From Stone to the Stars

Nevill · Apr 7, 2018

Redium said:
Stability: Uncertain (0)
Legitimacy: Listening (1)

Redium said:
Pros: People are more willing to endure hardship, can spend Stability in order to double down on failed/incomplete actions, increased appreciation for experience

Our success is starting to depend on Stability pretty heavily, and many actions we are taking to expand faster are stretching our society to the limits. I'd rather take a Stability/Legitimacy bonus now, to have some room for maneuver.

If we take it, we can afford to let the Peace Builders in and maybe learn something from them without fear of having our own ways forgotten.

I am inclined to take Kaspar's gamble. I don't want to absorb them, and testing the southern tribe by proxy while they depend on our goods doesn't sound too bad. So something like...

[ ] [Work] Entrust a tithe of all resources to the Big Man to use as he sees fit.
[ ] [Megaproject] Restore confidence in the People's leadership. (+1 Legitimacy, +2 Stab)
[ ] [Stories] Allow them to spread their tales. (Gain Peace Builder religious/social concepts, Value synergies?, Legitimacy loss?)
[ ] [Bands] Play on the hate the Hundred Bands have for South Lake and tilt them in that direction. (???)

...while keeping in mind that the latter choices are fully conditional on taking extra Stab & Legit.

Umi-san · Apr 7, 2018

Ghostdevil said:
I don't, Idk how game overs work, but if they culturally destroy us, then our entire civ would also be destroyed for the most part.

I don't think they can culturally destroy us, as we're at least somewhat culturally inclined and I'd imagine Legitimacy is what signifies destruction by culture, but if you'd like I'd be willing to do the annual festival.

Ghostdevil · Apr 7, 2018

Umi-san said:
I don't think they can culturally destroy us, as we're at least somewhat culturally inclined and I'd imagine Legitimacy is what signifies destruction by culture, but if you'd like I'd be willing to do the annual festival.

We can't be sure, but being culturally transformed externally by another civilization cause degradation in legitimacy, and cohesion, The peace builders have a stronger culture, and we'd be actively fighting their cultural annexation for the next few turns at the very least, we will have to deal with it regardless but letting them in is practically letting them subsume us.
(If that make sense?)

Umi-san · Apr 7, 2018

Ghostdevil said:
We can't be sure, but being culturally transformed externally by another civilization cause degradation in legitimacy, and cohesion, The peace builders have a stronger culture, and we'd be actively fighting their cultural annexation for the next few turns at the very least, we will have to deal with it regardless but letting them in is practically letting them subsume us.
(If that make sense?)

It does make sense: being culturally transformed officially risks/causes legitimacy loss and unofficially opens us to further advances due to a positive inclination of our people toward their ways, definitely. But in exchange we get what is likely to be well-developed and desirable cultural traits.

Admittedly, though, those traits might be their pacifism, which is an unacceptable risk with our warlike southern neighbors. While I am displeased by the potential for stability loss, I guess an Annual Festival makes sense.

Ghostdevil · Apr 7, 2018

Umi-san said:
It does make sense: being culturally transformed officially risks/causes legitimacy loss and unofficially opens us to further advances due to a positive inclination of our people toward their ways, definitely. But in exchange we get what is likely to be well-developed and desirable cultural traits.

We also are very likely to lose OURS, whats the point if we completely change? I mean i CAN deal, but why just willingly lose most if not all what makes our civ OURS? We will most likely lose trial by fire and our violent tendencies, our defining traits. Its one thing to develop them and/or lose them ourselves, its a whole nother to lose them due to being slowly annexed culturally.

Umi-san · Apr 7, 2018

Ghostdevil said:
We also are very likely to lose OURS, whats the point if we completely change? I mean i CAN deal, but why just willingly lose most if not all what makes our civ OURS? We will most likely lose trial by fire and our violent tendencies, our defining traits. Its one thing to develop them and/or lose them ourselves, its a whole nother to lose them due to being slowly annexed culturally.

There is no mention of such a possibility in the choice, and I thus consider your worries in this regard - at least in the short term - baseless.

Ghostdevil · Apr 7, 2018

Umi-san said:
There is no mention of such a possibility in the choice, and I thus consider your worries in this regard - at least in the short term - baseless.

Its perfectly logical actually, these are Peace seekers, now peace builders, they made the violent and expansionist Barrow Builders more pacifistic, the fact that we can lose legitimacy means that their values are encroaching and overtaking ours, and based on their stance and values, our Violent trait is in opposition to it, our trial by fire is and can be done via conflict and violence, so even if it doesn't get rid of it, it'll definitely be effected to reflect their culture.
You have to remember that short term for US, is generations.

Umi-san · Apr 7, 2018

Ghostdevil said:
Its perfectly logical actually, these are Peace seekers, now peace builders, they made the violent and expansionist Barrow Builders more pacifistic, the fact that we can lose legitimacy means that their values are encroaching and overtaking ours, and based on their stance and values, our Violent trait is in opposition to it, our trial by fire is and can be done via conflict and violence, so even if it doesn't get rid of it, it'll definitely be effected to reflect their culture.
You have to remember that short term for US, is generations.

I'll choose to believe the listed effects of the options. But, to respond to you:
Pacifism and violence will probably blend and negate each other, sure, if pacifism rather than a number of other traits is what we receive. The reduced inclination toward violence will limit the amount of conflict that would create trials by fire, sure. Which still leaves our four other traits potentially untouched. And, to be honest, if keeping violence is the island you want to stand on, you're welcome to it.

Ghostdevil · Apr 7, 2018

Umi-san said:
Pacifism and violence will probably blend and negate each other, sure, if pacifism rather than a number of other traits is what we receive. The reduced inclination toward violence will limit the amount of conflict that would create trials by fire, sure. Which still leaves our four other traits potentially untouched. And, to be honest, if keeping violence is the island you want to stand on, you're welcome to it.

If you want to ignore the blatant annexation going on in such an event then yea, thats an island i'll stand on since these are traits that have been pretty intrinsic to our people. I assume that this is in a worse case scenario of cultural transfusion anyways. Well actually second or third to worse, since the worst is them changing most if not all our traits.
And you have to remember the age were in, Violence is a perfectly Reasonable action to take and have.
Edit:
@Redium Actually how would it work anyways? Would it be a game over if we get Culturally annexed?

Redium · Apr 7, 2018

Nevill said:
I don't understand the metrics you are using.

The size of the old (smaller) map is 4217x3630 pixels. The new one is 1732x1518. 4 times as many tiles packed into an image with a resolution of 2.5 times less is what causes the text to be illegible and the tiles to blur together.

Perhaps you uploaded the wrong file, or put up the wrong link? Because otherwise I can't understand what you are referring to.

When I made the map, I doubled the number of hex columns and hex rows; I didn't change anything else. I'm really not sure why the resolution changed. Unfortunately, I can't change it now because of the way the Hexographer works. The worst part of the quest is maintaining the map so I strongly hesitate to redo it again.

Umi-san said:
Where are we getting the sponges from?

I couldn't exactly think of what to put there. You don't have sponges, you don't have cloths; it's likely that they're using either fur squares or reed mats.

Umi-san said:
There is no mention of such a possibility in the choice, and I thus consider your worries in this regard - at least in the short term - baseless.

The concern is actually perfectly reasonable; after all, replacing the Barrow Builder's values is exactly what the Peace Seekers did. They ate them from inside out and then burst out of them like an Alien.

Ghostdevil said:
If you want to ignore the blatant annexation going on in such an event then yea, thats an island i'll stand on since these are traits that have been pretty intrinsic to our people. I assume that this is in a worse case scenario of cultural transfusion anyways. Well actually second or third to worse, since the worst is them changing most if not all our traits.
And you have to remember the age were in, Violence is a perfectly Reasonable action to take and have.

Violence is reasonable, but it's also a local maxima. Peace and cooperation are more effective over all, but they're harder. Look at the Haudenosaunee Confederacy. Five warring tribes came together and suddenly became utterly dominant by working together where before they were weak and at each other's throats. Of course, it's hard to be the first one to put down your weapons. If you do, Game Theory kicks in. Your rivals gain a much bigger benefit by defecting and attacking you than cooperating in peace.

Ghostdevil · Apr 7, 2018

Redium said:
Violence is reasonable, but it's also a local maxima. Peace and cooperation are more effective over all, but they're harder. Look at the Haudenosaunee Confederacy. Five warring tribes came together and suddenly became utterly dominant by working together where before they were weak and at each other's throats. Of course, it's hard to be the first one to put down your weapons. If you do, Game Theory kicks in. Your rivals gain a much bigger benefit by defecting and attacking you than cooperating in peace.

Oh i know, but i like our violent tendencies, its a defining trait of ours that we can be diplomatic, but when it comes down to it, we will kick ass.
*also did you see my last edit in my other post?*

Umi-san · Apr 7, 2018

Redium said:
The concern is actually perfectly reasonable; after all, replacing the Barrow Builder's values is exactly what the Peace Seekers did. They ate them from inside out and then burst out of them like an Alien.

Yes, but eventually not immediately.

Ghostdevil · Apr 7, 2018

Umi-san said:
Yes, but eventually not immediately.

It is Immediate... For us, we go by generation each turn, luckily time has slowed down somewhat since ascension of our super hero. But it'll be still pretty fast.

hylas240 · Apr 7, 2018

[ ] [Work] Entrust a tithe of all resources to the Big Man to use as he sees fit.
[ ] [Megaproject] Restore confidence in the People's leadership. (+1 Legitimacy, +2 Stab)

We're kinda scrapping the bottom of the barrel with legitimacy here.

[ ] [Stories] Obviously the People's Stories are best! (Annual Festival, variable Stability effects)

Culture wars are always fun, right?

[ ] [Bands] Push these fragments to full absorb themselves into the People (Chance of -1 Stab)

I'd rather assimilate them really. Risking our trade network with the south being destabilized seems like a bad idea.

zac1 · Apr 7, 2018

Someone should get a picture of the fingers settlement, it be interesting to see it.

veekie · Apr 8, 2018

How did the People restructure to begin creating Great Works?

[ ] [Work] Entrust command of resources and labour to the Big Man.

Centralized authority. Magnifies leader effects, including Idiot leaders and increases risks of rebellion later on if communication networks exceed their limits.

[ ] [Work] Entrust a tithe of all resources to the Big Man to use as he sees fit.

Taxation/Tribute. Ensures local powers have their own authority, which would lead to smaller scale undesirable behaviors, but more flexible, since the Big Man can shut down any individual outbreak.

[ ] [Work] Entrusted their old ways and pushed through the pain. (-1 Stability)

This just won't cut it.

Choose a Megaproject reward:
[ ] [Megaproject] Upgrade Vale: Wondrous World

I suspect this changes to something for MAKING wonders, not just finding them.

[ ] [Megaproject] Rush Builders Legacy

This meanwhile is pure gold. Legacies are hard to get(since whoever gets it first will lock it from anyone else getting it), and Rush Builders means making stuff faster. This is important for us because we have a Hill extended project now, which would allow us to develop a Motte-and-Bailey defense setup.
Rush Builders means we can potentially make it happen fast enough to keep up with expansion
Noting that if we don't take this legacy the Peace Builders are most certainly going to.

[ ] [Megaproject] Immortalize the moment in song. (Exploding Cultural or Reglious tech rolls, minimum 2)

This is mostly if we wanted to push against cultural intrusion and spread our culture.

[ ] [Megaproject] Automatically Complete: The Hill Extended Project at Crystal Lake.

If we wanted to make Hills standard for settlements...well, this is a thing for making it happen sooner.

[ ] [Megaproject] Restore confidence in the People's leadership. (+1 Legitimacy, +2 Stab)

This is the lowest value, unless we're actually at critical stability/legitimacy. Remember we can raise both with Festivals and Ordeals, so its just burning a megaproject bonus on getting a free action.
...this would be more important if Stories didn't give a Stability boost option right there

[ ] [Stories] Allow them to spread their tales. (Gain Peace Builder religious/social concepts, Value synergies?, Legitimacy loss?)

Gets us new social concepts to shuffle and see what comes out. They probably have construction values that synergize with our defense value.
Risks degrading our martial values though.

[ ] [Stories] Obviously the People's Stories are best! (Annual Festival, variable Stability effects)

Boost stability, push back against culture intrusion.
Pure plus.

[ ] [Stories] Forbid these foreign ways! (-1 Stability)
[ ] [Stories] Destroy these foreign heresies! (Raid: Peace Builders)

Probably not wise.

[ ] [Bands] Push these fragments to full absorb themselves into the People (Chance of -1 Stab)

Risky with our current low stability.

[ ] [Bands] Destroy these fragments entirely (Raid: Inland Hundred Bands)

Eh, they hardly deserve it.

[ ] [Bands] Open trade and try to promote peaceful relations. (Trade: Inland Hundred Bands)

More trade, more ideas, more resources. Plus.

[ ] [Bands] Play on the hate the Hundred Bands have for South Lake and tilt them in that direction. (???)

This has a lot of potential, but can backfire bad later on.
Might be worth trying if we hate them both enough though

Personal vote:

[ ] [Work] Entrust a tithe of all resources to the Big Man to use as he sees fit.
[ ] [Megaproject] Rush Builders Legacy
[ ] [Stories] Obviously the People's Stories are best! (Annual Festival, variable Stability effects)
[ ] [Bands] Open trade and try to promote peaceful relations. (Trade: Inland Hundred Bands)

This should bring us up to positive stability again, while keeping the trade flowing. We got lots of trade goods passing through us now.

Redium · Apr 8, 2018

Voting is now officially OPEN!

Your options for 13.1 are:

How did the People restructure to begin creating Great Works?

[ ] [Work] Entrust command of resources and labour to the Big Man.
[ ] [Work] Entrust a tithe of all resources to the Big Man to use as he sees fit.
[ ] [Work] Entrusted their old ways and pushed through the pain. (-1 Stability)

Choose a Megaproject reward:

[ ] [Megaproject] Upgrade Vale: Wondrous World
[ ] [Megaproject] Rush Builders Legacy
[ ] [Megaproject] Immortalize the moment in song. (Exploding Cultural or Reglious tech rolls, minimum 2)
[ ] [Megaproject] Automatically Complete: The Hill Extended Project at Crystal Lake.
[ ] [Megaproject] Restore confidence in the People's leadership. (+1 Legitimacy, +2 Stab)

How do the People respond to the intrusion of the Skalds?

[ ] [Stories] Allow them to spread their tales. (Gain Peace Builder religious/social concepts, Value synergies?, Legitimacy loss?)
[ ] [Stories] Obviously the People's Stories are best! (Annual Festival, variable Stability effects)
[ ] [Stories] Forbid these foreign ways! (-1 Stability)
[ ] [Stories] Destroy these foreign heresies! (Raid: Peace Builders)

A fragment of the Hundred Bands has survived and ended up on the People's doorstep. How should they be dealt with?

[ ] [Bands] Push these fragments to full absorb themselves into the People (Chance of -1 Stab)
[ ] [Bands] Destroy these fragments entirely (Raid: Inland Hundred Bands)
[ ] [Bands] Open trade and try to promote peaceful relations. (Trade: Inland Hundred Bands)
[ ] [Bands] Play on the hate the Hundred Bands have for South Lake and tilt them in that direction. (???)

hylas240 · Apr 8, 2018

[X] [Work] Entrust a tithe of all resources to the Big Man to use as he sees fit.
[X] [Megaproject] Rush Builders Legacy
[X] [Megaproject] Restore confidence in the People's leadership. (+1 Legitimacy, +2 Stab)
[X] [Megaproject] Upgrade Vale: Wondrous World

I'd prefer it if we restore confidence, but the other 2 are fine as well.

[X] [Stories] Obviously the People's Stories are best! (Annual Festival, variable Stability effects)
[X] [Bands] Push these fragments to full absorb themselves into the People (Chance of -1 Stab)
[X] [Bands] Open trade and try to promote peaceful relations. (Trade: Inland Hundred Bands)

If we have the stability, i'd like to assimilate the Hundred Bands. If we don't, opening up trade is also good.

veekie · Apr 8, 2018

[X] [Work] Entrust a tithe of all resources to the Big Man to use as he sees fit.
[X] [Megaproject] Rush Builders Legacy
[X] [Stories] Obviously the People's Stories are best! (Annual Festival, variable Stability effects)
[X] [Bands] Open trade and try to promote peaceful relations. (Trade: Inland Hundred Bands)

Timewinders · Apr 8, 2018

[X] [Work] Entrust a tithe of all resources to the Big Man to use as he sees fit.
[X] [Megaproject] Immortalize the moment in song. (Exploding Cultural or Reglious tech rolls, minimum 2)
[X] [Stories] Obviously the People's Stories are best! (Annual Festival, variable Stability effects)
[X] [Bands] Push these fragments to full absorb themselves into the People (Chance of -1 Stab)

Social and religious tech should help with the culture war.

LucidProp · Apr 8, 2018

[X] [Work] Entrust a tithe of all resources to the Big Man to use as he sees fit.
[X] [Megaproject] Immortalize the moment in song. (Exploding Cultural or Reglious tech rolls, minimum 2)
[X] [Stories] Obviously the People's Stories are best! (Annual Festival, variable Stability effects)
[X] [Bands] Open trade and try to promote peaceful relations. (Trade: Inland Hundred Bands)

We can't beat the Peace Seekers in a Culture War without new Religous and Cultural Tech. At the same time however, we need more Stab and Legit if we're to survive so just outright assimilating the inland Hundred Band won't work. We need to focus on one threat at a time, and the Culture War is a lot more threatening. We can always absorb the inland HB later once we're in a better position, the same can't be said of the Peace Seekers.

kilopi505 · Apr 8, 2018

[X] [Work] Entrust a tithe of all resources to the Big Man to use as he sees fit.
[X] [Megaproject] Automatically Complete: The Hill Extended Project at Crystal Lake.
[X] [Stories] Obviously the People's Stories are best! (Annual Festival, variable Stability effects)
[X] [Bands] Push these fragments to full absorb themselves into the People (Chance of -1 Stab)

Space Jawa · Apr 8, 2018

[X] [Work] Entrust a tithe of all resources to the Big Man to use as he sees fit.
[X] [Megaproject] Restore confidence in the People's leadership. (+1 Legitimacy, +2 Stab)
[X] [Megaproject] Rush Builders Legacy
[X] [Stories] Obviously the People's Stories are best! (Annual Festival, variable Stability effects)
[X] [Bands] Push these fragments to full absorb themselves into the People (Chance of -1 Stab)
[X] [Bands] Open trade and try to promote peaceful relations. (Trade: Inland Hundred Bands)

Umi-san · Apr 8, 2018

[X] [Work] Entrust a tithe of all resources to the Big Man to use as he sees fit.
[X] [Megaproject] Rush Builders Legacy
[X] [Stories] Obviously the People's Stories are best! (Annual Festival, variable Stability effects)
[X] [Bands] Push these fragments to full absorb themselves into the People (Chance of -1 Stab)

Utterly incapable of deciding.

JamesShazbond · Apr 8, 2018

[X] [Work] Entrust a tithe of all resources to the Big Man to use as he sees fit.
[X] [Megaproject] Upgrade Vale: Wondrous World
[X] [Stories] Obviously the People's Stories are best! (Annual Festival, variable Stability effects)
[X] [Bands] Push these fragments to full absorb themselves into the People (Chance of -1 Stab)

From Stone to the Stars

Procrastinating.

The Devil of Ghosts

Procrastinating.

The Devil of Ghosts

Procrastinating.

The Devil of Ghosts

Procrastinating.

The Devil of Ghosts

The Devil of Ghosts

Procrastinating.

The Devil of Ghosts

Pocky Eating MafiaDoka

Procrastinating.