Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
I mean our society uses violence and murder a lot, especially over women...
From Stone to the Stars
- Thread starter Redium
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Boy, have you joined the wrong civ
.Pritt murdering people is literally seen as a normal thing based on our values. Flat Arrow Outlook.
Not so much in this case. The victory bought us the stability so we didn't have to take the trap reform options that make things worse while looking better superficially.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
I think we should try vassalizing them, It would do better than an underclass of slaves, and its better than slaughtering them. The only other option is trading with them to show our generosity.
The problem with vassalizing them is we took a Stability hit every time we did something similar previously from culture clashes, and also their holdings are too far away and too wide(I mean going by the map the Northlands territory is some 5-6 times larger than ours due to being nomads) for us to actually administrate.
We're currently at Stability -1. We don't really have a lot of leeway if we get greedy...
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
True, Damn if we had more stability we could absorb a shitton of land and resources later...
- Location
- USA
Once again the changes to the leaderboard are interesting.
Aside from our prestige increasing again, likely from taking all of the Northlands, not much has really changed for us.
@Redium Not sure if this has been answered but are hardened warriors a temporary trait in that we can only get i from veterancy in war but can't retain it? Also how does fanatic rate in comparison?
The Tribe of the West once again retains their previous position relative to us, though I'm surprised that their economy hasn't recovered yet.
Arrow Lake has vaulted upwards in terms of prestige, though their stats don't seem to reflect that. I'm mostly guessing this is to do with the poor state of the Mountain Clans, which suggests that they've been mauling them.
The Island Makers have improved as well likely for the same reasons as Arrow Lake I would guess.
The Peace Builders seem to have stayed where they are due to their loss of warriors. It's not too surprising really.
Pearl Divers have staid the same. I'm guessing we will find out how our efforts to aid them have turned out next turn then?
The Bond Breakers have leapfrogged the South Lake tribe even though they don't seem to have lost any prestige, making me wonder if they took a bite out of the Mountain Clans too.
South Lake seems the same.
The Mountain Clans seem done for at this point due to their warriors being scattered and their economy in ruins. @Redium Will the Mountain Clans still explode at this rate or no?
Also the Northlands have obviously been done in by us considering their destroyed military and economy.
Is this PTSD I assume?
How were the rolls this turn, just out of curiosity?
So, just wondering but will the geography and locations such as the Eastern Mountains be added to our map next turn I'm assuming, as it seems we have gone rather far.
What exactly about this was a concession for Priit? Maybe I'm confused here.
How prevalent an opinion is this? As this seems rather biased against Aeva, though it does have some basis in fact.
Out of curiosity, how did Nihkuko become Priit's Blood Brother anyway?
So essentially we now have a hardened core of veteran warriors, with the rest of our older warriors having been killed then, and with greener warriors now being raised right? How will this effect our future martial score, assuming we have time to raise a new generation? Will the hardening have a long term effect or merely a temporary one?
This seems like a rather new development. This does not seem to be the folk wrestling that was an option before when it came to training warriors, rather it seems like an entirely different thing, a sparring ring. As it has obvious martial purposes but also that of entertainment as well. Or am I wrong?
Assuming this is an innovation when it comes to training our warriors, do we need to do anything to keep it's effects?
Overall though this seems like a beneficial thing, as it might produce a way for our males to healthily compete when it comes to our Flat Arrow Outlook. The rivalries can be settled in more formal sparring circles and such, with betting being used as a way to trade favors on the side, while at the same time promoting martial values still.
How exactly did Priit learn the Northlander tongue?
Interesting to see another facet of him in any case as he isn't just another brute if he is intelligent enough to speak in the tongue of an entirely different people.
It's interesting to see here how Priit gained the followers he has. Was Alloo a warrior then, as this implies? If so, was she one of their mounted cavalry?
So, when it comes to the Skalds, how important are they when it comes to the Peace Builders? As they seem rather influential here, enough so that they seem like a different faction, or the leading voice of the Peace Builders, in that they seem to be directing policy when it comes to having some of their tribe join the People.
It's interesting to here how Kaspar is still being venerated in this time and age.
I'm guessing though that the two people mentioned when it comes to walking in Kaspar's footsteps are Aeva and Priit then?
Not surprising really when you look at the parallels.
Kaspar originally gained his status as a Big Man through serving on the front lines against the Hundred Bands, defying the tradition at the time of fighting in lots by staying at the front to lead when he should have instead gone back, thus earning the respect of his settlement, even managing to defuse an old faction in the Old Warriors through his guile. It was his leadership that would save the People and led to our pre-eminent status now. Priit, is similar in that he has become the defining figure in the war against the Northlands through his efforts at the front. It was he who single-handedly turned the tide of the war in our favor and handed us victory while preventing a collapse. However, he is a more tragic figure due to the injustices dealt upon him.
I won't be surprised if in the future Priit is venerated, as if he can get Stone Age Code of Laws passed, likely due to his vendetta against the injustice he was dealt, then he will have truly accomplished something great, even if a significant portion of the player base still seems to despise him.
It seems Priit is still very focused on Aeva as a threat, though it seems like he can control his anger here at least.
Wow...how do the Peace Builders even function with such a high requirement to become an adult? I mean, I'm not surprised about the vision quest thing, though it does make me curious how they accomplish such.
When it comes to the Peace Builder's new policy towards us, it seems like they are slowly trying to bind us closer together with them, which makes me believe that our showing in the war and our values make it seem like they think it is favorable for them to bind themselves into us through marriage even.
Is that a correct assessment, or is something more happening here @Redium ?
Was Supernal Symphony too strong as it was? Were any of the penalties regarding it reduced as well?
Also, how did we earn another level of centralization, and how much more do we need until we can change our government type?
When it comes to these options, my opinions are as follows.
Slaughtering them would be a waste. While it would indeed be a short term benefit, due to our low legitimacy it would only give us a score of 1 stability anyway which could be rectified once a change of leadership occurs. I also don't think any of us truly want to kill all of the Northlanders. They are not as reprehensible as South Lake was.
Letting them run away is just asking for them to return later and be vengeful against us. It's not worth the temporary stability gain to kick the can down the road. Many of us thought South Lake was finished, but lo and behold they're still here. Let's not bet again on this one when there are better options.
I'm not entirely sure about the third option, as while I would like for things to be like they were before the war, I don't know if the Northlands can survive as is independently. Their military is ravaged, with their warriors all slaughtered. This in turn affects their economy as their warriors and hunters were one and the same. With the majority of their likely fighting age population dead in their war against us, and their economy having collapsed, I don't know if the Northlands can bounce back from this without assistance.
Do the Northlands have enough people in their tribe to continue onwards if we chose this option @Redium ?
Taking the Northlanders as debtors will probably not be a popular option due to many likely comparing it to slavery. The +3 tiers of economy would be useful, and if we can make sure that eventually the Northlanders can graduate from being debtors into Tribe Members we can likely mitigate some of the damage this might create. After all, when we fought the Hundred Bands we did take many of their warriors into our tribe as captors and debtors, and we eventually were able to integrate them into our tribe, so this may be possible for us right now.
@Redium Would taking this option make them permanently debtors or after fulfilling their debt would the Northlanders become members of our tribe?
That being said I do believe that caution should be taken with this option as the economic benefit from this could lead to some of our People being more inclined to be lazy and letting the Northlanders do all their work for them due to the ease of having essentially slaves do most of the hard work. Though I think our elitism value can mitigate that.
The last option interests me as it is either us vassalizing the Northlanders, or integrating them.
@Redium Is the last option explicitly vassalization or is it us integrating them? If so what exactly are the effects of having a vassal? Will we still trade with them, are they still their own independent entity, will this lock us out from potentially trading for their Mammoths later on?
Here is the more important vote.
The first option regarding Aeva's mention of the Shaman seems the most conservative choice, as while everyone will likely accept the argument as most people already see the Shaman as adults, this option also doesn't really change much for our society and I don't think it would let us get Stone Age Law.
The second option is the most complex from what I can see. One of the first things we need to determine is, are mothers considered to be a profession @Redium ?
But in general this seems to remind me of us creating a primal guild system of sorts where each profession has an apprenticeship system of sorts that grants members privileges when they advance, with the goal here being adulthood. This would likely help us a lot considering how we have dedicated professions for roles not related to food creation, such as stone workers, shamans, politicians, and warriors. In terms of how this would likely play out regarding the argument between Priit and Aeva, I think this would be a sound choice. For Aeva as the shamans are considered a profession unto themselves, including the Holy Orders, she would qualify as an adult under this, something Priit can't gainsay. For Priit, considering the QM's mention of how if we had not had Aeva vote against him, he would've brought up female warriors, I think this option may work for him. After all, this option does not seem to delineate via gender so female warriors should be possible under this choice.
The third option seems good in that it is a gender neutral option. However, it might have unintended consequences as by giving the men an easier out through fathering children they may not be pressured to excel like they did before as it's easier not to. I'm not entirely sure if this will reduce our elitism value. Plus, if we look into this option through the lens of how will this play out against Priit and how will it help Aeva, I'm not entirely sure it helps Aeva here. Even with this argument I'm not sure if she still would be considered an adult as Aeva wouldn't be considered a food contributor.
Yeah...the fourth option seems like a trap to me like @veekie said.
The fifth option is just bad as I doubt Priit would accept her reasoning here and see it as Aeva essentially scheming to keep power, and the precedent it creates likely won't be good for us.
In short my current vote would look something like either:
[ ] [Victory] Return things to how they were before the war. (Trade Mission: Northlands)
[ ] [Victory] Take the Northlanders into the People as Debtors. (+3 Tiers of Economy)
[ ] [Victory] Take the Northlanders under the People's wing. (???)
[ ] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.
It'd probably stick around for a few generations provided we have a locked in Improve Martial type action. The edge dulls eventually without writing and formal means of retaining the experience, but all the new warriors are taught by special forces veterans and the baseline quality and expectation are much harsher.
Remember they had a Hero.
I believe this is their exploding. Scattered warriors without an economy means an entire civilization is about to be forced to turn bandit soon.
Priit is a strong independent hunter who prefers to pack up his tent himself. But the Big Man's title requires him to delegate this task to someone else(because this way he can spend more time planning, leading and fighting, which is more efficient than him wasting time on menial work), which goes poorly with him.
Easily. We have an entire generation of traders to teach, the languages in such scenarios are often closely related(you can usually go from Language A to Pidgin AB to Language B). Its a lot more like learning a different dialect.
Plus he spent like a decade up there by now.
Adulthood is defined by ability to vote and make decisions for the tribe.
You can marry and all that, you just can't vote.
Thats where the Trade comes in. With their hunters butchered, our sugar export is going to be critical to their surviving the winters.
Its a giant trap. Bearing a child is an enormous risk for a woman, theres a lot of deaths(and generally reduced lifespans) in their first birth, which is why its a suitable judgement of value to the tribe, and it requires that they have a stable source of food for an extended period of being unable to do any strenous work.
Heck, Priit himself got married at about 14.
- Location
- USA
If we take his words to mean that he would only abide the total slaughter of the Northlands as the only option, then yes it might be, but when we look at the update itself I think we can potentially parse his words to mean more than just that.
Looking at Priit's words in the update here he says that he wants to destroy the Northlands, later clarifying that he sees them as a threat and that he wants to destroy them so that they will never be threats again.
While slaughtering the Northlands wholesale like the first option indicates would likely accomplish that, the way he worded things makes me believe that there are other ways we can destroy the Northlands apart from killing them all.
Running them off so that they leave and never come back is one thing, after all out of sight out of mind.
Similarly, taking them all as debtors implies that we are dissolving the Northlands Tribe as a coherent entity and incorporating them into the People in a way that works for us and effectively destroys the Northlands as a polity.
When it comes to vassalage that too in a way destroys the Northlands as a threat, though to a lesser degree, even though I am not sure whether that last option is vassalage or integration.
Essentially my point is that the destruction of the Northlands here can be more nuanced than just killing them all. I believe all we need to do here is to destroy them as a threat.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
I prity Pritt. I really do. It must suck living your life surrounded by your enemies. Unfortunately, pity does not make him a good leader. He might be skilled getting what he wants through violence, but leaders who are skilled at getting what they want through violence do not create stable legacies.
The only chance he has to make a lasting legacy and stable polity here is because anyone who remembers otherwise is dead.
Look at Genghis Khan, Charlemagne, various Roman generals, Alexander the great, the list goes on. All of them were charismatic leaders, brilliant strategists, and great warriors. Very few of them had a head for statesmanship, with the possible exception of Ceasar.
All of them had the powerful empires they built fall apart as soon as they died, with their families disappearing under mysterious circumstances. That is likely to happen to Pritt. He has no head for policy, no subtlety in anything that he does.
He only has enemies, and a desire to crush them.
What will happen to his family if someone he crushed has a kid, and they grow up to be big man and he then dies?
Or what if he designates his kid as a successor?
Well, he did the Klingon promotion. They might take a stab at it too. Literally. It is unlikely that either the would be successor, or their enemies, would be as good as Pritt.
So you would have a chain of Klingon promotions. This does not make for stability.
So, sorry the kid had a rough life, but he needs to be kept far away from power.
At least that is my opinion.
The only chance he has to make a lasting legacy and stable polity here is because anyone who remembers otherwise is dead.
Look at Genghis Khan, Charlemagne, various Roman generals, Alexander the great, the list goes on. All of them were charismatic leaders, brilliant strategists, and great warriors. Very few of them had a head for statesmanship, with the possible exception of Ceasar.
All of them had the powerful empires they built fall apart as soon as they died, with their families disappearing under mysterious circumstances. That is likely to happen to Pritt. He has no head for policy, no subtlety in anything that he does.
He only has enemies, and a desire to crush them.
What will happen to his family if someone he crushed has a kid, and they grow up to be big man and he then dies?
Or what if he designates his kid as a successor?
Well, he did the Klingon promotion. They might take a stab at it too. Literally. It is unlikely that either the would be successor, or their enemies, would be as good as Pritt.
So you would have a chain of Klingon promotions. This does not make for stability.
So, sorry the kid had a rough life, but he needs to be kept far away from power.
At least that is my opinion.
It would effectively give the determination of trials over to each profession. A stonecutter would be recognized as an adult whenever they meet the criteria that stonecutters set determine to be admission. Same for warriors, shaman, tanners, flint/obsidian knappers, fishermen, etc.
In argument 2, Aeva would be arguing that the Trials laid down by her father were more metaphorical than literal. Instead of explicitly having to provide the tribe more meat than you eat, you would instead need to cultivate a useful skill and become recognized as proficient in the art. Aeva would argue that's what she was doing all along, as was intended.
In argument 3, Aeva would argue that both women and men could become adults be either 1) having children, or 2) contributing more food to the tribe than they need, instead of being gender specific. She would argue, successfully, that she fulfilled the second criteria to obtain her right to vote.
Shamans are respected, but outcast. If they insert themselves into a disucssion, they will be listened to, but they won't be part of the conversation. It's difficult to explain with modern sensibilities. They're important, significant figures, but also ones held at arms length.
You're pretty bad about that, but not as worse as it could be. There was one horticulturalist Amazonian tribe I recall reading about where 60% of men die by murder. You're probably only sitting around 20% or so.
Hardened is temporary unless: 1) you continue fighting wars, or 2) manage to improve your Concepts to unlock either formal apprenticeship or training by ordeal.
You're not likely to lose Hardened any time soon since you're about to fight a lot of war.
*Insert It's Happen GIF and Slow Mo Explosion*
Yes.
Pretty good. You beat them with rolls of 85 and 86.
The eastern mountains are on the map. They're the darkly coloured green bit north of the Pearl Diver's westernmost settlement.
As a Big Man and war-leader, his time is too valuable to be used setting up or taking down tents. Someone else needs to do it while he listens to scout reports, organizes further sorties, and oversees training.
It's very common among Priit's faction. Uncommon elsewhere and reviled by the Shaman. The shaman generally blame the Northlander's foolishness and weakness for killing their High Shaman.
Nihkuko became Priit's Blood Brother after the latter saved the former's life. That at least was when Nihkuko pledged his intent, but Priit didn't respond to the desire for a while. Nihkuko has a tendency to grow on people like a barnacle. The relationship with him has been really good for Priit. His nightmares used to be a lot worse; violent episodes during the night that caused him to lash out. Nihkuko helped him deal with it.
This is an innovation. You've had Flat Arrow Outlook long enough that you picked up Practice Fights as an entertainment concept. It doesn't help your warriors get better, but it does minimize rivalries by formalizing violence and where it's acceptable.
Priit thought it might be useful for the war so he picked it up from some of the older traders that used to meet with the Northlands. It's come in very useful in interrogating captured Northlands warriors.
Priit can actually speak three languages (the People's, Peace Builder, and Northlands) and is passable in the pidgin used by traders from the Pearl Divers. Being a Big Man means that he's needed to pick up a lot of languages.
She was; Aloo was actually the woman that Aeva noticed in 17.2. She defected because she experienced abuse at the hands of the Northlands. Nihkuko was the one to initially capture her. Priit wanted to interrogate and either execute her or turn her own a Debtor as was standard practice. Hearing her story changed his mind because it resonated.
There's a reason the Peace Builders have so many traits for social stability. Additionally, with all of the wars they're forced to fight down south, it's not like the pre-35 block is particularly large or powerful. They also get away with more because they're a Sacred Council; the shaman and spirits back up the leaders' decisions so arguing against it is hard.
It was too strong.
When you voted to punish Priit you rewrote the law code and greatly expanded the power of the Big Men to punish and coerce. This is represented by Centralization so that score went up. You need 4 Centralization before you can change to Tribal Chieftain.
The Northlands could survive without support, but if that happens, a lot of them are going to starve fairly soon.
They've wracked up enough Debt that the currently living Northlanders would be paying it off for the rest of their lives. The war killed a lot of people. Their children would not be Debtors.
It's basically vassalization, or as close as you can get in the current age.
Yes.
15, but that was unusual. Most people (like Priit's wife) were in their earth twenties when they officially marriage.
The first choice is Priit's. The second is Aeva's.
I realized I shorted you one Stability. You should be at Stability 0 right now.
Vote Open!
The Northlanders are on the ropes, beaten into submission. How should the war end? (+1 Stability for winning the war)
[ ] [Victory] Slaughter them. (+2 Stability)
[ ] [Victory] Allow them to run, tail between their legs. (+1 Stability)
[ ] [Victory] Return things to how they were before the war. (Trade Mission: Northlands)
[ ] [Victory] Take the Northlanders into the People as Debtors. (+3 Tiers of Economy)
[ ] [Victory] Take the Northlanders under the People's wing. (???)
How did Aeva flesh out her argument over adulthood and franchise?
[ ] [Adult] The franchise should be expanded: recognized Shaman (including members of Holy Orders) may speak as adults.
[ ] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.
[ ] [Adult] The current trials, are sufficient but too restricted; recognize adults by parenthood or by food contribution without respect to gender. (+1 Stability)
[ ] [Adult] Gender complex, like the spirits. There are women-who-are-men and men-who-are-women and they should recieve the gender appropriate trial (+1 Stability)
[ ] [Adult] Some positions generate implicit adulthood: the winner of an election to be head of a longhouse or Big Man is automatically an adult.
Um, now that I think about it, his dialouge, whenever he talks about Aeva, is always kind of...off, especially the bit about hurting him. It kind of reverted to something somewhat childlike...
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
[X] [Victory] Take the Northlanders into the People as Debtors. (+3 Tiers of Economy)
[X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.
Their children are not slaves.
Err Debtors. w/e
[X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.
Their children are not slaves.
Err Debtors. w/e
Last edited:
Sol Zagato
senseless brute
[X] [Victory] Take the Northlanders into the People as Debtors. (+3 Tiers of Economy)
[X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.
[X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] [Victory] Take the Northlanders under the People's wing. (???)
[X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.
Knowing that this is Pritt IC making the choice about the northlands, I think i'm gonna go for this option, to get vassals as a concept and keep a buffer to the north. I don't mind mass indebting them though.
[X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.
Knowing that this is Pritt IC making the choice about the northlands, I think i'm gonna go for this option, to get vassals as a concept and keep a buffer to the north. I don't mind mass indebting them though.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
[X] [Victory] Take the Northlanders into the People as Debtors. (+3 Tiers of Economy)
[X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.
[X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.
[X] [Victory] Return things to how they were before the war. (Trade Mission: Northlands)
[X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.
Do Debtors belong under their profession still?
[X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.
Do mothers count as a profession via grandfather clause?
Do Debtors belong under their profession still?
Last edited:
Changed my vote to vassalize instead. Having slaves is good but I suppose we can just get them from the incoming wars instead. I'd rather have them under our protection and as a buffer up north. Seems a little stronger than going with just trade, especially with how weak they are now. Should allow us access to their mounted warriors for any upcoming
wars as well.Article: