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From Stone to the Stars

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@Redium I don't know if you missed my second to last batch of questions or if you left them for later so I'm linking the relevant post again.
Here.

And adding another one ...:oops:
Redium said:
Effect: Treat Mysticism bonus as 1 higher for all purposes.
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What's the difference between this and simply increasing our Mysticism by one on the stat sheet?

Now on to the vote.

[X] [Dedication] Scenes of a Surreal, Otherworldly Quality
Simply because it's cool.

[X] [Value] As was right, the People's spiritual might was the greatest. (Value Synergy)
[X] [Value] The spirits of land and stone have since been bound by mortar and wrought stone. (Value Synergy)
Approval voting both since one is better for going wide and the other for going tall IMO.

[X] [Pearl] Expand the Pearl Diver's salterns with the People's Stone magic.
Argued for at length.

[X] [Action] Check on the Northlands. The Cave of Stars did kill their High Shaman. (Trade: Northlands)
[X] [Action] Stay home and farm. (Expand Agriculture: Quinoa)
Common courtesy + food.
 
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[x] [Dedication] Scenes of Mountains and Natural Geography.
[x] [Value] The spirits of land and stone have since been bound by mortar and wrought stone. (Value Synergy)
[x] [Pearl] Encourage the People's traders to find something else they can trade for.
[x] [Action] Check on the Northlands. The Cave of Stars did kill their High Shaman. (Trade: Northlands)
[x] [Action] Stay home and farm. (Expand Agriculture: Quinoa)
 
Marlin said:
We have a hard time with diplo connections, Kaspar forced us to try and absorb the Arrow Lake, but we don't want to try and annex Arrow Lake anymore. Giving up our tech for salt means a diplo focus, and we don't have the patience to push through 7-10 turns of trade with one civ, without a hero taking over the turn.
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We auto-trade with both arrow lake and the pearl divers. Also, since when do we not want to absorb arrow lake?
 
[x] [Dedication] Scenes of a Surreal, Otherworldly Quality
[x] [Value] And they've revealed themselves as spirits of reward but also vicious struggle. (Value Synergy)
[x] [Pearl] Encourage the People's traders to find something else they can trade for.
[x] [Action] Reinforce the People's defenses. (The Hill: The Fingers 1/2)
[x] [Action] Reinforce the People's defenses. (The Hill: The Fingers 2/2)
 
racnor said:
We auto-trade with both arrow lake and the pearl divers. Also, since when do we not want to absorb arrow lake?
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Since now? We have an opportunity to grow culturally closer with AL through wrestling. We also aren't doing anything, other than not need to order trade missions to them anymore, in any effort at all to grow culturally closer. At least our progress isn't waning, but neither is it growing.
 
Ghostdevil said:
When will the Pilgrimage be updated? I know you said it would make us dominant, The wonder i mean. So will that be next update when it starts going?
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Fixed.

Marlin said:
@Redium is retributive justice likely to evolve through folk wrestling?
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No. Retributive Justice is mostly likely going to require some type of social or religious reform in order to improve.

Rafin said:
Doesn't automatic trading mean that some of our people, including I presume intelligent ones with connections to our leadership, routinely check on them, have friends in the North, and can mention any obvious issues?
Though I still think that sending what amounts to an official diplomatic mission is the least we can do after killing their girl Pope through neglect.
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Automatic trading is better than no trading at all, but it's thought of as 'the level of contact we've always had'. Having their Head Shaman die in the depths of your wonder is not business as usual so trusting that business as usual will be good enough is optimistic.

Rafin said:
What's the difference between this and simply increasing our Mysticism by one on the stat sheet?
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It's the same as having effectively +1 Mysticism all the time. Legacies can be powerful, but the difference is often small mechanically. Heroic Start only gives you +1 on rolls involving a Hero, but it's been extremely important to you. It saved Kaspar's life literally twice when I rolled for old age.

The difference at each individual stat point is a huge difference. For example, you're currently at:

Martial: 4
Econ: 2
Art: 3
Diplo: -1(0)
Magic: 6(3)
Mysticism: -2(0)

Your high Magic score is being cannibalized to support your ongoing Diplo and Mysticism expenses.

The fact that you have a Mysticism score at all to track is a huge break through. Most cultures won't unlock it until the Chalcolithic.

As for your other questions, I had answered the ones that I had planned to answer.


Do people have other questions they would like answered?
 
Marlin said:
Giving up our tech for salt means a diplo focus
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First, what exactly are we giving up? All I see that we definitely lose is a bit of temporary manpower. "Losing" the tech in question to the Pearl Divers has no negative consequences of any worrisome probability and several potential benefits.
Second, why does it mean that we have to move towards a diplo focus? It's a commerce focus if anything. Salt is literally one of the greatest trade goods in the region and as of yet no one but the source and us even makes any serious use of it. I don't want it in order to tie the Pearl Divers to us (though that seems like a good side effect to me). I want it to move from being the richest people in the land to being absolutely filthy rich. And salt allows us to actually preserve any foodstuff we buy from others en masse.
Third, why is diplo focus a bad thing? What do you want to do instead, beat people into submission? Because anything other than actual war can be considered diplomacy.
Fourth, there are more long term options on how to deal with neighbors other than destroy, conquer or diplo-annex. We can have strong alliances or even become a loose federation without having to convert everyone into being an extension of us. Whether we want to or not is another question, but whatever we do on that front, I don't see how closer ties to Arrow Lake, Pearl Divers or Northlands would be a detriment to our plans.

Redium said:
As for your other questions, I had answered the ones that I had planned to answer.
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Sorry. I completely derped there. For some reason I thought I had another post of questions that you hadn't mentioned yet. Definitely wasn't trying to push you on the Value evolution thing.
 
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Redium said:
Do people have other questions they would like answered?
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1.How are you going to handle not!Americas trade with ancient Africa, ancient egypt, and ancient china?


I think these later questions were already asked...

2.Are you generating cultures on the other side of the world, or will they be generated only if we move into the area?

3.Finally, how on the rails with real life history will you be? Like, a natural disaster wrecks Asia, Asia is trashed small pockets of humans still exist. Would Asia become china in less than 200 years if the disaster decimating the pop occured during the warring states time?

PoC felt like there were strict rails, no matter how much the players did the world is trapped on a predetermined road. Sorta similar to right now actally. The players said civs are doomed to leave nomad life, though I thought native americans were a mix of settled and nomadic cultures.
 
Ghostdevil said:
Advanced Civs are doomed to leave Nomad lives, even in North America, the TRULY powerful civilizations - the Incas and the Aztecs, were NOT nomadic. Thats not a track or even a station, thats a requirement for advancement.
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And we aren't the only settled civ in our region. That comment is more huuuuuuh! History is obeying game logic!!! ex:nomads always make a horde and attack, always. A settlement is always near a settled civ. Or the region noted for nomad culture is strongly not nomadic.

edit: Take the hill people. Why can't they leave this region for a peacful nomad lifestyle of oral tradition, and knot tallies? game mechanics say no.

Edit 2: Also I want a little more realism, just because most civs are believed only strong from a settlement doesn't mean all are. Or an odd person does something crazy like build a tower in the middle of nowhere, or a citizen of our civ wants to befriend the village chief. Sometimes the fact this is a game and is restricted by game logic, sickens me. Great story-telling, though.
 
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Marlin said:
We have a hard time with diplo connections, Kaspar forced us to try and absorb the Arrow Lake, but we don't want to try and annex Arrow Lake anymore. Giving up our tech for salt means a diplo focus, and we don't have the patience to push through 7-10 turns of trade with one civ, without a hero taking over the turn.
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Even if that is the case, and we are giving up on trying to absorb south lake forever, we still have 3 trade actions locked in, and building the saltern boosts all of them. With the pearl divers, we literally half our expenses, and with the northlands and arrow lake we have a monopoly on distribution of what will become a trending good. Which in turn means we either get trade from everyone to aquire that salt, or we utterly fuck over anyone we choose by embargoing them.

Sure, the pearl divers will eventually build enough salterns to reach this point on their own, but even one turn earlier is worth it since it costs literally nothing.
 
racnor said:
Sure, the pearl divers will eventually build enough salterns to reach this point on their own, but even one turn earlier is worth it since it costs literally nothing.
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Wrong, it costs making salt a common trade good. A trade good many would hear about. Many we don't have the action pool to diplo focus upon.

Let's build up before we try and tackle a tornado.

@Redium how come we haven't heard about tornadoes?
 
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Marlin said:
Wrong, it costs making salt a common trade good. A trade good many would hear about. Many we don't have the action pool to diplo focus upon.

Let's build up before we try and tackle a tornado.

@Redium how come we haven't heard about tornadoes?
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We don't need to use a trade action on everyone to gain benefits from having a dominant trade good. The traders will come to us.
 
racnor said:
We don't need to use a trade action on everyone to gain benefits from having a dominant trade good. The traders will come to us.
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This isn't about benefiting from selling salt. But about the salt attracting 8 civs when we are just working on annexing one civ. So many civs with differing opinions. One at least is likely a group that will fight annexation no matter what they have to do. With more salt, there will be more food, and more born humans around to fight.
 
Marlin said:
This isn't about benefiting from selling salt. But about the salt attracting 8 civs when we are just working on annexing one civ. So many civs with differing opinions. One at least is likely a group that will fight annexation no matter what they have to do. With more salt, there will be more food, and more born humans around to fight.
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We don't need to annex every civ we trade with. And again, we can just deny our enemies salt, and laugh as they take constant stability damage.

Also, attract 8 civs? At most we have room for like 1-2 more nomad nations on our north border, and such a nomadic civ could presumably just go around us and trade with the Pearl divers directly. Plus, how would such a civ even know about us having salt?
 
racnor said:
We don't need to annex every civ we trade with. And again, we can just deny our enemies salt, and laugh as they take constant stability damage.

Also, attract 8 civs? At most we have room for like 1-2 more nomad nations on our north border, and such a nomadic civ could presumably just go around us and trade with the Pearl divers directly. Plus, how would such a civ even know about us having salt?
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THEN WHY DON'T WE EXPAND EXPAND EXPAND EXPAND! We shouldn't care if we build a settlement everywhere. They will listen to what we say.

Either we culturally annex every civ we trade with, or we expand like crazy to not be overtaken by civs that grow wide. Culture annexation saves on building infrastructure times.

Edit: Salt is that important a trade good to learn how to make it for your civ, or where the true source can generally be found.

edit2: THEY DON'T HAVE TO BE NOMAD CIVS. They could be unmet settled civs.
 
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[x] [Dedication] Scenes of a Surreal, Otherworldly Quality
[X] [Value] The spirits of land and stone have since been bound by mortar and wrought stone. (Value Synergy)
[x] [Pearl] Expand the Pearl Diver's salterns with the People's Stone magic.
[x] [Action] Check on the Northlands. The Cave of Stars did kill their High Shaman. (Trade: Northlands)
[x] [Action] Smash into the Mountain Clans and make them pay for attacking Arrow Lake and the Bond Breakers. (Raid: Mountain Clans)
 
Marlin said:
THEN WHY DON'T WE EXPAND EXPAND EXPAND EXPAND! We shouldn't care if we build a settlement everywhere. They will listen to what we say.

Either we culturally annex every civ we trade with, or we expand like crazy to not be overtaken by civs that grow wide. Culture annexation saves on building infrastructure times.

Edit: Salt is that important a trade good to learn how to make it for your civ, or where the true source can generally be found.
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I don't see how this is an argument for demanding our traders be more creative instead of building the Pearl Divers a better saltern. Neither involves our speed of expansion.
 
racnor said:
I don't see how this is an argument for demanding our traders be more creative instead of building the Pearl Divers a better saltern. Neither involves our speed of expansion.
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I believe the salt will be a boon for civs not us. And I'm interested in what our traders can find that isn't salt. I am tired of following PoC rails. Let's settle, Let's stop hunting, Let's stop fighting, Let's give salt to everyone. Oh, I KNOW! let's never try and conquer the world!
 
Marlin said:
I believe the salt will be a boon for civs not us. And I'm interested in what our traders can find that isn't salt. I am tired of following PoC rails. Let's settle, Let's stop hunting, Let's stop fighting, Let's give salt to everyone. Oh, I KNOW! let's never try and conquer the world!
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The point isn't just to give salt to everyone, it's to deny salt to people we don't like. We can, at no cost but tech sharing, inflict free stability damage on the mountain clans, tribe of the south, and eventually the peace builders (which in their case, will bait them into an offensive war because of OHCF, where our massive defensive advantages will win the day).
 
racnor said:
The point isn't just to give salt to everyone, it's to deny salt to people we don't like. We can, at no cost but tech sharing, inflict free stability damage on the mountain clans, tribe of the south, and eventually the peace builders (which in their case, will bait them into an offensive war because of OHCF, where our massive defensive advantages will win the day).
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Why would we do that? We won't conquer, we are walking a diplo path. AND WE DON'T NEED TO DO THAT!!

edit: By being the greatest consumer of salt we are currently the only consumer of salt. No one pays what we pay.
 
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[X] [Dedication] Scenes of a Surreal,Otherworldly Quality
[X] [Value] The spirits of land and stone have since been bound by mortar and wrought stone. (Value Synergy)
[X] [Pearl] Expand the Pearl Diver's salterns with the People's Stone magic.
[X] [Action] Check on the Northlands. The Cave of Stars did kill their High Shaman. (Trade: Northlands)
[X] [Action] Stay home and farm. (Expand Agriculture: Quinoa)
Adhoc vote count started by sam5447 on May 12, 2018 at 10:10 PM, finished with 73 posts and 17 votes.
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Adhoc vote count started by sam5447 on May 13, 2018 at 3:46 AM, finished with 66 posts and 25 votes.
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Adhoc vote count started by sam5447 on May 13, 2018 at 3:47 AM, finished with 66 posts and 25 votes.
Click to expand...
 
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