Yeah, that's what they kinda expect for Type II civs.

Not only does their power output and density increase, but their efficiency increases, which means less waste.

Which, ironically, means they become -quieter-, so it's less likely for us to actually find them passively via SETI because they dump less power into outer space for no reason.

...Can you imagine how anal retentive about recycling a member of a Type II civ would be?

It wouldn't be just 'protect the environment', it would be 'it's part of manufacturing process' and 'the only thing stopping peer races from finding us by accident because we had to explore to get new resources' and 'think of the arcology you're living in!'

Man, he or she would probably be a great friend if you lived in the same civ (thanks for reminding me that it's burnable trash day!), but, boy, do they sound like a total jerk to me.
 
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Yeah, that's what they kinda expect for Type II civs.

Not only does their power output and density increase, but their efficiency increases, which means less waste.

Which, ironically, means they become -quieter-, so it's less likely for us to actually find them passively via SETI because they dump less power into outer space for no reason.

...Can you imagine how anal retentive about recycling a member of a Type II civ would be?

It wouldn't be just 'protect the environment', it would be 'it's part of manufacturing process' and 'the only thing stopping peer races from finding us by accident because we had to explore to get new resources' and 'think of the arcology you're living in!'

Man, he or she would probably be a great friend if you lived in the same civ (thanks for reminding me that it's burnable trash day!), but, boy, do they sound like a total jerk to me.
There's also the consideration that, given the chemical similarities between food waste and what makes up a species which creates that food waste it's pretty feasible for a Type II civ to literally build people out of garbage.

Stuff gets weird that high up the hierarchy.
 
There's also the consideration that, given the chemical similarities between food waste and what makes up a species which creates that food waste it's pretty feasible for a Type II civ to literally build people out of garbage.

Stuff gets weird that high up the hierarchy.

Don't forget the opposite:

"It's fertilizer! What, you bury your dead and don't think about the decomposition or you cremate them without thinking about the left over bonemeal/ash? Do you even know the Phosphate Cycle?"

....But then in a world without biological immortality, you go full dystopia, with 'assisted suicide for everyone over 80' because, hey, your value to society goes down due to infirmity and dementia and everyone would be better off with you fertilizing the vertical farms than you eating a newborn childs food.

It's really easy to make a messed up Type II civ due to all the crazy economics behind generating a 'zero waste society'.
 
I think it would be really nice if we could build a Dyson Ring sometime.

Impractical, but, well, you know..
 
I think it would be really nice if we could build a Dyson Ring sometime.

Impractical, but, well, you know..
Frankly with a nanoforge and a hypothetical strong force Secret we could build an honest small Ringworld.

Which basically solves any and all population issues for the foreseeable future.
 
Mini-turn: Second Contact - Part 14
October 3rd​, 2121

"So, apart from everything else, I think things have been going pretty well," you said to the image of Mary prowling around your quarters. She looked up at you, eyes flashing dangerously, and you shrugged helplessly. "Mary, she knew. Trying to tell her no wouldn't have helped anything. Y-" you cut off as she gestured sharply.

"I know, Mandy." Her eyes softened a little. "But that doesn't stop either of us worrying. She's still so young," she sighed, shaking her head. "And yet we weren't any older, where we?" You'd been reaching for the same words as she spoke again, and they fell away with an easy laugh.

"You always were so much smarter than me," you said, laughing softly as she blushed. "Working out what I'm going to say before I even get there myself." The words could have turned so easily into something hard, angry, but they didn't. Part of you wondered if they even could. "But to answer your question, no, we weren't." You brushed your hand through hers, one of the few ways you could try to show you cared more than words, separated as you were.

"I wondered if she'd take after us, that way." She replied, almost sadly. "She's so happy being what we never had the chance to be, and I don't want to take that from her."

"Neither do I, Mary. But," Mary met your words with her own.

"She's not just that. It's been such a joy to see her grow, to become more, but also more human. More ours." There was a faint crack in the last two words, but she mastered it. "Letting them know what she is beyond that, wasn't it a risk? What if they'd reacted poorly? They still could." You felt something compress in your chest, the same feeling from before, when you'd been talking with Kendl.

"Mary." She looked around from her pacing, and something in your eyes, or maybe more than that, stopped her dead. "If they try to hurt her, I will protect her. No matter what." Light flared against your skin, the faintest echo of your Aegis bleeding through, and Mary nodded slowly.

"I know." She said, after a long moment. "But I just wish that sometimes…" she turned away, and you rose to your feet, moving closer regardless of her not actually standing in the room with you. "That sometimes I could protect her as well. I'm," you moved round into her field of view, and shook your head sharply.

"Mary, you've given her more than I ever could." She looked up, something in her eyes almost daring you to stop, yet begging for you to continue. "That first year and a half when I wasn't able to be there properly, you gave her a life as more than a program. And you didn't need my help with her body. It might have taken you a bit longer to get it all right, but you would've succeeded."

"I," The worry and fear in her eyes had flickered as you'd poured the belief in your words into far more than just that. Now, as you finished, it started to fade. "And you call me the smart one." She chuckled at herself, stopping abruptly at your nod.

"It's the truth." You told her firmly. "Just because," a soft tone cut you off, and you jerked in place as the header of the incoming transmission popped up in front of your eyes. This was…unexpected.

"What is it, Mandy?" Recognising the signs of surprise wasn't hard for her.

"The," you shook yourself mentally. "The Nilean Emissary is calling me. I, Mary," you tried to find the words, hating yourself in the moment for searching for them, and she just smiled gently.

"You're here to do a job." She brushed a virtual hand through yours. "Go do it. I'll still be here when you're done."

"Thank you." They were the only words you could say, and Mary nodded once, still with that gentle smile. "I'll call you again soon."

"Not tonight," she said, chuckling a little. "I need to put Iris to bed, then get some rest of my own. Not all of us can stay up all hours, you know." You shook your head, knowing just how much of a lie that could be sometimes.

"Then tomorrow." You said, reaching for transmission control.

"Of course." She nodded, then reached up and cut her own holo. You took a moment to centre yourself, then touched the key to accept the call.

"Emissary Merizan," you greeted her coolly, "it is quite late."

"I know, Envoy." She said, signing apology. "And I'm sorry for bothering you. But I, we, have something that we'd like to offer you." You quirked an eyebrow, then remembering yourself, made a gesture for her to continue.

"It must be truly important to contact me now."

"It is." She nodded. "Envoy Hawk, I would like to extend an invitation to visit the ships of the Contact Fleet." Your thoughts screeched to a halt. They couldn't…could they?

"Which ships?" You asked carefully, your fingers moving to hesitant curiosity. If this was truly what it might be, then there was only one answer.

"All of them." It was. You breathed out slowly, mentally leafing through your available responses as Kendl continued. "We would like to offer you the chance to see some of what we are as you've offered with residence aboard Concordia."

"And what else would you wish me to see?" You asked, the words careful, but also more than that. If they were asking this, then you wanted it to be very clear. "You've known from our first meeting that I can see what even your best sensors can't. If you want me to sweep your ships, you had but to ask."

"That," she paused, signing confusion. "I'm sorry, had?"

"Yes." You said, "but also no." You dropped into your chair, looking up and across at the Nilean. "You want me to sweep your ships of Shiplord interference, yes?"

"Yes." The reply was only a moment in coming, that was probably a good thing.

"Then whose ships are they?" She blinked, a shared sign of confusion, and you signed sincere need. "Emissary Merizan, those ships are the agents of powers unknown, and though you have danced close to the line on many occasions, none of you have been willing to confirm it. But if I am to step onto those craft, then I and my government must know to whom they belong. That you came to us each time allowed this to be ignored, for you are our guests. But that doesn't go both ways."

"We cannot simply be concerned citizens, then?" Kendl asked wryly, and you smiled shortly, but in the same manner.

"Concerned citizens could not offer what you have, I think." You leaned forward. "Emissary, Kendl if I may, you have been here long enough, I think. You wouldn't be asking this if you and the others hadn't decided to trust us. All I'm asking, all my government would be asking, is confirmation for what you surely know we are smart enough to understand."

"Appearances can matter," she replied cautiously, and you could see the uncertainty even without her signing. Thousands of years living in fear of the Shiplords, not knowing who might be an agent, what might be a test. You couldn't begin to imagine what that did to a people. And yet if you were to help, if things were going to move to where they needed to, that had to take this step.

"Yes," your voice was very soft. "They can."

"If we are indeed what you say, if we admit it, and if even a single whisper makes it back to the Shiplords," she trailed off, teetering on the edge between a duty to fear and a duty to hope. You could swing the balance, if you spoke wisely. But how to do it?

[] Truth
[] Insight
[] Freedom
 
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Short one today, and a lot of it ended up focused not on what I'd intended (Mary and Amanda just ate up most of the text). That said, this is a rather important decision, with a lot of future openings. This is the promised chance for you to get confirmation of who the CF actually represents, as it's basically required for Amanda to go aboard their ships. Next section is likely to be rather longer, and might telescope depending on how my muse is feeling.
 
[X] Truth

The truth will set you free~!

Kidding aside, does the Insight option refer to revealing how we know so much about them, and if so how is that different from the Truth option? Is it a matter of how much we reveal?
 
Hmm. This is a hard one, not least because the choices are somewhat vague.

I like Truth because it makes Humanity's presentation consistent -- it shows that Truth is one of the cornerstones of how we approach the world.

But I like Freedom because it's the core of what would bring them peace.

Insight might actually be intimidating because we already know they're afraid of what we know.
 
[x] Insight

// btw., I cannot see how this visit can be kept secret if the ships return.
 
Frankly with a nanoforge and a hypothetical strong force Secret we could build an honest small Ringworld.

Which basically solves any and all population issues for the foreseeable future.
Frankly, just with nanorech we're more or less set for the next couple hundred years already. Artificial gravity will let us shred the molten core of Mercury, even siphon off higher mass elements from the Sun. With those two Secrets we might we'll be a Kardashev Type II for real by the time the Regulars fleet arrives, certainly by the time the War Fleet arrives.

"I we are indeed what you say
If


[X] Freedom

We've pretty well established our credentials as trustworthy people: the Nileans of all people wouldn't trust us on their ships if we weren't, Shiplord detector or not. So Truth is redundant. Insight, as mentioned above, could be a setback, as it may make them fear us.

That leaves Freedom, which I really, really like, because it establishes something we haven't really shown the Contact Fleet yet: a burning passion to be rid of the yoke of the Shiplords. So far we haven't shown a determination to throw off the Shiplords that is a match to these people, who have been struggling against them for thousands of years, sacrificing their morals and damaging their own souls to do so. We'll never be able to equal the magnitude of their sacrifices, but we can be compassionate and show them how much we honor then for what they've done, and how much we are prepared to risk on their behalf.
 
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Frankly, just with nanorech we're more or less set for the next couple hundred years already. Artificial gravity will let us shred the molten core of Mercury, even siphon off higher mass elements from the Sun. With those two Secrets we might we'll be a Kardashev Type II for real by the time the Regulars fleet arrives, certainly by the time the War Fleet arrives.


If

I think there are times were gravity technology is to be expected, but they purposefully don't go into details, because the only real gravity tech we know of in RL is putting supercooled, superconductive liquid into a torus accelerator, have the liquid crushed to white drawf density and have it accelerated up to 99% of lightspeed.

Robert L. Forward, the guy who devised it, based on mass shifting and electromagnetism acting like gravity turned round and said "for all I know, this kind of device is simply based on my or our limited understanding and in a few hundred years there will be students who consider 'white drawf star matter' to be inefficient and it's vastly cheaper to use something else."

[x] Freedom
 
[X] Freedom

This was absolutely adorable, if also still revealing. I've seen married couples far less affectionate than these two, but as for Iris, it seems like she's still not as emotionally secure as a teenager should be. A low bar, to be sure.

I find that, in every way except insight into adult conversations and scientific matters, it may be best to treat her as if she is three to five years younger than she chooses to represent. Her appearance is, at best, a compromise.
 
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That leaves Freedom, which I really, really like, because it establishes something we haven't really shown the Contact Fleet yet: a burning passion to be rid of the yoke of the Shiplords. So far we haven't shown a determination to throw off the Shiplords that is a match to these people, who have been struggling against them for thousands of years, sacrificing their morals and damaging their own souls to do so. We'll never be able to equal the magnitude of their sacrifices, but we can be compassionate and show them how much we honor then for what they've done, and how much we are prepared to risk on their behalf.
This is a VERY GOOD POINT. So far, we've been... almost nonchalant about it. Yes, we've shown that we understand the concern, but we aren't showing the same kind of mortal terror that everyone else does. So let's inject some good old-fashioned HOPE into things.

[x] Freedom
 
Out of curiosity, what happens if a species advances fast enough that they manage to defeat the First Contact Tribute Fleet, preventing the bans on the First and Second Secrets from being implemented?

I'm guessing a War Fleet shows up ASAP afterwards?
 
Out of curiosity, what happens if a species advances fast enough that they manage to defeat the First Contact Tribute Fleet, preventing the bans on the First and Second Secrets from being implemented?

I'm guessing a War Fleet shows up ASAP afterwards?
Snowfire already told us that races 'advancing too fast' are stopped. Terminally.
 
Out of curiosity, what happens if a species advances fast enough that they manage to defeat the First Contact Tribute Fleet, preventing the bans on the First and Second Secrets from being implemented?

I'm guessing a War Fleet shows up ASAP afterwards?

@MTB is entirely correct, yes. Not that Insight has ever found an example of this occurring.
 
"If we are indeed what you say, if we admit it, and if even a single whisper makes it back to the Shiplords," she trailed off, teetering on the edge between a duty to fear and a duty to hope. You could swing the balance, if you spoke wisely. But how to do it?

[X] Insight

The mistake people voting for Freedom are making is that they are assuming that this decision has a wider remit than it does.
The point here is to get them to admit what they know, and we know, and they know we know, to us officially.
Not to craft a wider path for the G6; this delegation does not have that power, and would not make that decision in isolation anyway.

And it's not like the Shiplords give a flying fuck about your not breaking the letter of the law if they think you're breaking the spirit.

Why Insight? They need the Insight to make a rational decision without their decision-making processes being clouded by the detritus of a couple thousand years of fear and failed attempts at breaking their bonds.
To understand exactly how much of their decisionmaking is clouded by the emotion of fear.

The Insight isn't aimed outwards at us, it's aimed inwards at themselves.
It helps self-understanding.

Truth would be a close second, but truth is subject to interpretation.
And this is one of those occasions I'd prefer to guide their interpretation a little.
 
The mistake people voting for Freedom are making is that they are assuming that this decision has a wider remit than it does.
The point here is to get them to admit what they know, and we know, and they know we know, to us officially.
Not to craft a wider path for the G6; this delegation does not have that power, and would not make that decision in isolation anyway.

And it's not like the Shiplords give a flying fuck about your not breaking the letter of the law if they think you're breaking the spirit.

Why Insight? They need the Insight to make a rational decision without their decision-making processes being clouded by the detritus of a couple thousand years of fear and failed attempts at breaking their bonds.
To understand exactly how much of their decisionmaking is clouded by the emotion of fear.
I'm not sure what this actually means. We're not Speaking in front of Kendl; we're providing a theme, a framework, on which Amanda will be building her diplomacy check:
  • Truth and Insight are likely all about either leveraging our open and honest nature to inform about our motives, or disclosing all the OCP knowledge we have to pressure Kendl into making a concession, sort of the same thing that she did to us twice now to draw out the Practice usage and Iris's status as an AI. I'm not terribly sure which is which; initially I thought Insight was referring to Project Insight, but now that I'm thinking more that seems to fall under Truth, with its fact-based connotations, with Insight instead being more about leveraging soft skills.
  • Freedom gets more into explaining our motives, which I think is ultimately what Kendl wants to know. If Truth is the what we know, and Insight is the how we know what we do, then Freedom is the why, and so far we haven't said anything about why, which may be making the Nileans nervous because not having a strong motivation to fight is how your species becomes Uninvolved.
 
To be fair, it actually did look like we were looking for a Word to Speak at first glance and I had to re-read the prompt to be sure.

Apologies, that would be a failure on my part. You are not Speaking here, no. This is a directional vote. I should have clarified >.<
Adhoc vote count started by Snowfire on Apr 6, 2018 at 9:37 AM, finished with 11012 posts and 17 votes.
 
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