- Location
- USA
So considering we are about to integrate the refugees and they have no place to return to, I'm guessing our current captives would just transition into full fledged members of the tribe?
From Stone to the Stars
- Thread starter Redium
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
So considering we are about to integrate the refugees and they have no place to return to, I'm guessing our current captives would just transition into full fledged members of the tribe?
- Location
- Canada
Can we set up watchtower structures? An have a sort of small town surrounding it? About a few houses and the like, what I want from this is to have our wolves (as wolves is a cooler name then dogs) migrate between each town, make them more free ranged as well as establishing territory with our canine friends.
Also the houses are for hunters so we can limit stress in hunting regions watch towers would have a garrison of permanent hunters to defend or light the fires in case of invasion of another tribe. It would be like assigning nobles to a area to settle and manage the land, anyone who we send there are going to be doing it for the big man. I also hope to set up a government of sorts by doing this way, so that progress reports of the Towers for that region.
Also the houses are for hunters so we can limit stress in hunting regions watch towers would have a garrison of permanent hunters to defend or light the fires in case of invasion of another tribe. It would be like assigning nobles to a area to settle and manage the land, anyone who we send there are going to be doing it for the big man. I also hope to set up a government of sorts by doing this way, so that progress reports of the Towers for that region.
[X] [Refugees] "Embrace them as Brothers and Sisters. Divide them among the People's settlements." (-1 Stability)
[X] [Settlement] New vistas. (Explore: Hundred Isles/Southwest White River)
[X] [Settlement] New vistas. (Explore: Hundred Isles/Southwest White River)
- Location
- USA
So, I'm assuming that the trade we do seems to be based mostly on estimates rather than any concrete set of standard measures right?
I'm curious because I'm wondering how trade occurs and if there are any measures to prevent cheating.
Also, for those we send in trade missions are they dedicated merchants/traders or are they simply normal tribe members the Big Man trusts?
That's good to know. It seems like a northward expansion is possible now that we know about its abundant river systems. It also looks pike the Northern Hinterlands aren't going to be likely as hostile to us considering how they've been described, especially with our obsidian being a very valuable commodity.
Interesting, quick question though, when we integrate tribes does any cultural exchange occur? Such as do our people begin to accept some of the values of those we accept through cultural osmosis?
So is legitimacy attached to the institution or is it attached to the ruler?
Knowing that I think we really need to tread carefully now that we are integrating a large group of former enemies.
Does it look like we'll conceivably run out of clay anytime soon?
Curious. I wonder if that's just due to their history of never being tied down the land enough before to experience one, or if the region itself is tectonically stable?
Glad to see that our decisions saved us here. We should probably keep that in mind if we ever expand to say the River Bend site as I don't think it would fare as well.
Just out of curiosity, did we learn anything from these forest fires that we could apply?
So it seems like we've reached the point where we can settle another location safely then? Good to know, but how would we work out who the Big Man for that settlement would end up being? Would it even start with one or would it just have to develop far along enough to be self sufficient to get one?
On another note I think even if we don't settle down there in the Hundred Isles we should try our best to set the Island Makers and the South Lake tribe against each other both to keep them occupied and to potentially weaken them enough for neither to be a threat to us. Both work for me. This is a game of civilization after all and not everyone is a friend.
On the part about the Northern Hinterlands, what does Kaspar believe would happen if we establish a settlement on the Great River and as a result end up stopping trade with them? Either or when it comes to a deliberate decision compared to one of circumstance.
So just to clarify, would synergy mean that if we did this action together it would serve to improve both of them at the same time?
Because considering your wording it seems like if we choose this option it would mean that we would be treating our past experience with them as an ordeal which would thus give us a potential boost in stability and legitimacy right?
Or am I wrong and this is us starting an ordeal?
Another question I was wondering? If we choose to accept the refugees would the -1 stability be capped or could other choices exasperate the issue?
For example if we decide to trade with the South Lake tribe and the former Hundred Bands members take it as a bad sign, an insult even, could that potentially lead to internal strife?
Do we know the cause of the forest fires in this instance? Was it just a dry period and some underbrush was set alight by the temperatures?
Interesting. So the main barrier to us building large stone fortifications is that we discovered bricks(and by extension, ceramics in general) early, so the stoneworking industry will get relatively less investment to develop advanced masonry until rams show up which make stone wall faces worth the added costs.
...or we can pump Defense and Elitism traits, so the combination drives the development of impressive defense structures as a prestige symbol. Its pretty cool how many early civilization ideas were great at reaching logical conclusions through illogical processes, which skips the steps to justify it properly and goes to the desired outcome.
Yes.
Once you figure out the concept behind watchtowers. They're likely to be less useful than you think, however. The forests that surround you have tress that are easily 40-50 feet tall. Vision to the horizon is extremely short. If you're up high enough to be above the treeline, then you're too high to see anyone sneaking in underneath it. They would be helpful only in watching your riverrine trade routes.
Citizens are expected to work to feed and clothe themselves. The problem is, in this day in age, that means being trusted with weapons or with very little supervision. Even going out to harvest rice involves being given a canoe with the understanding you'll come back in a few days. That's not really something that can realistically be expected of a prisoner. Prisoners tend to do labour which can be accomplished entirely in camp i.e. construction, tanning leather, or food preparation (though that don't do that any more).
Yes. It's very hard to determine how valuable things are sometimes. Everyone agrees that if you spend 10,000 calories building a canoe, you should get that much food back. However, they recognize that spending 10,000 calories collecting quartz and 10,000 calories tanning leather is not equal. The later is objectively more horrible than the latter so it should rewarded more. How this reward is determined is extremely arbitrary.
To prevent cheaters for intra-tribe trade, you can appeal to the local Big Man or whoever on his Slate has had dispute resolution delegated to them (usually a trusted friend/elder of the Big Man). For inter-tribal trade, cheaters don't really prosper. You can usually cheat, once, and get away with it, but you'll never be trusted again. People are extremely protective of their reputations. A reputation for trustworthiness can save your life if you're injured or sick and can't feed yourself. Or if you're simply unlucky in catching food.
You don't have dedicate merchants yet. There's not enough Hierarchy or Specialization in your society to be able to do that.
Depends on the government type. Currently, Legitimacy is tied to the Ruler.
You're good for millennia. Everything west of the White River is clay-based soil until you get into the foothills to the west. Arrow Lake is also primarily clay-based as well.
Nope, should've picked Study Fire. That would've gotten you interesting stuff. Some of the best stuff is stuck behind Study Fire.
You would get to decide that in the update where it becomes relevant. It will be a vote.
They would probably come and try to trade with you. If, at that point, you refused, they would be pretty pissed. Kaspar's going to take Trade: Northern Hinterlands next turn. If you don't take it the turn after that, he would be pissed because that would've secured it as an automatic action. If the Northern Hinterlands lose access to obsidian, that means more of them are going to die on dangerous hunts where they wouldn't have before. They'll understand if something happens to you, but not if you just stop trading with them.
Yes. And...
*rolls dice*
Oh... man, hmmm...
Well the South Lake didn't end up biting you as the hand that feeds them (1 roll lower on the dice roller)... The remnants of the Hundred Bands are supper pissed, however. The Island Makers are too, but not to the same degree.
Yes.
Pick Study Fire when it's available after a forest fire. Study Fire has all sorts of goodies. It's probably the best Study action you have access to. Ember-Eyes OP.
Votes Closed. Winner:
[X] [Refugees] "Embrace them as Brothers and Sisters. Divide them among the People's settlements." (-1 Stability)
[X] [Settlement] New friends? (Trade: South Lake)
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Lol, guess @Japanime was right and were now going to be a very bad position, thats great.
*I mean it was obvious, but still*
*Sarcasm*
Good job picking contradictory votes
*Sarcasm*
Good job picking contradictory votes
*Sarcasm*
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Diploing all the things tends to mean eating your foot.
Oh well fun ahead.
Oh well fun ahead.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Only if your being bad about it, we could have done this ANY time later, but we had to do it while integrating a tribe whose families were gutted and enslaved.
Edit: I feel partially responsible because i didn't really discuss or push for the not dumb option. I thought it was so obvious.
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- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
I guess I should have stated that 'diploing all the things at the same time tends to mean eating your foot'
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
That doesn't go far enough, Diploing arch enemies at the same time as your integrate one into your society while that side has families slaughtered at the hands of the other faction and then enslaved. I don't think I can emphasize enough how stupid this vote was.
- Location
- USA
Yeah...I kind of saw that coming so this result was not a surprise for me at all. Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
I'm not proud to say so but I guess I do deserve to say I told you so.
By trying to do Diplo with one tribe we screwed up relations within our own tribe, as well as pissed off an unrelated tribe. Now we have internal and external enemies, something we could have avoided if people actually discussed rather than bandwagon a vote.
Oh well I tried my best to reason with others but there's not much you can do if no one is willing to engage you or speak to you.
I really think we need a moratorium on voting because this could have been easily avoided.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
My biggest problem is that it is so blindingly obvious, even i overlooked it at first, but as soon as you commented on it, Noone should have voted for it. But your right about the bandwagon effect.
Edit: We can only hope our Hero is able to mitigate our, the voters, stupidity and bandwagoning.
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- Location
- USA
That's the main issue. No one talked to each other. I find it vaguely ironic that for the people who voted for diplomacy in order to start a dialogue or what have you, they failed to do so within the quest itself and just blindingly charged ahead.
Is the lesson of context matters something we really need to reiterate? Because just because the QM chastised us one time on diplomacy does not mean that we need to choose diplomacy all the time. That is pretty evident here.
Furthermore I wasn't even the first one to bring this issue forward.
He did as well, but just like with me no one bothered to argue, debate, or discuss. They simply ignored the issue. Which again I find odd considering how much the QM put an emphasis in it in the foreword:
Considering the fact that the QM even later informed us of a better way to integrate the Hundred Bands, fat chance of this going well now, leads me to believe that absolutely no one reads discussion or even the word of Qm save for updates.
Oh well I tried.
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Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
I read them
But yea, i find myself wondering why this only has 54 pages, where as POC had 10x that at this point already. are they burnt out by POC and didn't come here? Idk, but the ones to have 100 page discussions are not here. And i cannot do it alone *I have the most replies in the thread, so i am doing some discussion at the least*
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
- Location
- USA
I read them
But yea, i find myself wondering why this only has 54 pages, where as POC had 10x that at this point already. are they burnt out by POC and didn't come here? Idk, but the ones to have 100 page discussions are not here. And i cannot do it alone *I have the most replies in the thread, so i am doing some discussion at the least*
Probably because POC has a much more well known QM, no offense.
As for discussion I try to engage in discussion now exactly to point out stuff like this. However I am only one person and don't know everything, I admit that, however it's hard to care about discussion when you spend so much time writing out a piece only for no one to engage you, like now.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
I might have engaged you if i well.. Disagreed with you, but i didn't
That is very unfortunate. You had @Oshha engage for a little bit. somewhat.
Understandable, even the Heavy hitters with 1000s of replies in POC like veekie vote here but are not very vocal like they were there.
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- Location
- USA
I think the main issue here that led to a lack of discussion was the timing of everything. The update was posted on the Saturday before Easter Sunday, an event that most people including the QM would be busy and not checking or reading stuff like this. The fact that this led up to a Monday, the start of the workweek for many probably didn't help.
I'd ask for the QM to extend the voting period but now that the result is known I doubt he'll do so considering everyone will now vote for everything but that.
Edit: @Redium You aren't right?
Not sure it would've mattered if no one reads the discussion.
I'd ask for the QM to extend the voting period but now that the result is known I doubt he'll do so considering everyone will now vote for everything but that.
Edit: @Redium You aren't right?
Not sure it would've mattered if no one reads the discussion.
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Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Maybe... Idk what else we can do, if we could get people that love to discuss things extensively like they did in POC it'd be great, we wouldn't even need a moratorium as much anymore since small votes like these would have talks up the ass, but... i do not know how we can fix this other than making sure we quote and persuade as many as possible when a vote comes.
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
For me, it is a mixture of lacking time to reply as often as I would like and the civ being quite slow to advance compared to PoC or Yucatan. The former can be seen as I was unable to respond to Japanime's reply to my own post due to RL constraints. As for the latter, this quest, Kiba Civ and Indus are still too early in development for me to properly understand and get attached to them though with this one, it is less due to the quest being small, but rather due to how early this quest's civ is in development. I find it harder to get attached to a stone age civ. I was the same in Yucatan. Once we get to a properly level of development, I will be get more involved as I will be aware of what is going on.
Also, the lack of stats is throwing me off slightly as I don't have anything clear cut to deal with. I also have my own quest to deal with and that is taking up most of my attention on SV/SB right now.
Once we get out of semi-generic stone age tribe stage and into a more developed civ with its own unique culture and history, I will be more involved (providing RL allows me to).
Also, the lack of stats is throwing me off slightly as I don't have anything clear cut to deal with. I also have my own quest to deal with and that is taking up most of my attention on SV/SB right now.
Once we get out of semi-generic stone age tribe stage and into a more developed civ with its own unique culture and history, I will be more involved (providing RL allows me to).
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- Location
- USA
I was thinking about mass tagging but I'm pretty sure that would've backfired if I did so.
I have no idea how to fix this, the consequences now will helpfully reinforce this but I don't know if people will learn the right lesson this time.
That's understandable.
That may be why people aren't staying or discussing, they simply don't have the knowledge they feel is sufficient to reply, yet in this case I am still scratching my head wondering how people could cite for this.
This wasn't an issue if complex tactics or Stone Age knowledge but one of empathy, putting yourselves in the shoes of another.
I've already said my piece on this issue. It's instances like this that make me not want to try anymore.