Remove ads

Even Further Beyond [Complete]

Reader mode
Wolfy said:
This is not hard to grasp: if reason for doing something is idiotic, you don't do it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Technically, if what you're considering is idiotic, then you don't do it.

Nameless is a smart guy. He can find corroborating evidence where it concerns him. His intent is to obtain strength enough to avenge the Diagram and beat the Fates' game. All options presented filter that way, so none of them are beyond reason.
 
For I'll Face Myself - I'm pretty sure it can raise Aurelia's loyalty if we trust her in this fashion and take her options, which could make her a Lieutenant at Loyalty 8 (last benchmark for making her a Lieutenant). We are more likely to raise Loyalty by taking her options, so I'd like to experiment and see if she can be made into a Lieutenant, or if we can unlock her Loyalty Event.
 
Last edited:
I've tried arranging the Diagram Signs in a pairwise-manner. This should be my.. second or third attempt at making one that makes themat

Truth/Seeming: Per Rihaku - For there to be a Truth, there must be a Not-Truth.
Space/Time: Well.. spacetime.
Essence (Sacrifice)/Death: Essence takes of the self, while Death takes of others, preserves the self.
Blood/Flesh: Flesh and blood, two parts of a body.
Stone/Force: Matter and Energy, two sides of the same coin.
Fate/Knowledge: Thematics. One magic sees and controls outcomes (Fate), another sees and controls information (Knowledge).
 
I would put Fate/Stone together, actually.

Fate, in context of the Fate Sign, is the ability to decide outcomes. Our Forge changes the end result of Artifice without seeming to affect the process of Artifice itself.

Stone affects the organism but does not have foreseeable effects/outcomes generally like how we don't know what the result of casting Kleinvarr's Refining on ingredients does exactly or what exactly Alvan's Balm does.

Seems more linked in some odd way, but maybe I'm being overly specific and focusing on only one side of it. Maybe the Diagram wasn't made to be sorted into neat pairs!
 
Last edited:
RedV said:
For I'll Face Myself - I'm pretty sure it can raise Aurelia's loyalty if we trust her in this fashion and take her options, which could make her a Lieutenant at Loyalty 8 (last benchmark for making her a Lieutenant). We are more likely to raise Loyalty by taking her options, so I'd like to experiment and see if she can be made into a Lieutenant, or if we can unlock her Loyalty Event.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Regarding Aurelia's Lieutenancy, we've been down this road before. We bet on increased Loyalty giving us a Lieutenant buff with Lovey-Dovey, and the benefit doesn't seem to have materialized. Rihaku's said that at this point we've mostly outscaled what the Fates can do to tow our companions along in Nameless' wake anyway. Maybe going from seven to eight would do the trick, matching the initial Lover's Oath, but historically Loyalty-increasing options have been clearly labeled. Aurelia is actually against this, something that helped sell me on her character, so it's unlikely I'll Face Myself will do anything to bolster her affections.
 
Orm Embar said:
Regarding Aurelia's Lieutenancy, we've been down this road before. We bet on increased Loyalty giving us a Lieutenant buff with Lovey-Dovey, and the benefit doesn't seem to have materialized. Rihaku's said that at this point we've mostly outscaled what the Fates can do to tow our companions along in Nameless' wake anyway. Maybe going from seven to eight would do the trick, matching the initial Lover's Oath, but historically Loyalty-increasing options have been clearly labeled. Aurelia is actually against this, something that helped sell me on her character, so it's unlikely I'll Face Myself will do anything to bolster her affections.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I believe that relying on her and solving our problems together as a team will increase progress towards that loyalty event, should it exist.

Besides, Loyalty event is a side benefit in my mind - I want to have a disney-esque scene (Aurelia is so much this character) where the power of love and trust convince Nameless to shed his indolence and such issues that cripple his effectiveness.

I've realized that while Spoiled was nice for some time, we shouldn't sacrifice the chance for meaningful character progression and a deep show of faith & love to keep it - it is part of the reason we're having an ineffective timeskip, we voted to largely focus on progressing past Spoiled last time, etc.

This arc where Nameless meets Aurelia and the Extrusion is about him confronting his own personal feelings and realising that deep in his heart of hearts he still desires to change from who he is to a better him-that-could-be. At the close of this arc, when we're going to fight the final battle against the Heroine, I want us to have a satisfying closure here by co-operating with someone to work past a deeply-rooted flaw.
 
Last edited:
RedV said:
I would put Fate/Stone together, actually.

Fate, in context of the Fate Sign, is the ability to decide outcomes. Our Forge changes the end result of Artifice without seeming to affect the process of Artifice itself.

Stone affects the organism but does not have foreseeable effects/outcomes generally like how we don't know what the result of casting Kleinvarr's Refining on ingredients does exactly or what exactly Alvan's Balm does.

Seems more linked in some odd way, but maybe I'm being overly specific and focusing on only one side of it. Maybe the Diagram wasn't made to be sorted into neat pairs!
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This would leave Force (Energy) and Knowledge (Divination) without a suitable pair, however.

Interestingly enough, under D&D, which Diagram is somewhat based on, spells that affect Outcomes, like Change Fate or Alter Fortune or Choose Destiny fall under 'Divination', which also has the eponymous Scrying spells.
 
Wolfy said:
Or you could try and read the quest
Nameless doesn't want to get better, he wants to stick it to the Lich.

Which is dumb fucking reason for doing something like this, so we shouldn't do it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Hey, I wonder what happens if I read the sentence after the one you quoted:
Rihaku said:
"You're right," He sighed. "And if that were the only reason, this would be nothing more than an unproductive vendetta. However, I have been meaning to cut down on the hedonism. If I work for two years and win, I can probably slack off for thousands more afterwards. If it's to the point where my Extrusion can't even see that, then my proclivities have gone too far."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Whoops.
 
RedV said:
I believe that relying on her and solving our problems together as a team will increase progress towards that loyalty event, should it exist.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
"Dearest Aura in order to help us bond I've decided you shall help me blind myself with this knife."

"Darling I don't think this is a good way to get rid of the Eyes of Kong or see how it would help us grow closer."

"Silly Aura, we'll be cutting my eyes out together."
 
[X] I'll Face Myself

Changed my mind.
There are heights greater still. Staying Spoiled will keep Nameless from ever reaching them.
 
UDwarf said:
Any chance of at least getting an approval vote for it? It won'r matter, but I want it to be there if it somehow makes a recovery...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Are approval votes allowed in this Quest? I doubt there's enough time left in the vote right now to wait for confirmation, so...

[X] I'll Face Myself
[X] Extra Diligent
At this stage my first priority is for at least one of these to win. Though IFM is still a longshot, the last-minute surge gives me hope that it may still be within the discussion threshold.

[X] Open the Way
[X] Amplification
 
Could we please not snatch defeat from the jaws of victory? We have very clear path to the victory, and drastic changes with dubious benefits are not part of it.
 
I want to see Nameless finally get rid of the effects of spoiled and embrace Vengeance, as it was meant to be! Surely Nothing can go wrong!
 
Last edited:
Vengeance maybe help us in will power contest against Heroine thought.

But I will go with original plan of extra diligence and seeker of truth.
 
Given the sudden onslaught of "I'll Face Myself" votes I figure now would be a good time to argue against it:

Make no mistake, I want to get rid of Spoiled, I voted for Nameless to Try to Change, after all, but this isn't the way to do it.

First off, I want to remind people that this option doesn't see Nameless bettering himself under his own efforts, but he's essentially asking Aurelia to use her undiminished charisma to change him, and by taking her away from her own work at that. This will not be the last time to get rid of Spoiled, but this does show Nameless impatience in trying to change immediately through elven charisma than taking it slower.

Also, doing so immediately, right now, without any sort of consultation from our Lieutenants will definitely hurt our standing with Xiaoling. She's still coming to terms that we're married now - if we just get rid of Spoiled (the key trait that she and Nameless have in common) without at least talking to her first than that will negatively impact her Loyalty. And because she didn't hear from Nameless that this is something he wants of his free will than she is only left to assume the facts herself - and on their own the facts don't look good. After all, prior to coming here and marrying Aurelia Nameless did not seem to dislike himself, but now he wants to change and is willing to go so far as to get Aurelia to change him? She'll definitely be left thinking that the Elven maiden tricked/convinced him into it.

Also, and I wasn't sure I wanted to bring this up as it stinks of fearmongering, but I'm going to say it anyway - the possibility of Xiaoling leaving us to go back home needs to be considered.

Think about it - she doesn't have fanatic Loyalty like Suizhen, she also is not a orphan or homeless like the other girl. She made up some sort of excuse to initially join Nameless but by now I think it's clear that she stayed by his side through it all because she liked him - definitely as a friend and possibly with the intent to marry him at a later date. But with the option of marrying him (at least as the first wife) off the table and him suddenly changing behind her back I think Xiaoling's Loyalty ill definitely be tested. If we are going to ask Aurelia to change us I at least want to speak to Xiaoling first and do some preemptive damage control.

I at least want to touch back base with both our Lieutenants before we do something irreversible.
 
Last edited:
BlueFlamingWings said:
First off, I want to remind people that this option doesn't see Nameless bettering himself under his own efforts, but he's essentially asking Aurelia to use her undiminished charisma to change him, and by taking her away from her own work at that. This will not be the last time to get rid of Spoiled, but this does show Nameless impatience in trying to change immediately through elven charisma than taking it slower.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yes, he is asking her to help him change since he has a Drawback that makes him a lazy and spoiled person who will find it hard do so on it's own.

That's not wrong, it is simple division of labour. Nameless is good at many things, like cheating, cultivating and charming princesses. He isn't good at treating himself, so we're asking someone who is to help us. Same principle as asking a doctor.

BlueFlamingWings said:
Also, doing so immediately, right now, without any sort of consultation from our Lieutenants will definitely hurt our standing with Xiaoling. She's still coming to terms that we're married now - if we just get rid of Spoiled (the key trait that she and Nameless have in common) without at least talking to her first than that will negatively impact her Loyalty. And because she didn't hear from Nameless that this is something he wants of his free will than she is only left to assume the facts herself - and on their own the facts don't look good. After all, prior to coming here and marrying Aurelia Nameless did not seem to dislike himself, but now he wants to change and is willing to go so far as to get Aurelia to change him? She'll definitely be left thinking that the Elven maiden tricked/convinced him into it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The whole 'loyalty will be lowered if we dont have Spoiled' is not true. Path of the King* had Nameless lose Spoiled and didn't say that "Xiaoling will ditch you because she feels her evil relatives brainwashed you into losing Spoiled", or have any impact on her loyalty.

Also, to be frank, Xiaoling is useless in terms of what she can give us. Reason we keep her around and I argued for her to be second wife is that she's a person who has a deep friendship and chemistry with Nameless.

If in your eyes that friendship of several years is so flimsy she will leave us simply because we decide to leave our childhood embarrassments behind and change to be a better person, that tells us something about her.

If she would do something like that, I don't want her to be Nameless' friend at all anyway! If she wouldn't, she will hopefully be mostly fine (if a bit surprised) at us effectively overcoming Spoiled. Either way, it is a win-win.
 
Last edited:
Besides, note that removing Spoiled is a timeskip project: it takes an year of working with Aurelia. It isn't an instant thing.

Xiaoling will have more than enough time to know that we are trying to change.

If we skip it now, we will be preoccupied with the Heroine and preparing for Kong and will not have same latitude of action and opportunity to remove Spoiled as we have now. (it gets harder to remove habits as one gets older)
 
RedV said:
The whole 'loyalty will be lowered if we dont have Spoiled' is not true. Path of the King* had Nameless lose Spoiled and didn't say that "Xiaoling will ditch you because she feels her evil relatives brainwashed you into losing Spoiled", or have any impact on her loyalty.

Also, to be frank, Xiaoling is useless in terms of what she can give us. Reason we keep her around and I argued for her to be second wife is that she's a person who has a deep friendship with Nameless.

If in your eyes that friendship of several years is so flimsy she will leave us simply because we decide to leave our childhood embarrassments behind and change to be a better man, that tells us something about her.

If she would do something like that, I don't want her to be Nameless' friend at all! If she wouldn't, she will be fine (if a bit surprised) at us effectively overcoming Spoiled.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

You misunderstand. I want him to get rid of Spoiled and if she knows that he decided to change of his own free will I think she'll just live with it:

But not necessarily like it.

After all, that assumes she sees it as a problem. She has Spoiled too and I don't see her in a rush to change. Nor did she see obvious signs Nameless wanted to change. Again, I think she'll assume that Aurelia tricked him into it and he didn't really want to change. I just want to hold off for now and talk to her first - at least mention the lich and how his presence made Nameless want to change.

There's no real rush.

RedV said:
Besides, note that removing Spoiled is a timeskip project: it takes an year of working with Aurelia. It isn't an instant thing.

Xiaoling will have more than enough time to know that we are trying to change.

If we skip it now, we will be preoccupied with the Heroine and preparing for Kong and will not have same latitude of action and opportunity to remove Spoiled as we have now. (it gets harder to remove habits as one gets older)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Which is a point. Assuming that there's no other updates between now and the timeskip I guess any talk with her can happen offscreen but still I would like to talk to her in a update first. We haven't really seen her reaction to the marriage, after all.
 
Last edited:
If she believes Aurelia has tricked us I am pretty sure we can just honestly tell her that's not the case (we have Truth, once we get Truespeech or True Incarnation which makes us immune to external influence it'll be fine.

Besides, I ultimately feel that some potential drama with Xiaoling is fine. We can resolve it later instead of not improving ourself on the mere possibility she won't like it. We've passed up so many opportunities for her sake: are we really going to sacrifice Nameless' personal character growth and his own improvement to appease her too?

We will never get a perfect opportunity to resolve our problems. This is the closest we've gotten, and since after this we will be busy with Heroine and Kong I doubt this chance will come again.
 
Last edited:
We currently at 14.44 stage and if we can have +2 stage form master our innerself then we are pretty much have good chance to raid the heaven.

Extra diligent and seeking truth should pull us through.

I am interest for previous dark lord 2 FB diagram that should give us 0.5-1 stage of combat power.

I remember that if we have high enough power even without hax then we can tear down the heaven.


@Rihaku Can we pull anime scene of resurrected previous dark lord in climax battle?:p

That pretty good subversion for "Power of friendship" in normal hero story.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top