Regarding that map, is anyone interested in pushing settlement in between our current settlements? It won't have a particularly interesting natural feature to exploit, but it would consolidate our lands and form the core of a more advanced nation.
While the enemy can get through wood walls, it definitely isn't easy. Stone walls risk sieges with no defense but waiting. e should at least be able to fire back first and can upgrade to stone as the enemy finds new ways to assault wood walls while under arrow fire.
Regarding the worry about enemy shields: We specialize in the use of fire and fire-altered stuff for war. We'll figure out throwing some kind of hot liquid stuff down the walls soon enough. And there's always large falling rocks (perfect for smashing shields and heads) barring that.
Considering how the Hundred Bands got through our wooden palisade twice, I'd say that they did get through our wooden walls rather easily. The difference between circumventing wooden walls with firing platforms and solid brick walls are that the technology currently exists to defeat the former while it will likely take a long while for technology to be created to defeat the latter. Adding firing platforms doesn't change the fact that our walls would still be made of wood and can be cut down by axes like they have time and time again. While archers firing down upon will certainly slow down the enemy and make their attempt harder, the fact is they already have the perfect tool for mitigating that: shields. All it takes would be a change in tactics, something that can be done on the fly rather than having to be innovate over time, and the enemy could simply go pseudo-testudo formation on us to protect their axes while they work. Considering how previously deficient our normal arrows have worked against them before I do not doubt they will prove the same again, especially since it seems like their shields are improving, going from rawhide to wicker shields in a generation. For the brick walls the only way to assault those are to build siege engines like battering rams, something I doubt they will invent anytime soon.
All of the wall options here make us susceptible for sieges. Let's face it, like the QM has said, our forces are good in the skirmish phrase, but when it comes to decisive field engagements we lack because our hunters are just that, hunters. From what we've seen from the Hundred Bands and the Barrow Builders it seems like they have dedicated warriors. What use are war clubs when it comes to hunting animal? What use are shields? No those two innovations are specifically designed for warfare. By simply camping away from any of our walls be it a brick wall, multiple walls, or ones with arrow platforms they can effectively siege us by preventing us from getting provisions. So in reality all of the options here do nothing to stop us from getting besieged, there are no wall options that wouldn't. The key difference here however is that the brick wall would make it so that their only choice is to besiege us, which as I will describe below is a suboptimal decision.
Finally as for the idea of raining fire or got liquid down upon our enemies, that seems like it is a further innovation down the line as the option specified here is for firing platforms. To develop the innovations you are talking about we would probably need a tool like pulleys to make those effective countermeasures.
We could fallback and move around them so we are now attacking their flank while they are busy trying to chop down a section of walls, after all, this is more realistic setting, not like strongehold games where you got a birds eye view and a map/radar of the enemies movements this is a perfect tactic to use against primitive cultures.
The key problem with this idea is the fact that we are not at an advantage when it comes to decisive engagements. All of our Southern neighbors save for the Arrow Lake tribe seem to have warriors who excel in open field engagements. It wouldn't be particularly hard for them to simply just turn their shields toward the flank attack and defend against it that way.
Or we could get brick walls and watch them scale it. Or be trap by our brick walls as they instead use our settlements hunting grounds waiting to starve us out, they dont have to win, they just have to outlast us.
The same could happen with any of the other wall options as I've said above. Building multiple walls will not stop them from simply surrounding the outer walls and keeping us from gathering provisions of our own. The difference is that multiple wooden walls can be cut down by axes, a brick wall would take dedicated siege engines.
A siege in fact is actually preferable for us. Remember just last turn we innovated rice domestication. That means we now have a grain we can use for agriculture, specifically a grain we can store for later if we have surpluses. Right now everyone else are hunter gatherer societies as well. Every day and week that a large number of their hunters and warriors are away besieging us is another day or week that they are not providing food for their families. The fact is due to our unique situation a siege is preferable to us. While the invaders could hunt within our area to keep themselves provisioned we have the benefit of having a second settlement which could send reinforcements to lift the siege.
Another consideration is that in war having a militia will increase food expenditures. No one wants to die so they train as hard as they can during war. While the difference between 'average Joe' and 'warrior Joe' isn't very great, it's going to grow a lot as you shift more towards an agriculture economy. A militia also means that everyone needs to train for war. It's significantly more energy efficient just to have a small group train exclusively. The return on investment for 10 people burning an extra 300 calories a day is minimal compared to one person dedicated all of their time and 3,000 calories a day.
There's a reason that for most of history there was an immense pressure towards elite soldiers. The citizen-soldiers of Ancient Greece, probably what people think of when they hear about citizens armies, were actually elites. The average hoplite was a small-hold farmer with a small number of slaves to labour away on their behalf. By no means were they representative of the average, we just often forget about the immense amount of free labour in early societies.
More or less the militia is going to be a 'social equity' and 'defensive war' pick really. Elites are AMAZING at least until the iron age(where agricultural productivity explodes), but with our values...well Elite Warriors + Solve Problems with Violence => Elite Warriors ruling class Solving Problems with Violence => Solve the problem of needing more elites by violently taking stuff away from the bottom rungs to fund more elites.
Which is not a strike against. Lots of successful societies do it!
Monopoly on violence is a very stable way to rule and its one of the ways to develop pottery/metalworking quickly by working the low rung society members to the bone so you can have a longer chain of people doing Not Food things.
If you're looking for low-tech slave using societies, look at the Iroquois or North American West Coast Native American tribes. Both of them participated in the slave trade to a significant degree - the latter had up to 25% of their population in bondage! That's a rate rivaled by Rome at its height.
Really? Do you have a link for the place where you read this, or the name of the article or something like that? I am quite interested in reading this myself.
Our dip into agriculture would be extremely benefitted by slaves, and any Sparta like situation that might arise can be mitigated by not relying SOLELY on slaves to do our food gathering... but thats not likely to win
Important element. They managed it only because they were completely unopposed. You'd find most people aren't fanatic enough to hack at a log while arrows rain down and their shields are not perfect. It'd take less time to saturate their shields than to cut through the logs.
Important element. They managed it only because they were completely unopposed. You'd find most people aren't fanatic enough to hack at a log while arrows rain down and their shields are not perfect. It'd take less time to saturate their shields than to cut through the logs.
That may be so but unlike with the firing platforms, if we ever get caught by surprise again like with the recent invasion where the Hundred Bands were able to catch our hunters outside in the spring then brick walls would still allow us to hold out against any enemy assault, long enough for help to arrive, whereas a firing platform would be degraded. Furthermore a wooden palisade even with firing platforms would still be susceptible to a fire attack which only failed before due to the weather conditions.
Considering the fact that the QM just confirmed that all of the options here will be available later on I would prefer that we choose a wall improvement that is essentially impenetrable for the near future and which can be upgraded later rather than risking another assault.
Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Mar 19, 2018 at 12:39 AM, finished with 67 posts and 27 votes.
Regarding that map, is anyone interested in pushing settlement in between our current settlements? It won't have a particularly interesting natural feature to exploit, but it would consolidate our lands and form the core of a more advanced nation.
Once we get that done, I'd like to (eventually, as there's a even bigger gap than between our current settlements) grab the spot on the sea that's not right next to the Peace Seekers. All those rivers and sea access makes it a great future trade site, and the southern spot is too close to the Peace Seekers (and would be a bit redundant if/when we end up conquering the treacherous bastards).
I think we should purposely make some mistakes, mistakes can cause people to look for solutions to a problem. We make more walls, someone will notice that the walls aren't very good, and realize the walls of their house is better, then make the suggestion to make the inner walls of the main settlement stone, while the walls outside wood. Thus we get a two for one by taking advantage of the mistake. That is if we can do something like that, is there a dice roll or something for such a situation?
I dont want us to end up isolated as well so I figure next turn we are trading up the wazoo for the next hundreds of years.
I think we should purposely make some mistakes, mistakes can cause people to look for solutions to a problem. We make more walls, someone will notice that the walls aren't very good, and realize the walls of their house is better, then make the suggestion to make the inner walls of the main settlement stone, while the walls outside wood. Thus we get a two for one by taking advantage of the mistake. That is if we can do something like that, is there a dice roll or something for such a situation?
I dont want us to end up isolated as well so I figure next turn we are trading up the wazoo for the next hundreds of years.
Considering the fact that the QM just confirmed that all of the options here will be available later on I would prefer that we choose a wall improvement that is essentially impenetrable for the near future and which can be upgraded later rather than risking another assault.
On the other hand, the more impenetrable our defense right now, the less likely that we quickly develop better defense. It may sound counter-intuitive but I'd rather have good success shooting people from above and a close call when they adapt to find a way through our walls despite that instead of waiting on platforms till a later date when they exploit the fact that our brick walls wall us in as they wall us out. Or worse, someone develops siege works and we have zero defense.
It might look like we are playing two villages in a stone age war but actually we are guiding a civilization.
On the other hand, the more impenetrable our defense right now, the less likely that we quickly develop better defense. It may sound counter-intuitive but I'd rather have good success shooting people from above and a close call when they adapt to find a way through our walls despite that instead of waiting on platforms till a later date when they exploit the fact that our brick walls wall us in as they wall us out. Or worse, someone develops siege works and we have zero defense.
It might look like we are playing two villages in a stone age war but actually we are guiding a civilization.
We literally have a Value for our People's want and need for defense, so I'm rather doubtful that following that desire will lead to us developing slower when it comes to fortifications. The options we have now aren't exclusive, we can start on towers next turn when we're practically invulnerable.
As for Siege Weapons, we're in the dawn of the Agricultural Revolution. Siege Weapons won't be a thing anytime soon, especially not next turn when the Hundred haven't even seen our new and improved wall. They lack the technology or the tactics to exploit "low on food outside enemy settlement despite foraging, while villagers feast and jeer at our futile attempts at trying to chop through brick".
Value Gained: Honoured Elite!
The People are one. From the youngest child to the greatest elder, all of them are family. Kith and kin. There is no greater calling than to develop your skills and put them to the People's use. Skill with the bow, the spear, and the club are particularly valued.
Pros: Martial gains per-unit is higher, chance to develop potent Martial traditions.
Cons: Social stratification, increased potential Martial loss in combat
[X] [War Debt] Select Raiders by Lot
[X] [Wall] Change the walls materials to tougher brick!
Kaspar frowned as he counted up the numbers of those accompanying him back to the Fingers; there were fewer than he had expected. As a young war-leader, he had seen first hand how the conflict with the Hundred Bands had been developing and the signs for the People were promising, but also mixed. They People had won a slight, but noticeably greater, number of encounters with the Hundred Bands than the enemy had. He wasn't sure if the difference was large enough to attribute to luck over skill, but there was a distinct sense of promising victory carried back home on his companions' steps.
What concerned him, however, was the increased number of the dead. The People won a greater number of encounters and took home more prisoners, but after the fighting was done and the dead were counted, more of the People died. Already, Kaspar could tell that the loses were not going to be sustainable. Based on information they'd gained from questioning captives from the Hundred Bands, it sounded like the People had always been less numerous than their rivals and they now were bleeding faster.
The Hundred Bands on the other hand had been numerous, but fractious. The Hundred Isles that they lived on promoted an individualistic, pioneering spirit. This division was becoming less and less pronounced as the war with the People dragged on, however. The Big Man that had previously led raids against the People ended up losing his position after he returned to the south. The sheer number of followers who had died under his leadership, those who had abandoned him shortly thereafter, as well as his personal injuries proved a potent cocktail. The man had ended up dead in a hunting accident within a single moon of his return.
While his life had been cut short, his legacy slowly percolated amongst the Hundred Bands. They saw his death and recognized his failure, but it seemed that the Hundred Bands didn't take that as a warning. Instead, they had taken it as a dare: "Do Better, Be Better," was a common saying among their tribe. The defeat and downfall of their Big Man, had galvanized them, inspiring countless more young men who wanted to be Big Men in their own right, to gather up a group of their friends and take a swing at the People.
In many ways, the Hundred Bands had embraced the method of war that the People had turned away from. From what Kaspar had heard of the time before his birth, the People had treated war the same way. Perhaps that change had been the difference that had led to more of the People dying? It was irrelevant, though. The Hundred Bands were not the People and that was something that Kaspar was glad of.
It wasn't like there had been any other options in the end for their previous Big Man? Kaspar knew that the People were already building up a worrying number of captured young men from the Hundred Bands. Perhaps he should rephrase that; the main worry was not their numbers, but their ambition. The Hundred Bands only sent their best on missions of war, individuals that wouldn't easily submit and were used to violence. Combined with the People's proportionally higher loses, there were problems brewing there. Ones that would have to be solved either with a soft voice or a big stick.
On the other hand, making hunters-of-men into a specialized group and giving them Specific Duty, might have ended poorly as well. Kaspar knew that many of his peers were a little bit too free to resort to violence in order to solve disputes. He could see the need of it in the field where questioning orders could mean death, but fighting back in camp over women? He rolled his eyes. The effort on attracting a woman could better be spent on learning how to make their toes curl as opposed to beating off a group of other young men.
Clearing a final bend in the river, Kaspar smiled as he finally laid eyes upon the Fingers once again. He had been down south, skirmishing with the Hundred Bands for too long. The better part of two years he'd been on the front, and he'd only been able to spend that much time because he'd defied the set rotation. He knew that the People were having problems on the front and he couldn't abandon them. There were so many; young adults, barely more than children, and even those of middle-years, who were completely unused to the rhythmic back and forth of the front. Days, even weeks could go by, only for the silent stillness to be punctuated by rapid hours of extreme violence.
When he finally walked through the huge wooden gates, he wasn't sure what to expect. Whatever it was, it certainly was not the Wolf-Tooth Necklace of the Brother Wolf. The symbol of leadership among the Fingers was a simple necklace made from the teeth of a she-wolf. As the stories went, they were the teeth of the wolf spirit that had been the first to stand beside the People. She had died, protecting the People from a great orker, the deadliest of all beasts. In recompense for that, the People had taken in her pups, raising them as brother and as sister.
"The shaman agree," the eldest of the elders whispered softly. All of the People, from the youngest babe to the oldest elder had gathered in the center of the Fingers, their eyes watching the proceedings. A few strangled cheers started as the oldest spoke. "The young agree. The elders agree. All who can speak, speak for you. Kaspar. We would name you Big Man of the Fingers. Deep in the forests, you've proven your worth in skirmish after skirmish. You have earned the citrine bead of the Ember-Eyes younger than any other. The weapon that you created has already earned you acclaim of even our worst enemies. They fear you. They fear the Blacksword, and they should fear the People. Take up this mantle and rise. Rise!" the old man managed to shout.
The cheers grew, rebounding off each other and swelling like the tides until the finally crashed down and nearly blew Kaspar off his feet. In defiance of custom, the People surged up as one to offer their congratulations. People clapped him on the back, pressed gifts into his hands, and whispered words of encouragement into his ears. He recognized everyone that came to congratulate him. Men and women who'd taken injuries, scars, fighting against the Hundred Bands. Others were people he recognized from training with the Ember-Eyes. Still more were women he'd known, friends and family members. He knew he'd had many friends, people he could laugh with over a campfire in the evening, but to see this many?
Something grew deep within his chest; Kaspar let out a whoop of satisfaction, holding the Necklace of Brother Wolf up for all to see. The joy surrounding him could almost hide the dark undercurrents and eddies within the People. There were some, mostly on the outermost fringe of the crowd that looked at him with ill disguised unease. Some, Kaspar would even suggest, with hate.
Most of them were elders, skeptical at one so young who'd been given the necklace. There were others, other men of middle-age who looked on with jealousy. They had participated in the war against the Hundred Bands, slowly gathering acclaim in the hopes of being awarded the necklace. They'd failed, many crashing and burning horrifically. After the last Big Man had ordered the People to select their warriors by lot, many of the previous warriors were suddenly saddled with the massive debts they had accumulated with no easy way to pay for them. No longer could they avoid paying them under the aegis of them being debts acquired in the course of an assigned Specific Duty.
Many of those warriors had become Debtors. Others outright abandoned the People, refusing to countenance the risks they took being ignored while they were forced into Debt. Some of them went to Arrow Lake, while others went up into the Hinterlands north of the Great River. Others quietly paid off their Debts, but all but the blindest of the People knew that resentment burned in their hearts. Those people formed a core, augmented by friends and family who suffered while their fathers and brothers paid off Debt.
Kaspar knew, even without thinking about it, that they would be a problem. Here he stood, recognized as the Big Man while they worked for it for years, only to have it snatched away from them before being forced into Debt. The fact that he had earned the title by defying the lot rotation must have been like lime brushed into the wounds. It was good, then, that he knew how to take the heart out of the movement, bloodlessly and easily.
"Hold!" he shouted, trying to get the attention of those celebrating him. "Hold! I would name my slate!" That quickly caused the People to quiet. If a Big Man was like a hand, directing, guiding, and organizing the People, then the slate were his closest aids and supporters, like the nail on each finger. Most of the people that Kaspar met were received with cheers; a shaman, an Ember-Eye, a mother and father, two elders, as well as three of his own close friends and family. It was a careful balance between rewarding friends, welding potential threats to your side, and undermining the ambitious by taking their key supporters. What surprised everyone was the last person he named, "Maksus!"
The boy's eyes shot up and his mouth almost dropped open at the pronouncement. His father quickly clapped Maksus on the back and pushed him forward, his happiness visible to all. Kaspar had met him on the front. A few years younger than himself, Maksus was an extremely skilled warrior. He was better than Kaspar in a direct fight, if he had to fight, but he didn't quite seem to grasp the flow and counter-flow of war as easily. Aside from his young age (which, Kaspar admitted, he was not one to throw stones about), he would be an excellent pick as a subordinate war leader.
The part which made him truly sublime? His father was the unofficial second in command of the Old Warriors. When the unofficial leader saw his second offer encouragement, for a position that should have been his, the coalition fractured. Kaspar suspected that there would be some violence between the two of them, but it would be firmly divided and die out once one side lost. Whoever won, they would be no threat to his rule.
Celebrations lasted well into the night and as dawn broke the next day, Kaspar organized his slate and assign them to tasks.
Kaspar's first order of business was to order additional rice grown along the banks of the Great River. The fact that seeding it could provide a reliable increase in food production was immense. Normally, it took active effort from the People in order to acquire food. Hunting was risky and often left more than a few men maimed each year. Having a reliable, safe way to gather food was revolutionary.
The chewy, vegetable taste of the new grain quickly caught on with the rest of the People under Kaspar's enthusiastic leadership. It was not spread around the Fingers, but at Crystal Lake instead. Kaspar had been worried about the plant being taken up by the Hundred Bands. He had decided against contesting the Hundred Bands and instead planned to simply let them break upon the People's defenses. The new brick walls they had installed at the Fingers were virtually impervious. It was better for the People to allow the Hundred Bands to break themselves against their walls. The People had learned from their defeats. If the Hundred Bands came against them, they could stand comfortably behind their walls and unleash targeted streams of arrows back. If the Hundred Bands settled in long enough to begin forming a settlement as a point of resupply, then the People would root them out.
Within a few years, the People of Crystal Lake had noticed a curious phenomenon. There was a type of animal, rat-like things, that built huge wooden structures, stopping up rivers and flooding large sections into wetlands. This created enormous areas where waterborne plants could grow and flourish. The People could emulate this, building dams along smaller tributary branches of the Great River, flooding large sections of the nearby terrain. Massive amounts of rice could be grown in these places. There was even a section of the river where the it could be possible to build a man-made lake!
While it was an interesting thought, it would be one for the distant future. The rivers that made up most of the People's territory were only sparsely covered with rice. There was no need yet for an ambitious project when smaller ones would do.
Careful cultivation also fed into another major project of Kaspar's, the Runner's Relay. By pairing all of the bunkhouses necessary to house and support the runners that would carry messages, the People could ensure that their messengers would be properly fed. Rice was only an annual plant, but the amount that could be cultivated with only minimal effort was quite significant. There was some disagreements on how one should know whether it was their time to tend the rice or be preparing to run the relay, but that was solved by making them draw lots weekly.
Additional workers from the Fingers were sent to Crystal Lake to help them build a wall in emulation of the People of the Fingers. The Great Bay to the west had been quiet for years, but Kaspar didn't like it. He had a feeling that once the Barrow Builders had finished digesting the Peace Seekers, they would being spreading to the north and east. The People would be on their sights next.
When Arrow Lake returned for one of their frequent trade missions, the People could greet them with a new, more practical magic. By adding lime to animals fats, the Ember-Eyes had produced something they called soap. The addition of lime caused the fats to harden into a wet, almost chalky substance. The Ember-Eye who had been responsible for cleaning up the 'failed' experiment had noticed that the new substance became extremely slippery after they tried to wash it off. Further tests showed that not only did it make things extremely slippery, but it actually cut through dirt, messes and stains.
The new invention had quickly become extremely popular among Debtors and others involved in the tanning of leather. The stench that accompanied the activity could, blessedly, finally be cleaned out with a large amount of soap and some solid scrubbing. Hunters also quickly found a use for it, cleaning themselves after a kill in order to get rid of blood and reduce the cloying scent of death that followed them.
After trade negotiations with Arrow Lake finished up at the Fingers (a delegation was sent to follow up), the People congratulated themselves on a deal well struck. When a group of canoes showed up, paddling casually, they were confused. Had Arrow Lake been dissatisfied with their products? They were clearly not of the Hundred Bands, they lacked the distinctive war-skull fastened to the lead canoe.
When the small group of canoes pulled up on the shores of the Fingers, they spoke in a very poor, broken dialect of the People. Their tongues were almost unintelligible. What was clear was that they were cautiously interested in an exchange of gifts. They clearly did not expect to find the People, but managed to scramble enough of an offering as to not be blatantly insulting guests. There was not enough to truly trade, but there was enough to show a sampling of their goods. Most were of little interest. The only thing that caught Kaspar's eye was a set of extremely long bones - teeth - the strangers alleged, that came from a great beast. It was a relatively soft material and could be carved quite intricately. Pretty, similar to quartz, amethyst and citrine, but not terribly useful in contrast to the People's obsidian or sugar.
Once the gifts were finally exchanged, Kaspar organized a tail for the convoy of newcomers. Instead of going north, like he expected, they went west as he feared. The Great River branched between the Fingers and River-Bend, with a great fork going off to the north. That was where the newcomers were last sighted heading. The tail followed them up the river for a while, but the strangers were easily lost in the meandering twists and turn of the river. They had strangers in the midst of the People, potentially separating Crystal Lake from the Fingers if issues were to develop. Kaspar knew that this needed a response.
[ ] [Strangers] War! (Raid: Into The North)
[ ] [Strangers] Trade? (Trade Mission: Into The North)
[ ] [Strangers] Focus on securing the routes between the People (Runner's Relay 4/5)
[ ] [Strangers] Lock down the strangers' access to the Great River (Found Settlement (River-Bend); -1 Stability; admin strain)
AN: Your rolls were average in all categories but bullshit in one. Kaspar is a quad Hero (Diplo, Martial, Art, Admin) and his lieutenant in Maksus is a Martial Hero. 2nd highest rolls in the quest.
It was merely forgotten; it's on the sheet now as well as the other goodies you've earned this turn. You still have it, but it's taken a severe beating with your recent decisions. It's possible it will get side-graded soon.
Hmmm, our population should EXPLODE soon, what with Rice produced, defense being somewhat secured, and sanitation increasing immensely.
Even if early agriculture sucks, all these factors together will lead into a higher birth rate and survival rate.
