Even Further Beyond [Complete]

I'm still surprised that peope think that there are any Celestial Orbs in reserve, rather than the Fates having splurged all of them on the Age of Glory heroes to better kill Kong Zhang.

That's if Celestial Orbs exist as anything beyond a unit of account.

Alratan said:

I'm still surprised that peope think that there are any Celestial Orbs in reserve, rather than the Fates having splurged all of them on the Age of Glory heroes to better kill Kong Zhang.

That's if Celestial Orbs exist as anything beyond a unit of account.

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To be fair, the idea of stealing Orbs originally came from a Rihaku post:

Rihaku said:

You could try to steal some Celestial Orbs! Follow in Wukong's footsteps...

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That tends to make it reasonable to assume it would be a plan which at least had some chance of success and being useful.

I'm not sure that it's viable, but willing to pursue an the possibility anyway. Anyway, even if there aren't any Orbs, Heaven must have something worth stealing.

In case we get an update soon, have a tally, so we (read: Rihaku) know what the votes look like at the moment.

Work has kept me very busy, I hope to have time tomorrow to update. As normal, the vote will not close until I start writing.

Shard said:

I wonder what fanwork earned 1 BP from Rihaku..

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Someone commissioned a fanart, but it's not finished yet.

Xantalos said:

Judging by how the Veil worsens Spoiled and the Lich worsens Vengeful, I'd also posit that the extrusions of the other titans also effect their personalities in a similar fashion - Shen's emanation probably makes him way more stoic than he'd otherwise be depending on how high he has it cranked up, and Zang's is likely the cause of his unnatural mirth - his is the joy of a dragon taking an endless flight.

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They do not have Elven tier heroic passion, however.

Okay, strategic voting time (no pun intended). R.I.P., I'll Face Myself. Yu Narukami we are not.
[X] Strategic Complexion
[X] Extra Diligent
I'm dead set on choosing at least one option to better ourselves. Still not convinced that Extra Diligent has a chance to remove Spoiled, but a possible chance is better than abandoning the field right after our overwhelming vote for change. Of the other two I still prefer postponing Incarnation in the hope of having more Beyond Points available when our next batch of Truespells opens up. An FB or EFB True Palimpsest appeals to me. Also like the idea of adventuring in the Overgrowth to put the Necromancer synergy to work.
[X] Open the Way
[X] Amplification
Boosting Amplification to hopefully push it past Form of Balance, and keep our Palimpsest options open.

[X] Amplification
[X] I'll Face Myself

I've somewhat reconciled myself with I'll Face Myself and think opportunity cost in power gained is worth it with Pursuit of the Truth or Extra Diligent.

It's essentially going to see a therapist, which will likely be helpful for Nameless and unlock the true power of our Extrusion.

We have one day, that is enough time to work on this vote. Removing Spoiled is sry important- Nameless won't stop enjoying himself, but we need to progress his character beyond being a Spoiled young master who is competent but hamstrung by his nature.

We've never had a hero ever fully work out the flaws in their personality - this is a valuable opportunity to progress Nameless' character beyond Spoiled memes, sorely needed with the ending maybe coming up soon.

I don't like face myself cause in story the motivation seems to be to get shinier, not a genuine desire to change who we are. I think in a character building vote the reason why is just as important as the result.

andy50 said:

I don't like face myself cause in story the motivation seems to be to get shinier, not a genuine desire to change who we are. I think in a character building vote the reason why is just as important as the result.

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It's the only option that does nothing relating to our contest with the heroine or building our power. If Nameless went that far, he's serious about toning down his hedonism. And for all we know fate could be nudging Aurelia against helping us.

Also, nameless's reasoning is at least partially vengeance, with power being tangential.

"At this point I'm nearly past caring," Nameless admitted. "I just want it to get its comeuppance. Even if that means self-reform."

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[x]Pursuit of the Truth
[x]I'll Face Myself

[x]Amplification
[x]Open the Way

[X] Strategic Complexion
[X] Extra Diligent
[X] Open the Way
[X] Amplification

Nice, healthy set of options.
Nothing crazy, just taking care of ourselves.

andy50 said:

I don't like face myself cause in story the motivation seems to be to get shinier, not a genuine desire to change who we are. I think in a character building vote the reason why is just as important as the result.

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The desire to change who Nameless is comes entirely from himself; it's just that his ability to follow through is lacking.

That's the point of a trainer, to push someone (with their consent) towards a desired outcome they cannot normally achieve on their own due to procrastination

Aurelia is just a highly charismatic and effective psychologist to me, not something crazy.

I mean, even Ulyssian relied on others for things he couldn't do like Nilul socialised for him. We can't be the metaphorical physician who can heal ourself, so we'll rely on our loyal wife to fill that role- she is very good at it!

Aoinfinity said:

Okay, strategic voting time (no pun intended). R.I.P., I'll Face Myself. Yu Narukami we are not.

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Any chance of at least getting an approval vote for it? It won'r matter, but I want it to be there if it somehow makes a recovery...

Also, note that it's possible to retrain Truespells with some Essence expenditure, or perhaps even not take them immediately, so wanting to have stronger Diagrams to make True isn't the best of reasons for passing up the chance to no-sell a (significant?) weapon in the Heroine's arsenal plus access a Hidden Synergy (and at least an 0.5 Stage all-purpose boost, of course). (Additionally, we can't get EFB Palimpsest, that was Liminal-only. We can already afford FB, though.)

RedV said:

The desire to change who Nameless is comes entirely from himself; it's just that his ability to follow through is lacking.

That's the point of a trainer, to push someone (with their consent) towards a desired outcome they cannot normally achieve on their own due to procrastination

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Well, I'm not sure it's entirely procrastination. He doesn't seem to dislike being spoiled, but he clearly dislikes his Extrusion being spoiled. While from a distance we can of course determine this to be pure cognitive dissonance, that doesn't make untangling the psychic snarl any easier.

I figure there's more to it than habit, if he's reluctant even in the face of Heroic Vengeance. His Emanation is about epicurean self-gratification and its commensurate loss of industry. The psychological implications of that are pretty staggering - altering it's going to be weird, not just tough.

Honestly? "I'll Face Myself" has been growing on me a lot. I'm comparing our current situation to that of Nameless Prince's starting situation, and we seem to be way ahead on all fronts save one:

Rihaku said:

*Heroic Passion is avoided because the worst enemy for someone this powerful is themselves.

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Just the fact that Nameless can only "motivate himself" to pick two out of the four options implies heavily that motivation is becoming a major bottleneck in our ability to take action.

If you think of I'll Face Myself as an investment that will result in effectively having more actions further down the line, it becomes a lot more appealing. Actually remaining on-target and consistent with our previous vote is nice too, and it's a Persona Reference as a bonus.

As such, switching vote to:

[X] I'll Face Myself
[X] Strategic Complexion

[X] Open The Way
[X] Amplification

[X] I'll Face Myself
[X] Extra Diligent

I'm pretty happy with letting the cards fall where they may re: Truespells.

Redshirt Army said:

If you think of I'll Face Myself as an investment that will result in effectively having more actions further down the line, it becomes a lot more appealing. Actually remaining on-target and consistent with our previous vote is nice too, and it's a Persona Reference as a bonus.

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Yes! This is (one of the reasons) why it's worthwhile: our current restrictions on actions are because of a lack of motivation, and increasing that motivation is thus immensely valuable for not only the next ten months, but the future after that as well! Really, it's worth it!

I'm already voting for I'll Face Myself, but I might as well compile some arguments:

Mechanically - Being Spoiled has been the second most limiting factor in this whole quest, second only to the Heroine and Kong. We gave up eastern Yong because Spoiled would have crippled us. We cultivated (and may still cultivate) inefficiently because we we too spoiled to meditate effectively. We very nearly spent our vault on mitigating Spoiled early on. Titanomachy was fairly inefficient because we had to waste an unbelievable amount of time and resources as the result of a spoiled proc. The heroic passion has essentially wasted our emanation on something that utterly fails to scale to our level, and is literally suicidal in the immediate term given our tie to the empire. Even now, the primary obstacle to our growth is Being Spoiled

Rihaku said:

the worst enemy for someone this powerful is themselves

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Narrativelly - I imagine that Nameless went into A spoiled brat way back in childhood 1 understanding the associated cost. He traded his future progress for immediate power, the only time we've done so in any significant capacity in this quest, and now, after reaching the cusp of immortality we have a chance to cash in the priceless incarnate oath, waifu SL, and year of timeskip for a chance to organically become someone worthy of immortality

Rihaku said:

The manifest soul of a Titan stitched to an Immortal's might: what wonders and horrors might he manifest here?

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Diligence does nothing to solve the underlying problem of Nameless' motivation, just kicks it down the curb for us to deal with the tribulation confronts Nameless with his flaws, the inevitable escalation once we enter the immortal community, or the heroine leverages spoiled to get her social hooks in us.

We have a chance to be better, to be worthy of our power. Should we not choose the best path available to us, no matter the cost?

[X] I'll Face Myself (with Aurelia)
[X] Strategic Complexion
[X] Open the Way
[X] Amplification

Eh, why not?

Or you could try and read the quest

"At this point I'm nearly past caring," Nameless admitted. "I just want it to get its comeuppance. Even if that means self-reform."

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Nameless doesn't want to get better, he wants to stick it to the Lich.

Which is dumb fucking reason for doing something like this, so we shouldn't do it.

Wolfy said:

Nameless doesn't want to get better, he wants to stick it to the Lich.

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Spiting your negative self is totally something that people just do.

It happens a lot, and if it gets results ,why does it matter?

Wolfy said:

Which is dumb fucking reason for doing something like this, so we shouldn't do it.

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This is all but directly an invocation of the Fallacy Fallacy. The fact that Nameless's reasoning is poor doesn't mean removing Spoiled is any less valuable, it just means that we, out-pf-character, have an in-character reason for having it happen. While sticking it to the Lich may be a bad reason, the fact that Spoiled decreases our productivity, costs us time when we need time, and is only made worse by our Emanation --- not to mention the fact that we have direct WoQM that:

Rihaku said:

Spoiled is a pretty useless passion

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so I doubt we'll get any significant benefits from it. I don't see anything which justifies keeping it around, and on the other hand increasing our work ethic over the next ten months should give quite a bit of benefit even if it doesn't fully pay back the time we spend, and then there's the chance to get an Emanation which is actually helpful for something.

In a very real sense, we have a way of not just beating the Fates here, but the setting itself.

Everything about the Labyrinth Empire is built around the combination of violent ambition and casual excess. Might is a purpose all its own, overshadowing everything else. The elves tear their hearts and souls apart to craft artifacts for protection. The diagram turned human beings into guinea pigs for their truth. Cultivators compete viciously over resources and routinely kill each other over petty pride.

Across the board, the greatest are the most broken. The diminished copes with untreated spiritual depression. The lich endures eternity within an insensate shell. The titan enslaves himself to a false idol of his own making.

But our power is bound only to our will. We can choose to make virtue and power align. Might would serve right, not become it. We would only have to find a worth for virtue at all: a counterbalance for the cynicism Nameless inherited from his father.

Our might will open the way, but we need the will to choose. Our wife can spare us that will. She can show us the door.

Silverias said:

Spiting your negative self is totally something that people just do.

It happens a lot, and if it gets results ,why does it matter?

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Because

a) We are still Vengeful
b) Our Extrusion will still be include against us, as per Monster Vault's "from adversary comes strength" and
c) We just did something to massively spite our Extrusion for dumb fucking reason and we have no idea if we will have ability to turn it off by turning into a Scepter

This is not hard to grasp: if reason for doing something is idiotic, you don't do it.

Wolfy said:

a) We are still Vengeful

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So the objection is that getting rid of only Spoiled didn't go far enough? I mean, I'd be happy of we could also get rid of Vengeful, but refusing to deal with one if we can't deal with both at once seems a bit of a high bar, and dealing with one at a time and rather more doable.

Wolfy said:

b) Our Extrusion will still be include against us, as per Monster Vault's "from adversary comes strength" and

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(I'm assuming you mean "inclined" out something similar here.) But there are much healthier forms of adversity than refusing to help. If the Extrusion just played devil's advocate for all our ideas, for instance, that would be adversity but actually helpful. If it provided a friendly rival which actually has a chance of matching us, that would be even better. Right now it's a bump in the road to overcome.

Wolfy said:

c) We just did something to massively spite our Extrusion for dumb fucking reason and we have no idea if we will have ability to turn it off by turning into a Scepter

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This is blatantly false, in that we have complete control over it as per the original choice. Additionally, if its personality changes I don't see why it would still object to us making the change — remember, after the shift it should be roughly on the same page as us, and thus should agree that was the right thing to do. This action may be motivated by spite, but it still has significant benefits in the form of an increased work ethic, which should be reasonably apparent to Nameless post-change, and thus similarly to the Extrusion.

(And, again, objecting to the fact that Nameless has a bad reason when we OOC have a good one is, again, the Fallacy Fallacy. He may not have a good reason, but we do.)