Voting is open
Maybe we should pull a Harvey Dent on this one (think opening court scene in the Dark Knight). Does it really favor us to stop talking now?
Yes, we could fire first and be safe. But, what then? The fighting and winning will be the easy part. The hard part will be gaining anything of worth from all those occupied/blockaded Lystheni worlds...

The very occupation of Lystheni worlds would be beneficial, jump-starting our capability to fight groundside on distant worlds.

[X] Shoot first, shoot often. Sucker punch the Lystheni with an all-out assault. You possess the advantage of quality. An alpha strike could easily burn half of the Lystheni's ships before they get their engines started, and secure the battle.
 
I really want to bring the Dalatrass back to Virmire and make her watch as her entire nation crumbles to dust because of her actions.
 
Should we not be prepared to evacuate the station? Even if the Alpha strike is successful, stray shots may still damage the station. Even the precaution of having every surviving person aboard shuttlecraft in the hangar facing away from the Lystheni fleet with the engine warmed up would be a good idea. If necessary, we could book it and go to FTL to leave the engagement zone.
 
[X] Shoot first, shoot often. Sucker punch the Lystheni with an all-out assault. You possess the advantage of quality. An alpha strike could easily burn half of the Lystheni's ships before they get their engines started, and secure the battle.
 
[X] Shoot first, shoot often. Sucker punch the Lystheni with an all-out assault. You possess the advantage of quality. An alpha strike could easily burn half of the Lystheni's ships before they get theirengines started, and secure the battle.
-[x] Make sure that the dalatrass is kept up to date on the progress of the war.
 
[X] Shoot first, shoot often. Sucker punch the Lystheni with an all-out assault. You possess the advantage of quality. An alpha strike could easily burn half of the Lystheni's ships before they get their engines started, and secure the battle.
 
I'm beginning to get a feel for where the lystheni came from and why they left.

They were booted out of Salarian society on account of the Dalatrass being a lethal combo of batshit and egomaniac with the years of isolation and unchecked power exaggerating the traits that got her and her people booted out of society in the first place.

They are frankly salarians that look at a stereotypical salarian and decided he doesn't have the will to go far enough.
 
[X] Shoot first, shoot often. Sucker punch the Lystheni with an all-out assault. You possess the advantage of quality. An alpha strike could easily burn half of the Lystheni's ships before they get their engines started, and secure the battle.

I assume Miracle Mira will be able to make a better plan than me.

That said I do want to spit ball a bit: tight beam to the CL that we're at war and sending the shuttle back empty, and a KK should guard it, while another trashes the Lystheni hangar while the rest of the fleet engages theirs. That should confuse the hell out of the Lystheni fleet and keep them from firing on the station for real.

While that bit of prep is going on, get people suited in EVA gear, just in case. Then make a recording to the effect that Virmire is at war due to a cowardly sneak attack

Edit, well sith, that won't work
 
Last edited:
I'm beginning to get a feel for where the lystheni came from and why they left.

They were booted out of Salarian society on account of the Dalatrass being a lethal combo of batshit and egomaniac with the years of isolation and unchecked power exaggerating the traits that got her and her people booted out of society in the first place.

They are frankly salarians that look at a stereotypical salarian and decided he doesn't have the will to go far enough.
It's pretty clear that the current generation of Lystheni are several generations removed from the original exile/refugees. The current Dalatrass isn't the woman who was leading the Lystheni when they first left salarian space.
 
It's pretty clear that the current generation of Lystheni are several generations removed from the original exile/refugees. The current Dalatrass isn't the woman who was leading the Lystheni when they first left salarian space.
Well we'll likely learn why they're so bat**** banana crazy soon...assuming they even kept records and didn't just destroy them to stop their populace from getting ideas if they ever read them...

I wouldn't put it past them.
 
The only reason I wouldn't just alpha strike them now is the possibility of taking those ships later, holding the Dalatress hostage. She is absolutely certain that holding an enemy leader would force the opposition to bow to any demands made - why don't we just declare that we have her hostage, and demand an immediate unconditional surrender? It's exactly what she was going to do to us, except presumably it would actually work on the Lystheni.

Seriously, just get on the shuttle, force the Dalatress at gunpoint to record a message of her ordering the local troops to stand down, go home and broadcast another pre-recorded message of her confirming she's still alive and ordering them to surrender. They apparently can't function without her - they have to surrender, and we don't blow up a bunch of ships that are about to become our ships.

[X] Write-in
-[X] Force the Dalatress at gunpoint to record a message of her ordering local troops to stand down as we leave, with any appropriate codes. Make a second recording of her declaring she's been captured after she attempted to betray us during negotiations, and that the Lystheni are to surrender unconditionally and comply with any orders we give.

"And now all your soldiers here are dead. "Funny, how that works out."
You've got an extra speech mark there.
 
I think it's more complicated than that.

The Lystheni almost certainly didn't come here specifically planning to take Mira hostage, or they would have done so at a time of their choosing, rather than waiting until Mira plunked down a steamrollery list of demands, then complaining about it, and then and only then trying to take us hostage.

To me, it's pretty clear that "take the Virmirean prime minister hostage" was, like, their Plan D or so. We already sunk their Plans A, B, and C by not just folding up and giving in as soon as they revealed they had other hostages, and then by making a harsh list of demands their dalatrass wasn't willing to concede.

...

What this means is that the Lystheni captains were almost certainly briefed and prepared for the scenario "we've taken the Virmirean prime minister hostage, now get us aboard the flagship and leg it!" And maybe even for the scenario "we tried to take the prime minister hostage and failed, OH CRAP!"

However, they do not know that this plan is exactly what is going on right now. As long as they don't get a clue, they'll assume negotiations are proceeding as normal until given reason to think otherwise. Once they do have a clue, they're likely to react competently(ish) and decisively (for sure).

However, this still basically supports the 'alpha strike' conclusion. If we can knock out some of their ships very quickly and put the remaining ships on the defensive, forcing them to flee or be destroyed, without leaving them reason to think the Dalatrass is dead aboard the defense platform, it is fairly likely that they will react chaotically and be easy prey, as the Dalatress expected that kidnapping Mira would do to Virmire.
Well, we certainly can't leave or they'll know something's up. Whatever their plan, it likely didn't include our ships departing the station. So we have some time but not a lot, while they're busy trying to figure out what is going on. We need to get the barriers up on this station, send our fleets in to 1) cover the station, and 2) force the Lysenthi back.
 
However much leverage your nation holds, it holds only as much as it can bring to bear, and without a leader it can do nothing.
"And even if you'd managed to take me down, what do you think would happen? We have a chain of command. Virmire wouldn't be crippled."

Ok, been thinking on this. Specifically, why does the Dalatress think that our government would be crippled if she kills us? Likely, it's not just ignorance of how our government works, it's a lack of understanding of how our government works. She thinks that our people would have to go through an election process to replace us before the Virmerian government could even function. But why would she think this? My guess is because that's how the Lystheni function. The notion of a chain of command isn't something their society understands. All authority comes from the Dalatress, and without a Dalatress nobody has authority. When the Dalatress dies, Lystheni society temporarily breaks down.

But that implies that the Dalatress doesn't have a successor. But how could that work? Clearly she's not the first Dalatress of the Lystheni. Two options I can think of...

1. She has several successor candidates, but none declared as heir. When the Dalatress dies, they go through some kind of civil conflict until one comes out on top and the others are dead.
2. There are no other Lystheni females currently alive. She is the only one, and only after her death will one be allowed to be born, or possibly cloned.

Both would match the sheer paranoia of the Lystheni, because it would mean that the Dalatress doesn't trust having successors for some reason. I'm leaning towards the second being true, because I don't think we've even seen any other female Lystheni as of yet. And it would explain so much. The Dalatress acts like a spoiled child who expects to always get her way, and if she really is a spoiled child who always got her way then she just never grew up. Furthermore, no older Dalatress alive to serve as a role model, to pass down her wisdom and experience, would mean that she's never received more than a basic education - she wasn't raised to lead, she was just handed a leadership position in spite of not being groomed for it. Hell, if there's cloning involved that might really explain a lot, because the way Salarians bond at birth might mean that a clone maintains the loyalty and obedience of her predecessor's children.
 
The only reason I wouldn't just alpha strike them now is the possibility of taking those ships later, holding the Dalatress hostage. She is absolutely certain that holding an enemy leader would force the opposition to bow to any demands made - why don't we just declare that we have her hostage, and demand an immediate unconditional surrender? It's exactly what she was going to do to us, except presumably it would actually work on the Lystheni.

Seriously, just get on the shuttle, force the Dalatress at gunpoint to record a message of her ordering the local troops to stand down, go home and broadcast another pre-recorded message of her confirming she's still alive and ordering them to surrender. They apparently can't function without her - they have to surrender, and we don't blow up a bunch of ships that are about to become our ships.
I'm not opposed to this, but consider:

She may well believe that all governments have a single cult figure they can't function without. BUT she is a salarian, and a salarian's useful adult life is only about 20-30 years. She may well have specifically taken precautions, before this very mission, to enable a stable transfer of power. I mean, it's not just that she might somehow get killed, but this mission is going to take weeks, she could have a heart attack and die or something.

BUT she would assume that we have taken no such precaution. She knows (from reading books, if nothing else) that asari are very long-lived, and may assume we have no expectation of needing a designated replacement.

In which case she could refuse us, knowing that if she dies someone else will carry on as the Maximum Leader, while still believing that if she kidnapped Mira, Virmire would be leaderless and helpless.

Ok, been thinking on this. Specifically, why does the Dalatress think that our government would be crippled if she kills us? Likely, it's not just ignorance of how our government works, it's a lack of understanding of how our government works. She thinks that our people would have to go through an election process to replace us before the Virmerian government could even function. But why would she think this? My guess is because that's how the Lystheni function. The notion of a chain of command isn't something their society understands. All authority comes from the Dalatress, and without a Dalatress nobody has authority. When the Dalatress dies, Lystheni society temporarily breaks down.
Alternatively, that's what happens by default, and exceptions occur only when the Dalatrass has specifically prepared in advance for the need to make an exception.

But that implies that the Dalatress doesn't have a successor. But how could that work? Clearly she's not the first Dalatress of the Lystheni. Two options I can think of...

1. She has several successor candidates, but none declared as heir. When the Dalatress dies, they go through some kind of civil conflict until one comes out on top and the others are dead.
Alternatively, she DOES declare an heir, but only when she believes that she is dying.

2. There are no other Lystheni females currently alive. She is the only one, and only after her death will one be allowed to be born, or possibly cloned.
The population imbalance involved here wouldn't work. Even if all living Lystheni are tank-grown beings made artificially instead of being born live from eggs of a living Lystheni mother, just imprinting ten million individual salarian males on a single Dalatrass would be effectively impossible. The Lystheni almost have to have an arrangement of 'stacked' feudal imprinting like that of the rest of the salarian species, just reproduced in miniature for their smaller population.

Both would match the sheer paranoia of the Lystheni, because it would mean that the Dalatress doesn't trust having successors for some reason. I'm leaning towards the second being true, because I don't think we've even seen any other female Lystheni as of yet
Even regular salarians tend to keep their (minority of very precious) females cloistered in positions of great security. Male salarians make up 90% of the species, so they have very little need to bring female salarians into contact with outsiders if they don't want to. So I don't think this evidence proves much.

And it would explain so much. The Dalatress acts like a spoiled child who expects to always get her way, and if she really is a spoiled child who always got her way then she just never grew up. Furthermore, no older Dalatress alive to serve as a role model, to pass down her wisdom and experience, would mean that she's never received more than a basic education - she wasn't raised to lead, she was just handed a leadership position in spite of not being groomed for it. Hell, if there's cloning involved that might really explain a lot, because the way Salarians bond at birth might mean that a clone maintains the loyalty and obedience of her predecessor's children.
I think you might be right about the Dalatrass we know being a clone, without being right about there being no other living female Lystheni.

However, I think it would be unwise of us to assume that the Dalatrass hasn't made any plans or precautions in case she dies on this mission. Or for the scenario where we, hypothetically, try to kidnap and coerce her. Again, the Lystheni are strategically stupid but tactically competent; their biggest mistakes have come from assuming we work like them. If so, they SHOULD be planning ahead for the contingency plans where we do to them exactly what they're considering doing to us.
 
[ ] Shoot first, shoot often. Sucker punch the Lystheni with an all-out assault. You possess the advantage of quality. Analpha strike could easily burn half of theLystheni's ships before they get theirengines started, and secure the battle.
 
I'm not opposed to this, but consider:

She may well believe that all governments have a single cult figure they can't function without. BUT she is a salarian, and a salarian's useful adult life is only about 20-30 years. She may well have specifically taken precautions, before this very mission, to enable a stable transfer of power. I mean, it's not just that she might somehow get killed, but this mission is going to take weeks, she could have a heart attack and die or something.

BUT she would assume that we have taken no such precaution. She knows (from reading books, if nothing else) that asari are very long-lived, and may assume we have no expectation of needing a designated replacement.

In which case she could refuse us, knowing that if she dies someone else will carry on as the Maximum Leader, while still believing that if she kidnapped Mira, Virmire would be leaderless and helpless.
We could probably just ask her. She's liable to scream and cry about her plans being so wrecked, or scream how it'll never work because she thought of that, you fools, etc. - she really doesn't seem the type to keep quiet about it, given how her attempt at diplomacy went.
 
2. There are no other Lystheni females currently alive. She is the only one, and only after her death will one be allowed to be born, or possibly cloned.
This seems unlikely. They are a society of literal millions, if she was the only female she would be to busy being barefoot and pregnant to have any actual power, if it was even possible.
 
Not often you get to see a head of state put in for a Darwin Award.

[X] Shoot first, shoot often. Sucker punch the Lystheni with an all-out assault. You possess the advantage of quality. An alpha strike could easily burn half of the Lystheni's ships before they get their engines started, and secure the battle.
Reasonable odds that the enemy ship captains knew of the planned betrayal. If they see us leaving without a signal from their boss they may well open fire.
 
How did the Lystheny spies miss that Asari are biotic? How should that 'trap' have worked?
That's like a sociology experiment where someone tried "let's look how fu we can make a society and have it still continue." ('work' would be something else. I go with 'doesn't immediately collapse')
 
We could probably just ask her. She's liable to scream and cry about her plans being so wrecked, or scream how it'll never work because she thought of that, you fools, etc. - she really doesn't seem the type to keep quiet about it, given how her attempt at diplomacy went.
I dunno. She has to be good at something, and I suspect that "keep quiet when she thinks her only hope of avoiding disaster for her society depends on it" may turn out to be that thing.

Since it certainly isn't anything else we've seen her do. :p

Salarians might lay eggs.
For all we know once every month she produces some frogspawn and a few thousand more are born.
Yes, and given that reproductive age for a single salarian probably lasts about twenty years, that translates as, oh... let's be generous and say 5000 little frog eggs, each of which is successfully cultured to maturity, per month. Multiply by 12, times 20, and you have 1.2 million salarian eggs, at most. To get to a situation where one female salarian could credibly be mother to the entire Lystheni population even under the most favorable imaginable conditions with massive biotechnical support you'd need to crank up by another order of magnitude, to something like fifty thousand eggs per month, at which point you have to ask how the salarians ever evolved to be that way.

Besides, the wiki says salarian females lay "dozens" of eggs per year, and Poptart is going with wiki canon.

I mean, it is remotely imaginable that the Dalatrass could be the literal mother of her whole society, but it is really, really pushing it.

It seems far more likely that the Lystheni just do the same thing all the other salarians do, and have a nested hierarchy of quasi-feudal 'queen bee' mother figures, bound together by family ties and negotiated agreements.

How did the Lystheny spies miss that Asari are biotic? How should that 'trap' have worked?
The Lystheni spies may not have ever actually seen a trained asari commando in combat; such commandos are not common and wouldn't be fighting on the ground on Virmire often at all. They might have seen portrayals of combat biotics in popular media on Virmire or something, but they could easily have dismissed that as propaganda or exaggeration.

I'm not saying they wouldn't know the asari were biotic at all, but they might have grossly underestimated how important that was.
 
Last edited:
Voting is open
Back
Top