand why it affects him so, but he was deeply effected by his experiences with his wife. Most of his PTSD, like the scene in 17.3, stems from her.

A lot of ancient societies took the view that if you had undergone puberty, you were old enough to consent to sex and marriage. This actually caused numerous mental health problems in adolescents. Their only real experience with sexuality was fumbling around with other adolescents, but almost immediately after that, they're thrust into the deep end and expected to fend for themselves, even against people who are significantly older or their social superiors. Needless to say, lot of adolescents experienced coercive sexual relationships when dealing with those older and more respected. A lot of comparative anthropology from analogous modern societies suggests a range of negative mental health outcomes including: depression, anxiety, and other mood disorders; PTSD; etc.

If you think back to 17.1, Priit was always emphasized, repeatedly, as 'a boy' despite officially being an adult while his wife was never doubted to be a woman. Their romance also was stated to be 'a whirlwind' while Priit was recovering from a brain injury. His general cognitive skills would've been greatly impaired, to the level he'd act like a drunkard, potentially as long as weeks or months considering the blow he took to the head. Being hit by the Ivory-Blooded Chief's spear cracked his skull and likely did some type of long-term damage to Priit. A fifteen year old boy being stuck by a twenty-five year old man with a weapon in the head is potentially fatal, even with the bone armour Priit likely wore.

If you'd chosen to investigate further, this would've come up and given you the opportunity to set a long-term precedent that would've been very supportive of gender equality.

veekie said:

Do mothers count as a profession via grandfather clause?
Do Debtors belong under their profession still?

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Yes. Women can gain franchise from other professions as well, though.

Being a Debtor is less a job and more a status. There are certain jobs that a Debtor is barred from (preparing food, looking after other people's children, trade, and war) but they're allowed to work any other profession. Debtors are pushed to work at the most 'prestigious' (Stonecutter, obsidian knapper) or 'valued' (Tanner, Manual Labour) profession that they can work.

Wow so punishing him was even more fucked up, phew glad I didn't vote for it or i'd feel like a dick. And it hurt us even more so on Gender Equality.
Ohwell live and learn.

That's just...

Horrible.

I don't known what to say. Primitive societies suck.

Well, the basic problem is we deliberately voted against justice and all our social values

[X] [Victory] Take the Northlanders under the People's wing. (???)
[X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.

[X] [Victory] Take the Northlanders into the People as Debtors. (+3 Tiers of Economy)
[X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.

[X] [Victory] Take the Northlanders under the People's wing. (???)
[X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.

Redium said:

Eh, close enough. Priit 'got married' at 15 to a 20-something year old woman, by modern standards: statutory rape. Additionally, when his wife started their 'whirlwind romance', he was literally not in his right mind as a result of the severe concussion his suffered. The reason that he fixates so much on Aeva is because he sees her as someone who ignored the fact he was sexually abused and supported his attacker, punishing him in a way that was unjust. The fact that Aeva's a woman only makes it worse. Priit lacks the tools and concepts to understand why it affects him so, but he was deeply effected by his experiences with his wife. Most of his PTSD, like the scene in 17.3, stems from her.

A lot of ancient societies took the view that if you had undergone puberty, you were old enough to consent to sex and marriage. This actually caused numerous mental health problems in adolescents. Their only real experience with sexuality was fumbling around with other adolescents, but almost immediately after that, they're thrust into the deep end and expected to fend for themselves, even against people who are significantly older or their social superiors. Needless to say, lot of adolescents experienced coercive sexual relationships when dealing with those older and more respected. A lot of comparative anthropology from analogous modern societies suggests a range of negative mental health outcomes including: depression, anxiety, and other mood disorders; PTSD; etc.

If you think back to 17.1, Priit was always emphasized, repeatedly, as 'a boy' despite officially being an adult while his wife was never doubted to be a woman. Their romance also was stated to be 'a whirlwind' while Priit was recovering from a brain injury. His general cognitive skills would've been greatly impaired, to the level he'd act like a drunkard, potentially as long as weeks or months considering the blow he took to the head. Being hit by the Ivory-Blooded Chief's spear cracked his skull and likely did some type of long-term damage to Priit. A fifteen year old boy being stuck by a twenty-five year old man with a weapon in the head is potentially fatal, even with the bone armour Priit likely wore.

If you'd chosen to investigate further, this would've come up and given you the opportunity to set a long-term precedent that would've been very supportive of gender equality.



Yes. Women can gain franchise from other professions as well, though.

Being a Debtor is less a job and more a status. There are certain jobs that a Debtor is barred from (preparing food, looking after other people's children, trade, and war) but they're allowed to work any other profession. Debtors are pushed to work at the most 'prestigious' (Stonecutter, obsidian knapper) or 'valued' (Tanner, Manual Labour) profession that they can work.

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I didn't even think anything of him being 15 and with a woman. I did see the emphasis on 'boy' but I didn't pick up the hint that 'girl' was never used to refer to his wife.

And we basically ruled that she did nothing wrong before her son was revealed as not being his.

So with most of the men dying off and the younger boys heading off to war, I take it this type of behavior has grown. I guess the peacebuilder men who stayed behind have curtailed this behavior by simply being available suitors?

[X] [Victory] Take the Northlanders under the People's wing. (???)
[X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.

[X] [Victory] Take the Northlanders into the People as Debtors. (+3 Tiers of Economy)
[X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.

Redium said:

It would effectively give the determination of trials over to each profession. A stonecutter would be recognized as an adult whenever they meet the criteria that stonecutters set determine to be admission. Same for warriors, shaman, tanners, flint/obsidian knappers, fishermen, etc.

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So in essence we would be reforming the Trials and decentralizing it correct? Would this form formal organizations like guilds of professions that set standards with which the trials are administered? Or would this be more like apprenticeships?

Redium said:

In argument 2, Aeva would be arguing that the Trials laid down by her father were more metaphorical than literal. Instead of explicitly having to provide the tribe more meat than you eat, you would instead need to cultivate a useful skill and become recognized as proficient in the art. Aeva would argue that's what she was doing all along, as was intended.

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How well is argument 2 when it comes to convincing Priit? As while that seems like a reasonable explanation for us, we probably do need to tailor our response in order to make sure this argument both works for the People and for Priit.

Granted this answer seems one that might work as it involves arguments concerning Aeva being a shaman and how that would be worked out here.

Redium said:

In argument 3, Aeva would argue that both women and men could become adults be either 1) having children, or 2) contributing more food to the tribe than they need, instead of being gender specific. She would argue, successfully, that she fulfilled the second criteria to obtain her right to vote.

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So when you say she successfully argues using the points of argument number 3, does that mean than Priit and the rest of the People find argument 3 convincing or is this something different?

Also what is the distinction on why certain arguments grant stability compared to the others? What determines that?

Redium said:

Shamans are respected, but outcast. If they insert themselves into a disucssion, they will be listened to, but they won't be part of the conversation. It's difficult to explain with modern sensibilities. They're important, significant figures, but also ones held at arms length.

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So shamans can't influence the direction of a conversation but they can input advice? That's what this seems like to me.

What if the conversation is on a topic inherently related to them such as magic or the spirits?

Redium said:

You're pretty bad about that, but not as worse as it could be. There was one horticulturalist Amazonian tribe I recall reading about where 60% of men die by murder. You're probably only sitting around 20% or so.

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Well that's not too surprising considering how primitive we are but I'm guessing everyone else around us has similar problems of their own right?

How did that Amazonian tribe even function like that?

Redium said:

Hardened is temporary unless: 1) you continue fighting wars, or 2) manage to improve your Concepts to unlock either formal apprenticeship or training by ordeal.

You're not likely to lose Hardened any time soon since you're about to fight a lot of war.

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So what does fanatic give the Peace Builders?

Also, when it comes to improving our concepts to retain hardened how far are we away from unlocking either formal apprenticeships or training by ordeal as it seems like we're not too far off. As it seems we already have informal apprenticeships for warriors and training by ordeal was a previous option.

So @Redium when you say we are about to fight a lot of wars, is that referencing conflicts with the tribes to the south of the Peace Builders?

Because that's what I'm guessing you are referring to. Or does the a lot also include the Mountain Clans as well?

Furthermore how does the fact that we chose not to recall our young Builders and the Ember Eyes from the Pearl Divers affect us next turn?

Redium said:

*Insert It's Happen GIF and Slow Mo Explosion*

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So they're about to collapse then? Is there any specific direction they are collapsing in as it seems like it should be in the direction of Arrow Lake or the Island Makers due to them causing the collapse.

Redium said:

Pretty good. You beat them with rolls of 85 and 86.

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What were our respective modifiers if you don't mind me asking?

Redium said:

As a Big Man and war-leader, his time is too valuable to be used setting up or taking down tents. Someone else needs to do it while he listens to scout reports, organizes further sorties, and oversees training.

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I got that part, I'm just curious why he saw that as a concession and a bad thing.

Redium said:

It's very common among Priit's faction. Uncommon elsewhere and reviled by the Shaman. The shaman generally blame the Northlander's foolishness and weakness for killing their High Shaman.

Nihkuko became Priit's Blood Brother after the latter saved the former's life. That at least was when Nihkuko pledged his intent, but Priit didn't respond to the desire for a while. Nihkuko has a tendency to grow on people like a barnacle. The relationship with him has been really good for Priit. His nightmares used to be a lot worse; violent episodes during the night that caused him to lash out. Nihkuko helped him deal with it.

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Yeah I can see why we have factional strife if this is the case.

Out of curiosity how many blood brothers does Priit have?

Redium said:

This is an innovation. You've had Flat Arrow Outlook long enough that you picked up Practice Fights as an entertainment concept. It doesn't help your warriors get better, but it does minimize rivalries by formalizing violence and where it's acceptable.

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So is that reflected in our concepts then?

Also do we need to do anything to retain this innovation or is it simple enough to remember?

Redium said:

Priit thought it might be useful for the war so he picked it up from some of the older traders that used to meet with the Northlands. It's come in very useful in interrogating captured Northlands warriors.

Priit can actually speak three languages (the People's, Peace Builder, and Northlands) and is passable in the pidgin used by traders from the Pearl Divers. Being a Big Man means that he's needed to pick up a lot of languages.

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Huh, I guess Priit is more intelligent than we gave him credit.

Redium said:

She was; Aloo was actually the woman that Aeva noticed in 17.2. She defected because she experienced abuse at the hands of the Northlands. Nihkuko was the one to initially capture her. Priit wanted to interrogate and either execute her or turn her own a Debtor as was standard practice. Hearing her story changed his mind because it resonated.

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Was she unique in her defection? So much so that others became more likely to defect with her, or was she the only one?

I'm curious to know if we have options to make them debtors or to vassalize them because of her.

Redium said:

There's a reason the Peace Builders have so many traits for social stability. Additionally, with all of the wars they're forced to fight down south, it's not like the pre-35 block is particularly large or powerful. They also get away with more because they're a Sacred Council; the shaman and spirits back up the leaders' decisions so arguing against it is hard.

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So are the Peace Builders fighting their wars a conscious decision to winnow down their under 35 crowd or is that just an unintended feature?

How enticing are we to the rest of the Peace Builders considering how easy it is for our tribe members to be seen as adults?

Aside from the right to being heard is there anything specific associated with being seen as an adult under the Peace Builders?

Redium said:

It was too strong.

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Why is that?

Also were some of the detriments changed to match or were they seen as still sufficient to counterbalance it?

Redium said:

When you voted to punish Priit you rewrote the law code and greatly expanded the power of the Big Men to punish and coerce. This is represented by Centralization so that score went up. You need 4 Centralization before you can change to Tribal Chieftain.

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That makes sense.

What other methods can we use to increase centralization that doesn't require us to rewrite the law code in order to perpetrate an injustice?

Will the Stone Age Law megaproject suffice?

Redium said:

The Northlands could survive without support, but if that happens, a lot of them are going to starve fairly soon.

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So there's a chance they could collapse then?

Redium said:

They've wracked up enough Debt that the currently living Northlanders would be paying it off for the rest of their lives. The war killed a lot of people. Their children would not be Debtors.

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So assuming they have children, will those children who are born to debtors essentially be born as free members of the People?

Also, as a reminder, we have rules in place to prevent abuse of debtors right? As I remember they do get fed and such so it's not abject slavery right?

Redium said:

It's basically vassalization, or as close as you can get in the current age.

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So what exactly does vassalization entail here? What exactly will this do to the Northlands and what do we need to do to support our vassal?

Redium said:

I realized I shorted you one Stability. You should be at Stability 0 right now.

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How did we gain so much stability out of curiosity as it seems like we were in a hole there?

Anyway here's my vote for this turn:

[X] [Victory] Take the Northlanders into the People as Debtors. (+3 Tiers of Economy)
[X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.

[X] [Victory] Take the Northlanders under the People's wing. (???)
[X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.

Guild economy, we are on the way!

[X] [Victory] Return things to how they were before the war. (Trade Mission: Northlands)
[X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.

[X] [Victory] Take the Northlanders into the People as Debtors. (+3 Tiers of Economy)
[X] [Adult] Gender complex, like the spirits. There are women-who-are-men and men-who-are-women and they should recieve the gender appropriate trial (+1 Stability)

[X] [Victory] Take the Northlanders under the People's wing. (???)
[X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.

[x] [Victory] Return things to how they were before the war. (Trade Mission: Northlands)
[x] [Victory] Take the Northlanders under the People's wing. (???)

[x] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.
[x] [Adult] The current trials, are sufficient but too restricted; recognize adults by parenthood or by food contribution without respect to gender. (+1 Stability)

[X] [Victory] Take the Northlanders into the People as Debtors. (+3 Tiers of Economy)

[X] [Adult] The franchise should be expanded: recognized Shaman (including members of Holy Orders) may speak as adults.
[X] [Adult] Gender complex, like the spirits. There are women-who-are-men and men-who-are-women and they should recieve the gender appropriate trial (+1 Stability)
[X] [Adult] Some positions generate implicit adulthood: the winner of an election to be head of a longhouse or Big Man is automatically an adult.

@Redium Would the Peace Builders approve of us taking the Northlanders under our wing? Would that give us any diplomatic bonuses with them?

Japanime said:

So in essence we would be reforming the Trials and decentralizing it correct? Would this form formal organizations like guilds of professions that set standards with which the trials are administered? Or would this be more like apprenticeships?

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More like formalized apprenticeships. Population density too low to form actual guilds, but we'd have the beginnings of the structure.

Based on my estimates of our population density and specialization level we're currently pretty early on the professional structures steps:
-Disorganized, professional work done as hobby or secondary skill to food production(everyone are men, women or weirdos/shamans)

-Recognition of professional work and skills as distinct source of productivity(this was when we recognized Warriors as a professional class rather than a hobby of Hunters, as well as the masons and other full time artisan types)

-Recognition of skill levels within a trade <- This is where the Trial update would come in.

-Formation of leading councils of seniors within a trade <- This is when the trades start becoming political since they now have organized influence.

-Formation of full time leaders/administrators within a trade <- This is when you actually have Guilds

How well is argument 2 when it comes to convincing Priit? As while that seems like a reasonable explanation for us, we probably do need to tailor our response in order to make sure this argument both works for the People and for Priit.

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Odds are good that Priit would agree with the argument(he would have brought it up because his female warriors were not recognized as votersadults if we didn't fuck him over to begin with) but disagrees with the person.

Also what is the distinction on why certain arguments grant stability compared to the others? What determines that?

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Stability comes from approaches which says "what you have been doing all the time is correct". The more dramatic the change the more dissent and thus the more painful in Stability.

Stability comes from where people find their preconceptions validated.

So shamans can't influence the direction of a conversation but they can input advice? That's what this seems like to me.

What if the conversation is on a topic inherently related to them such as magic or the spirits?

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Clarification: Every form of specialized knowledge is magic.
-The Skalds' use of storytelling cadence, chorus reinforcement, and rhetorical methods is magic. Its like their words just sink into you and shakes your soul!

-The Northlands riding moose is magic, for being able to make a beast move where you want, to stay upon its back at a gallop.

-The production of lime mortar from burning stone and shells is magic.

It'd be more accurate to consider the Shamans as experts on magic of the spirits, in dealing with the unknown and the unknowable.

How did that Amazonian tribe even function like that?

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Lots of polygamy, reduction in female rights, having large numbers of children...

So what does fanatic give the Peace Builders?

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We asked this one before.
Fanatic is more of a morale state, where they fight with great ferocity and tolerates much higher losses in an engagement.

Keeping in mind that in most forms of warfare, it's really a contest of whose will breaks first, and the damage dealt by and to either side is an attempt to break the other side. There are wars where one side took thrice as many casualties as the other side, but won because they didn't break.

The Fanatic will NOT break. They still need good weapons and training if they want to do anything other than scare enemies with how insane they are though.

So they're about to collapse then? Is there any specific direction they are collapsing in as it seems like it should be in the direction of Arrow Lake or the Island Makers due to them causing the collapse.

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Civilizations turning bandit via collapse are not discriminate. They spray in all directions because its a combination of refugees seeking any kind of refuges and warriors who have no skill other than killing people.

We're somewhat safe, but we really want those Hills soon.

I got that part, I'm just curious why he saw that as a concession and a bad thing.

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Behaving like the Big Men who abused their power is not something he wants any part of.

So is that reflected in our concepts then?

Also do we need to do anything to retain this innovation or is it simple enough to remember?

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As long as we have Flat Arrow Outlook and centralized government it's probably going to stay. This is basically trial by combat.

Why is that?

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Consider the effect of fortifications that strong. We'd have been able to stand off a bronze age sieging force with our stacked Hills + Walls defense bonuses.

How did we gain so much stability out of curiosity as it seems like we were in a hole there?

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Stability -2
Fight the Northlands +1
Stunning Victory +1

[X] [Victory] Take the Northlanders under the People's wing. (???)
[X] [Victory] Take the Northlanders into the People as Debtors. (+3 Tiers of Economy)
[X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.

[X] [Victory] Take the Northlanders under the People's wing. (???)
[X] [Victory] Take the Northlanders into the People as Debtors. (+3 Tiers of Economy)
[X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.

[X] [Victory] Take the Northlanders under the People's wing. (???)
[X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.