From Stone to the Stars
- Thread starter Redium
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
One at a time. We might pick up the rest later on innovation rolls. The Brick Wall upgrade is practically inevitable for instance, the Towers are more variable(its on the table this time because we realized that they could just attack the wall without any resistance hitting back), and the bailey(because we couldn't get our dependents to safety while the warriors fought) likewise.
- Location
- USA
While I do agree that we need towers eventually added to our outer perimeter defenses I don't really think the time to do it is now. It's not because the towers wouldn't given us an advantage in being able to better respond to enemy raiders or invaders, they definitely would, but at the moment due to the technologies that we know are currently in use they would not be the best advantage for us defensively compared to the brick wall option.
To illustrate my point, I will use examples of previous recent attacks against us as evidence:
As we can see during the first raid, and later the second successful sack by the Northern Hundred Bands, even when facing against a weakened and a not as large force our archers in these decisive engagements upon open ground are not very effective due to the large wood and hide shields used by the enemy. Unless we are able to significantly increase production of obsidian arrows we likely would face the same problem even if we rebuilt the palisade and added towers to use as firing platforms. While the Hundred Bands are not in a position to mount such an attack like this again due to the distances involved, I do not think we should count out the possibility that other tribes may have the same capabilities to make shields as well. While our forces may be skilled in the skirmish and raiding phases of these conflicts, the fact that our offensive weapon advantage in the bow and arrow is negated by the shield technology of the enemy is not something that erecting some towers is going to fix, at least not when taken in conjunction with the other issue I am about to discuss next.
As has been reiterated by the QM before, right now raids such as this on this scale are often energy negative activities. While inflicting casualties is certainly one way for us to defeat an enemy trying to assault our settlement, it is not the only way. As noted in the quoted text above even the People knew that sometimes the best tactic at defeating the enemy in raids like this was to simply outlast them. Not all battles are won on the field, sometimes in antiquity being able to outlast your enemy through having a larger amount of food stores, something we are going to be able to viciously exploit soon with the rice we can now grow, was enough. When it comes to the innovation that would be best at allowing us to outlast our enemies in these battles it is not the firing platforms but instead the brick walls which I believe will serve the best in that capacity as can be illustrated below.
As you mentioned in your reasoning before, at this point in time any enemy trying to assault a brick made wall with an axe is going to be doing so in futility. Until our enemies develop credible siege weapons such as scaling ladders or battering rams our brick walls should be impervious to some of the enemy's more common assault tactics, that of either trying to break down the wall with axes or through burning it down. From my understanding of the current options if we choose to improve through adding firing platforms the palisade will still be made out of wood. As seen in the excerpt above the only reason why the Hundred Bands' assault force failed in their attempt to set the palisade on fire was due to the recent weather and time of the year making it so that a fire would never catch on the palisade. It is likely that if anyone were to try this in summer, the effect would be much different, especially if the summer is a dry one. When it comes to a brick wall we do not have to worry about an enemy trying to set our wall alight as our wall is already resistant to those sorts of attacks due to its construction material. In short, unlike a wooden palisade wall, a brick wall does not have the same deficiencies when it comes to fire attacks or assaults by axes.
Again, while I do believe that we will need to get platforms for our archers to fire upon eventually, at this moment the current parity between wicker/hide shields and our bows and arrows makes it so that the platforms are not the most ideal choice. Every time we've nearly lost a siege or invasion it has come down to one weakness and one tactic that always allowed the enemy to fight us on their terms. That was whenever the palisade fell. While firing platforms would likely serve to bloody any enemy attempt to hack down our walls once again, if we face a sufficiently motivated enemy with enough numbers to either weather our archer fire or have enough shields to block our fire, then we will fall to the same tactic that we have before. The enemy successfully breaches our walls with axemen, we have a fight within the settlement itself, and the outcome could simply be up to a die roll.
While I don't believe we will likely suffer any large scale invasions any time soon, though I do have a suspicion that we might see the Barrow Builders again due to the noted warring down south and their making the Peace Seekers an essential client state, that does not mean we should ignore the lessons of the past. Let's not have there be a third times the charm when it comes to enemies literally doing this:
Personally speaking, I think all of these options are inevitable down the line. While some might take more time than others to innovate, our new trait regarding defensive constructions should allow us more leeway and options in that regard as it was stated to do so. The main reason I want us to build a brick wall now rather than later is because right now in this time period we are in, it is the best option for us. If we had a brick wall when the Hundred Bands attacked the second time around we may not be in the situation we are now, as a brick wall would have likely either made it so that the attacking enemy force from the south would have given up due to lack of provisions or due to the fact that reinforcements from Crystal Lake were incoming.
You are right that we do need to deal with the fact that our palisade does not allow us to actively retaliate against an attacking enemy, however due to the fact that the shield technology of now is enough to mitigate a good portion of our bows' offensive capabilities, save when we use obsidian arrows, I do not think it is prudent to invest in firing platforms as that leaves us with the same wooden palisades we had before only with more firing platforms. Those firing platforms can be negated by simply having teams of men hold shields to protect the axemen sent to breach the palisade. However, neither axemen nor fire are sufficient tools for breaking down any brick walls we build. Building those walls, in conjunction with the runner's relay megaproject we are undertaking to expedite communication will likely help us more defensively, in both making it so we can either outlast a siege or get reinforcements in time to relieve one. That is why I believe a brick wall is a better option here.
We can always try to innovate firing platforms after this, especially since we have a value that will likely help us to do so.
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LucidProp
Pocky Eating MafiaDoka
Let's examine the Techs we and the Hundred Band have.
We have: Sugar as Preservatives and Food, Obsidian Weaponry, Brick, Rudimentary Armor
The Hundred Band have: Rudimentary Armor, Shields, 2 Handed Axes
As the update told us, despite being able to preserve food, we can hardly supply our Raiders to attack the Hundred Band. Imagine how much more difficult it is for the enemy. If they ever come in force again, they'll have to loot our stores for food, and they can't do that if they can't chop through our walls with their axes. The elevated platforms and multiple layers meanwhile, doesn't stop the enemy from breaching our wall as assuredly as a Brick Wall will.
The shields help negate a good majority of arrow fire, and I'd rather not spend an action repairing a hole in our outer wall since the Hundred Band can still chop through wood. With the Brick Wall, we don't even have to fight. We just outlast the enemy and let them starve.
We have: Sugar as Preservatives and Food, Obsidian Weaponry, Brick, Rudimentary Armor
The Hundred Band have: Rudimentary Armor, Shields, 2 Handed Axes
As the update told us, despite being able to preserve food, we can hardly supply our Raiders to attack the Hundred Band. Imagine how much more difficult it is for the enemy. If they ever come in force again, they'll have to loot our stores for food, and they can't do that if they can't chop through our walls with their axes. The elevated platforms and multiple layers meanwhile, doesn't stop the enemy from breaching our wall as assuredly as a Brick Wall will.
The shields help negate a good majority of arrow fire, and I'd rather not spend an action repairing a hole in our outer wall since the Hundred Band can still chop through wood. With the Brick Wall, we don't even have to fight. We just outlast the enemy and let them starve.
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- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
[X] [War Debt] Recognize the labour of captives as paying their captor's debts
[X] [War Debt] Recognize Raiders as akin to Shaman
I wasn't sure which of the two I prefer. But as I was trying to decide I saw that the third option is actually winning. Why exactly are we sending random people who don't enjoy it or have a clue or the stomach for it off to war?
[X] [Wall] Build elevated platforms form which the People can fire!
While the enemy can get through wood walls, it definitely isn't easy. Stone walls risk sieges with no defense but waiting. e should at least be able to fire back first and can upgrade to stone as the enemy finds new ways to assault wood walls while under arrow fire.
Regarding the worry about enemy shields: We specialize in the use of fire and fire-altered stuff for war. We'll figure out throwing some kind of hot liquid stuff down the walls soon enough. And there's always large falling rocks (perfect for smashing shields and heads) barring that.
[X] [War Debt] Recognize Raiders as akin to Shaman
I wasn't sure which of the two I prefer. But as I was trying to decide I saw that the third option is actually winning. Why exactly are we sending random people who don't enjoy it or have a clue or the stomach for it off to war?
[X] [Wall] Build elevated platforms form which the People can fire!
While the enemy can get through wood walls, it definitely isn't easy. Stone walls risk sieges with no defense but waiting. e should at least be able to fire back first and can upgrade to stone as the enemy finds new ways to assault wood walls while under arrow fire.
Regarding the worry about enemy shields: We specialize in the use of fire and fire-altered stuff for war. We'll figure out throwing some kind of hot liquid stuff down the walls soon enough. And there's always large falling rocks (perfect for smashing shields and heads) barring that.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Because they know feeding soldiers is extremely difficult, but they don't want slavery.
LucidProp
Pocky Eating MafiaDoka
We're a Martial Culture, our people have no problems with war.
What they had problems with was killing defenseless captives.
Time and time again, the Hundred Band have shown that they can break our wooden walls and they did so on several occassions.
Rocks sufficiently large enough to break shields are hard to find, and occupy limited space that could have been used to store food or other valuables. Our enemy will be starving by the time they reach our walls, we don't even have to fight back and risk injury or death. Just let them starve against our impenetrable brick wall, and then we chase a starving, demoralized enemy after they discontinue the siege. Our people who have shown themselves to be excellent at killing everything in a rout will do what they do best after.
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- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
@Redium I have a question completely unrelated to the war. Can values degrade due to neglect? We haven't really done anything to even attempt and look for any additional wonders since we found the Crystal Lake. And that has been almost 200 years ago. In a society that doesn't do record keeping and has never seen anything like the Crystal Lake, which in turn has always been theirs.
Also, how does that value currently express itself in the daily lives of the People? Or especially the People of the Fingers?
Lastly, could you explain what the bonfires, the coin mining symbols and the bear trap on the map mean again?
Also, how does that value currently express itself in the daily lives of the People? Or especially the People of the Fingers?
Lastly, could you explain what the bonfires, the coin mining symbols and the bear trap on the map mean again?
I think we're basically looking at the following, in a sense, if we went with the elevated platforms.
Not in as coordinated a fashion, but with the Romans representing the Hundred Bands in their attempts to break through our wooden walls while we try to fight them off with our elevated platforms.
In effect, as long as they can deflect the arrows and block off any form of elevated or arrow attack - as they have been shown, proven, and demonstrated to be capable of doing - they can block our attacks, get up to our walls, and then use the same blocking method to hold off the so-called 'benefit' of our elevated attacks while they chop through our walls.
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- Location
- Canada
Maybe its best to have more then one wall defense, it allows us to fall back. An if we section them off like the Imperial city.
We could fallback and move around them so we are now attacking their flank while they are busy trying to chop down a section of walls, after all, this is more realistic setting, not like strongehold games where you got a birds eye view and a map/radar of the enemies movements this is a perfect tactic to use against primitive cultures.
We could fallback and move around them so we are now attacking their flank while they are busy trying to chop down a section of walls, after all, this is more realistic setting, not like strongehold games where you got a birds eye view and a map/radar of the enemies movements this is a perfect tactic to use against primitive cultures.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Or we could get Brick walls and watch them flail uselessly against a wall they can't chop down or burn. Then later invent layered walls.Maybe its best to have more then one wall defense, it allows us to fall back. An if we section them off like the Imperial city.
We could fallback and move around them so we are now attacking their flank while they are busy trying to chop down a section of walls, after all, this is more realistic setting, not like strongehold games where you got a birds eye view and a map/radar of the enemies movements this is a perfect tactic to use against primitive cultures.
- Location
- Canada
Or we could get brick walls and watch them scale it. Or be trap by our brick walls as they instead use our settlements hunting grounds waiting to starve us out, they dont have to win, they just have to outlast us.
LucidProp
Pocky Eating MafiaDoka
Siege technology isn't up to date yet.
Also, note how we, the people with preservatives, struggle to raid the Hundred Band due to sheer distance. Same goes for the Hundred Band, but worse. They won't find enough forage to outlast us in a siege. They'll be the ones to starve, not us. Remember, the QM did say that raiding is a negative calorie activity, if it weren't, anyone could raid indefinitely.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Yes because as History shows, as soon as walls were invented people immediately beat it by scaling it with ease.
But seriously, thats unlikely, even if they get ladders immediately its now that much harder to fight us, the layers won't help but delay them, walls of brick would force them to siege us, and since they don't have much food they will starve long before us. This is an era of walls being pretty much a war ender and logistics being to primitive to support such a conflict at that distance.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Of course, but they would have to think of it, it may be obvious for us, but we have literally thousands of years of hindsight to look at and education the likes of which these people wouldn't even be able to Fathom.
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- Location
- Canada
You have any idea how much calories you burn trying to cut down a tree? How about having to do the same for many wooden walls with little results besides causing the people some minor annoyances to repair the walls after kicking over the near death in exhaustion and starving raiders who spend three days trying to get past two palisades
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Yea, but Add brick and any effort they try is literally worthless, they won't have ladders for some time, and even if they did scaling it is Hard and puts them at a disadvantage even more so than before.
LucidProp
Pocky Eating MafiaDoka
Can you? You don't have siege weapons, you can't chop or burn down brick walls like you do wood, and you can't sap the walls by digging under them because you don't have the tech for it.
There are only 2 ways to access us, break down the gates whereupon they'll enter a prepared killzone, or our Hundred Band Debtors open the gates while no one's watching. The former is suicide, and the latter difficult and requires a level of coordination that's unlikely to be found in the era. It relies more on luck than anything else.
The final option is the feigned retreat, but there's a reason why it took the Mongols the best Command and Control and troop discipline of the era to pull that tactic off, and why their enemies fell for it almost all the damn time. The Hundred Band won't be using this anytime soon.
If we keep our walls wooden, it just delays the problem instead of solving it.
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- Location
- Canada
But with the more walls strat we can start claiming land without having to settle a region.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
What? we already do that, the area around our settlements is already claimed as ours.
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- Location
- Classified
Tally post
Ultimately, I want a brick wall, as that sounds like the hardest one to come up with. With our new value, we should be able to invent the things we don't pick here with a little effort. I just want brick wall to be up and running ASAP, before those Peace Seeker traitors and their new friends come for us.
Ultimately, I want a brick wall, as that sounds like the hardest one to come up with. With our new value, we should be able to invent the things we don't pick here with a little effort. I just want brick wall to be up and running ASAP, before those Peace Seeker traitors and their new friends come for us.
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Yep. Absolutely.
The key thing is:
-Brick Walls
--Pros: Extremely kickass right now, because theres nothing they can do against a brick wall. They aren't going to do better than try to pole vault or climb a low wall, or breach the gate until they reach Bronze Age at LEAST.
--Cons: Reduces the odds of rolling the other two defenses because they are "good enough". Mitigated by trait.
--Long term prospects: Inevitable to get soon. As soon as bricks get cheap enough to produce they'd be used for the wall regardless, because bricks are actually cheaper than logs due to not needing to be replaced.
-Firing Platforms
--Pros: It's very difficult to chop through wood while under fire, even with shields they'd be hitting logs onehanded. It gives us garrisonable walls once people figure out siege ladders, and it also unlocks watchtowers(which leads to signal towers).
--Cons: Its not nearly as perfect a defense as brick walls. A superior force, or better armor technology would allow them to assault a tower at a high cost in blood.
--Long term prospects: Many cultures simply never DID develop towers for a long time. You usually see them on plains/steppe facing cultures which are "learn to tower or die because it doesn't matter how your walls are, we got horse".
-Second Wall
--Pros: The Bailey is an outer ring of walls, and its main value lies in slowing down enemy attacks so you can get your hunters and warriors into position to fight off the enemy.
--Cons: As an active defense, if you don't HAVE the manpower to fight off the enemy it does nothing.
--Long term prospects: Odds of developing a bailey drop significantly as you convert to more logistics intensive wall types. Stone and brick walls would take significant raiding for people to WANT to build an outer ring of walls, since its expensive to produce. On the other hand we skipped masonry walls and went straight to mortared brick, so it's not so bad.
Pretty much a pick between best for immediate problem versus picking best long term opportunity. Now that we're using brick houses, the chances of staying with log perimeter walls drop dramatically. They're almost certainly going to convert within the next 3 generations once people get sick of hauling replacement logs.
The key thing is:
-Brick Walls
--Pros: Extremely kickass right now, because theres nothing they can do against a brick wall. They aren't going to do better than try to pole vault or climb a low wall, or breach the gate until they reach Bronze Age at LEAST.
--Cons: Reduces the odds of rolling the other two defenses because they are "good enough". Mitigated by trait.
--Long term prospects: Inevitable to get soon. As soon as bricks get cheap enough to produce they'd be used for the wall regardless, because bricks are actually cheaper than logs due to not needing to be replaced.
-Firing Platforms
--Pros: It's very difficult to chop through wood while under fire, even with shields they'd be hitting logs onehanded. It gives us garrisonable walls once people figure out siege ladders, and it also unlocks watchtowers(which leads to signal towers).
--Cons: Its not nearly as perfect a defense as brick walls. A superior force, or better armor technology would allow them to assault a tower at a high cost in blood.
--Long term prospects: Many cultures simply never DID develop towers for a long time. You usually see them on plains/steppe facing cultures which are "learn to tower or die because it doesn't matter how your walls are, we got horse".
-Second Wall
--Pros: The Bailey is an outer ring of walls, and its main value lies in slowing down enemy attacks so you can get your hunters and warriors into position to fight off the enemy.
--Cons: As an active defense, if you don't HAVE the manpower to fight off the enemy it does nothing.
--Long term prospects: Odds of developing a bailey drop significantly as you convert to more logistics intensive wall types. Stone and brick walls would take significant raiding for people to WANT to build an outer ring of walls, since its expensive to produce. On the other hand we skipped masonry walls and went straight to mortared brick, so it's not so bad.
Pretty much a pick between best for immediate problem versus picking best long term opportunity. Now that we're using brick houses, the chances of staying with log perimeter walls drop dramatically. They're almost certainly going to convert within the next 3 generations once people get sick of hauling replacement logs.
Those brown tiles are actually Forested Mountains. I wish they were green like all of the other forested tiles, but for whatever reason Hexmap decided to use brown for that tile set.
Another consideration is that in war having a militia will increase food expenditures. No one wants to die so they train as hard as they can during war. While the difference between 'average Joe' and 'warrior Joe' isn't very great, it's going to grow a lot as you shift more towards an agriculture economy. A militia also means that everyone needs to train for war. It's significantly more energy efficient just to have a small group train exclusively. The return on investment for 10 people burning an extra 300 calories a day is minimal compared to one person dedicated all of their time and 3,000 calories a day.
There's a reason that for most of history there was an immense pressure towards elite soldiers. The citizen-soldiers of Ancient Greece, probably what people think of when they hear about citizens armies, were actually elites. The average hoplite was a small-hold farmer with a small number of slaves to labour away on their behalf. By no means were they representative of the average, we just often forget about the immense amount of free labour in early societies.
If you're looking for low-tech slave using societies, look at the Iroquois or North American West Coast Native American tribes. Both of them participated in the slave trade to a significant degree - the latter had up to 25% of their population in bondage! That's a rate rivaled by Rome at its height.
Brick Walls are also immune to being burned down. This isn't really something that your enemies were likely to take advantage of, but the Ember-Eyes are going to put that fact to good use in any siege.
You're going to get them all eventually.
You also have wicker shields as well. You managed to copy them from the Hundred Bands. The People are capable of making wicker baskets, it's more the fact that they lacked the concept of making that into a shield before.
Values can degrade due to neglect. Most often, though, they're lost as a result of a faction Shattering. For Wonderful World specifically, the only way for you to lose it, would be to lose control of Crystal Lake and then fail to get it back.
You've continued to send out Exploration actions every turn due to your semi-nomadic nature. The issue is that they've all been terrible. I think the highest you've gotten in the last 3 turns was 52.
Wonderful World really shows itself as an abstract appreciation for nature. A big pastime for the People is to spend time contemplating nature. Any places that they've found that are awe inspiring, but not wondrous, such as waterfalls, secluded hilltop glens, etc. are common stops for the People. They're considered to be places of luck and many men visit them before leaving for war, or women when they expect to enter childbirth. There's Power in those places, the People feel. Every few years, people in the Fingers will go upriver to Crystal Lake in order to complete a pilgrimage and it's considered to be a great tragedy once an elder is too old to do so. Autumn is also important to the People and the time where the leaves fall from the trees are often filled with festivals or other celebrations.
Bonfires indicate locations that you could settle. They're places that the People sometimes find themselves stopping at transiently. Under the action description, their rough position is described so you know which one is which.
The coin/mining symbols just mean valuable mines. The one near Crystal Lake is obsidian while the one in the southern mountains along Arrow Lake is for Lapis Luzili. The Bear Trap originally signified places where you'd invested in traps, but I'm probably going to remove it. It's an obsolete marker now that you're on early agriculture. Crossed spears indicate the sites of recent battles. Leaves indicate sugar shacks. The columned temple indicates holy places. The tent icon indicates a palisade settlement, while tepees indicate unwalled settlements.
No update tonight. I got a Surprise! visit from relatives today. I'll lock the vote after work tomorrow and finish it then.