White Wolf's World of Darkness

[Vito Scaletta]

I've been thinking about how the CofD books often suggest alternate settings for the various games. I'm not talking about the Dark Eras stuff or other historical settings (though those are still cool), I'm talking about all the genre-bending, "Have you considered vampires in space?" type shit. Setups that pitch the game as magic meets cyberpunk, or space opera, or post apocalyptic, etc. However, while a lot of these alternate settings look super interesting to me (some more than others), and while they show up in a lot of the books, I don't think I've ever heard about somebody actually running a game like that.

So has anyone here run/played one of the CofD games in a vastly altered setting? Not necessarily one of the ones in the books, but something really genre-busting that does away with the base assumption of "on the surface, this is the world you know" that all the games take for granted. Changelings in space, post apocalyptic werewolves, vampires with no masquerade, whatever. If so, what was your experience like? What worked and what didn't?

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I've run a few Requiem one-shots that were explicitly action-horror

They were still set modern Earth but with a dark action-oriented mentality.

I did invoke Rule Zero to make alterations to the setting and the lore. No Strix, No God-Machine or any setting elements from CofD 2E, be it for Vampire or the other gamelines (consequently, no Beast: The Primordial or Demon: The Descent) and the game has an entirely different set of themes. I'll also gladly use fangames like Princess: The Hopeful as well.

I'm not sure if that's enough to count though. Same with crossovers such as Hunter: The Vigil meets Resident Evil.

The biggest issue I had with running WoD as action horror was the fact that the combat system's janky as hell, so most combat was boiled down to essentially one-on-one duels and since these were one-shots, it wasn't as big of a deal but it could be a problem in an extended chronicle.

Edited for clarity

 

[Amazing Abzan]

Since the answer to my last question seems to have largely been "no," let me broaden it slightly in an attempt to provoke some discussion. Is there any big setting change or weird genre mashup that you want to try or that you think would work really well?

For my part, I think Mage would work well in either a post-apocalyptic or cyberpunk setting. Mage is already post-apocalyptic in some ways given the Atlantis backstory, so going all out in that regard seems like a natural step. I feel like it would play well with some of the setting and thematic elements, specifically all the stuff about hunting for lost knowledge and trying to uplift a broken world. A cyberpunk setting, on the other hand, seems like it would work really well with a Seer heavy campaign. A lot of the Seers (especially Mammon and Panopticon) already fit into the archetypes of cyberpunk villains, so I think you could get a lot of mileage out of it.

I also really like the idea of kicking off a campaign by shattering the masquerade at the beginning of the first session. Things start off with all the PCs watching a breaking news, tell-all interview with a werewolf/demon/[insert splat here] that's too high profile to silence or discredit, and the rest of the campaign is just dealing with the fallout of that. Do you help tear away the veil, talking to reporters and testifying to government officials in the hopes that you can shape the coming changes, or do you desperately try to hold on to the world you know even as it crumbles around you? I think pretty much any splat could work with this premise, but Vampire is probably the game it works best with.

 

[Rakaziel]

The ideal werewolf for that would be Children of Gaia (Old World of Darkness) - their optional tribal drawback is that they do not cause Delirium.

Or a Malkavian vampire.

Broken Masquerade plus Cyberpunk would also make a great Shadowrun style setting. Or just set it in oWoD Asia, where the Masquerade is a bit thinner to begin with.

 

[Amazing Abzan]

I can't really speak with much confidence about oWoD stuff, but at least for nWoD I don't think any of the splats need any special powers to break their own masquerade if they're dedicated to it. Some of them might have a harder time with it, sure, but even a bog standard nMage could theoretically take a news crew on a tour of the Shadow despite mages having an inbuilt weirdness censor.

Frankly, I think the premise works better if whoever blows things open is a relatively unremarkable member of their splat. It makes the focus be less on the individual vampire/werewolf/whatever that made the evening news and more about the consequences of them being on the evening news.

 

[lava beard of sorrow]

If I remember one of the Werewolf apocalypse scenarios lets you blow the masquerade wide open as a distraction for your actual mission of freeing the Wyrm so it can stop the weaver and end the world.

 

[The Laurent]

Okay, I need Mage 2e mechanical advice. How would a spell effecting anyone who views it work? I could see it being a 'range' thing, but the range is mobile. Like, to use an example that isn't it.

Let's say that for some reason a Mage is poor, but needs to go undercover as a rich person. And so, for whatever made up reason they cast a spell on their old flip-phone so that everyone who sees it sees a brand new iPhone. I was thinking Mind, but for this example it doesn't really matter. How would that mechanically be put together? Like, for the "targets=Anyone who sees it" bit.

 

[GardenerBriareus]

Okay, I need Mage 2e mechanical advice. How would a spell effecting anyone who views it work? I could see it being a 'range' thing, but the range is mobile. Like, to use an example that isn't it.

Let's say that for some reason a Mage is poor, but needs to go undercover as a rich person. And so, for whatever made up reason they cast a spell on their old flip-phone so that everyone who sees it sees a brand new iPhone. I was thinking Mind, but for this example it doesn't really matter. How would that mechanically be put together? Like, for the "targets=Anyone who sees it" bit.

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First instinct is that attaching the effect to an object would require either Prime or Space (to either incorporate the spell into the object's Pattern or to 'entangle' its Pattern with your own). Mechanically... in 1e, the example 'armor spell' for Mind worked by subtly altering the perception of anyone observing the Mage, protecting them by making enemies misjudge their location and actions by a just-barely-plausible margin. That provides a canon confirmation that such an effect is not only achievable, but so normal that it doesn't require its own spell to achieve... in 1e. My knowledge of 2e is unfortunately far less complete.

If you actually wanted to take a magical effect and give it a cognitosensitive 'trigger' (such as booby-trapping a specific place or point in time so that attempting to scry it triggers a curse targeting the voyeur, or a book that infects readers with bubonic plague when they finish the second-to-last chapter of it), then that would probably be Space + the Arcana necessary to cast the base spell, since it's not that far off from the idea of casting via sympathetic link. Sprinkle Time or Prime in as well for the more complex things, like the plague-book or the temporal trap, especially if the effect is meant to be capable of triggering repeatedly and/or Persistent.

 

[cmwatford]

Okay, I need Mage 2e mechanical advice. How would a spell effecting anyone who views it work? I could see it being a 'range' thing, but the range is mobile. Like, to use an example that isn't it.

Let's say that for some reason a Mage is poor, but needs to go undercover as a rich person. And so, for whatever made up reason they cast a spell on their old flip-phone so that everyone who sees it sees a brand new iPhone. I was thinking Mind, but for this example it doesn't really matter. How would that mechanically be put together? Like, for the "targets=Anyone who sees it" bit.

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That sounds like a simple matter veiling spell targeting the phone. A mind veiling spell might do it as well but only things with a mind will be fooled by it.

Edit: I kind of glossed over that last sentence.

In 2e spells that are triggered later on typically require Fate and Time 2 for Hung Spell and Conditional Duration. Signs of Sorcery has Basilisks which sound closer to what you want. They encode a spell on an object and auto cast it one anyone who sees it. It also requires Fate 2 tho.

Basilisk
Prerequisite: Fate ••
A basilisk is a specialized form of runic spellcasting inverting
the ability of Fate to place conditional durations on spells,
developed by the Cambridge IV. As with a rune, it begins with
describing the spell's Imago in High Speech. Unlike runic casting, the mage incorporates fragments of the description into an
image — anything from a painting to a design that she can spray
on a wall. Though it does not make it easier to cast the spell,
anyone who takes the time to examine the resulting basilisk is
affected by the spell. As such, basilisks provide a way of holding
on to a spell and using it against a number of targets even when
the mystic is not present.
Many mages bind runic Yantras into their basilisks, perfecting
the description of their Imago in written and constructed High
Speech, though it is by no means necessary. Street-mages plaster
the outside of their hideouts with basilisks designed to ward away
prying eyes. A Guardian crafts a basilisk onto a business card
and uses it to wipe the last five minutes of a witness' memory.
Effect: A basilisk Yantra allows the mage to delay the activation of a spell. She must cast the original spell with Advanced
Duration and spend a Mana, and gains two levels of Duration
for free. The first person to witness the basilisk is affected as
though the spell had a Duration of 1 turn; the basilisk remains
in place and can affect more people until it has affected the
number of subjects allowed by the spell's Scale factor. At the
end of the Duration, the spell fizzles into nothingness. The
spell cast through the basilisk counts against her active spells
until someone sees it, and basilisk casting is incompatible with
Conditional Duration.

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[Amazing Abzan]

Okay, I need Mage 2e mechanical advice. How would a spell effecting anyone who views it work? I could see it being a 'range' thing, but the range is mobile. Like, to use an example that isn't it.

Let's say that for some reason a Mage is poor, but needs to go undercover as a rich person. And so, for whatever made up reason they cast a spell on their old flip-phone so that everyone who sees it sees a brand new iPhone. I was thinking Mind, but for this example it doesn't really matter. How would that mechanically be put together? Like, for the "targets=Anyone who sees it" bit.

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I think it depends on the effect you're going for. If you're going for "make this thing look like something else," like in the example, I'd say you can't make it work automatically on "anyone who sees this." I'd construct it as a variant of the Mind spell "Imposter" (p.g. 162), giving special attention to the scale spell factor so that it's hitting everyone who could conceivably be in eyesight of the phone. It's not actually hitting everyone who can see the phone, you're basically making a big bubble of "this flip-phone looks like an iPhone." If somebody's got a telescope trained on your phone from a mile away they'll see a shitty flip-phone, but if you pump up the scale factor enough it works for all practical purposes.

I'm not quite sure how you'd go about anchoring the spell to something that isn't actually the subject (i.e. the phone). I don't know of any explicit rules to that effect, so I'd probably say it requires a point of mana, an extra reach, and an appropriate yantra that wouldn't contribute to the spellcasting roll, kind of like casting at sympathetic range. On a fluff level, you'd be scratching some runes or something onto the back of the phone to make sure that the effect follows it.

If what you're looking for instead is "curse anyone who reads this book," then yeah, that's probably some function of Hung Spell and Conditional Duration, and it sounds like @cmwatford has what you need.

 

[The Laurent]

I think it depends on the effect you're going for. If you're going for "make this thing look like something else," like in the example, I'd say you can't make it work automatically on "anyone who sees this." I'd construct it as a variant of the Mind spell "Imposter" (p.g. 162), giving special attention to the scale spell factor so that it's hitting everyone who could conceivably be in eyesight of the phone. It's not actually hitting everyone who can see the phone, you're basically making a big bubble of "this flip-phone looks like an iPhone." If somebody's got a telescope trained on your phone from a mile away they'll see a shitty flip-phone, but if you pump up the scale factor enough it works for all practical purposes.

I'm not quite sure how you'd go about anchoring the spell to something that isn't actually the subject (i.e. the phone). I don't know of any explicit rules to that effect, so I'd probably say it requires a point of mana, an extra reach, and an appropriate yantra that wouldn't contribute to the spellcasting roll, kind of like casting at sympathetic range. On a fluff level, you'd be scratching some runes or something onto the back of the phone to make sure that the effect follows it.

If what you're looking for instead is "curse anyone who reads this book," then yeah, that's probably some function of Hung Spell and Conditional Duration, and it sounds like @cmwatford has what you need.

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Yeah, my specific gripe was actually that I was looking at Imposter, but it didn't have a very Mutable Mask style, like, "Make people think one thing is one other thing, whether in the stuff version or the 'quality'" version. Imposter's actual text went hard on the idea that you're impersonating someone specific without really clarifying enough.

I mean, since you probably already know, I'm asking for my Quest.

 

[Amazing Abzan]

Yeah, my specific gripe was actually that I was looking at Imposter, but it didn't have a very Mutable Mask style, like, "Make people think one thing is one other thing, whether in the stuff version or the 'quality'" version. Imposter's actual text went hard on the idea that you're impersonating someone specific without really clarifying enough.

I mean, since you probably already know, I'm asking for my Quest.

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If you think about how the magic is actually working, it makes sense that it's hard to have a Mutable Mask equivalent with the Mind Arcanum. Unless the spell in question is Warding or Veiling, any spell of a given Arcanum is going to have as its subject something that falls under that Arcanum's purview. In other words, you can't cast a Mind spell on a cellphone unless you're Warding or Veiling it from minds, since a cellphone doesn't have a mind for the spell to target. So while Mutable Mask is only targeting the person you want to change the appearance of, a Mind equivalent needs to target everyone whose perceptions you're trying to alter.

It's actually one of the things I like about Mage and how the magic system works. You can achieve equivalent effects with all sorts of different spells from different Arcana, but some methods are going to be much more difficult and complicated than others. I consider the fact that it's difficult (but not impossible) to replicate the effects of Mutable Mask with the Mind Arcanum to be a feature rather than a bug.

 

[The Laurent]

If you think about how the magic is actually working, it makes sense that it's hard to have a Mutable Mask equivalent with the Mind Arcanum. Unless the spell in question is Warding or Veiling, any spell of a given Arcanum is going to have as its subject something that falls under that Arcanum's purview. In other words, you can't cast a Mind spell on a cellphone unless you're Warding or Veiling it from minds, since a cellphone doesn't have a mind for the spell to target. So while Mutable Mask is only targeting the person you want to change the appearance of, a Mind equivalent needs to target everyone whose perceptions you're trying to alter.

It's actually one of the things I like about Mage and how the magic system works. You can achieve equivalent effects with all sorts of different spells from different Arcana, but some methods are going to be much more difficult and complicated than others. I consider the fact that it's difficult (but not impossible) to replicate the effects of Mutable Mask with the Mind Arcanum to be a feature rather than a bug.

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Certain things seem like they should be doable with Mind, though? Like, to use an example closer to what I'm thinking of: imagine making every passerby 'view' you in their head as a different race? That seems very, like, within the bounds of influencing the way that minds interpret facts and data. And obviously considering how racist... well, a lot of stuff is, there's certainly use for stuff like that.

But yeah, it makes sense.

 

[cmwatford]

Yeah, my specific gripe was actually that I was looking at Imposter, but it didn't have a very Mutable Mask style, like, "Make people think one thing is one other thing, whether in the stuff version or the 'quality'" version. Imposter's actual text went hard on the idea that you're impersonating someone specific without really clarifying enough.

I mean, since you probably already know, I'm asking for my Quest.

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Yeah, if you just want to disguise something that's just your standard Veiling spell. Veiling covers "this thing is hidden" and "this thing is not what it appears to be". Death has the perfect example of this in Corpse Mask. That spell makes a corpse look like the person died of a cause of your choosing. One of the examples given is to make a charred corpse look like it died of a heart attack.

Edit: Just looked up Imposter and I do not understand why this is Weaving. At my table this would be a Veiling effect and be something you cast on yourself.

 

[Amazing Abzan]

Yeah, if you just want to disguise something that's just your standard Veiling spell. Veiling covers "this thing is hidden" and "this thing is not what it appears to be". Death has the perfect example of this in Corpse Mask. That spell makes a corpse look like the person died of a cause of your choosing. One of the examples given is to make a charred corpse look like it died of a heart attack.

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Veiling is weird in that it covers both "hiding things in this Arcanum's purview" and "hiding things FROM things in this Arcanum's purview." Corpse Mask is an example of the first, whereas Incognito Presence is an example of the second. From the examples in the book, I'd say you get a lot more leeway when doing the first thing, but the second just tends towards varying shades of invisibility and "don't notice this."

So Corpse Mask lets you disguise a cause of death as a different cause of death as a Veiling practice of Death, because both corpses as and causes of death are "Death Arcanum things." If you were to use a Veiling practice of Mind, though, you wouldn't be able to achieve the same thing. You could hide the corpse from anyone (with a mind) looking for it, but you couldn't disguise it as a different corpse.

I'm admittedly reading into things a bit here and I'd understand if someone ran their game differently, but that's my take on things going by what's demonstrated in the core book. It also makes the Arcana more distinct and individually useful, so there's incentive to be able to Veil with multiple different Arcana.

Certain things seem like they should be doable with Mind, though? Like, to use an example closer to what I'm thinking of: imagine making every passerby 'view' you in their head as a different race? That seems very, like, within the bounds of influencing the way that minds interpret facts and data. And obviously considering how racist... well, a lot of stuff is, there's certainly use for stuff like that.

But yeah, it makes sense.

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Well, if you buy into the view I detailed above, then I'd say you could veil certain aspects of your physical appearance as a Veiling practice of Mind, but you couldn't overwrite them. So "don't notice my race" or "don't notice my gender" would be valid as Veiling Mind spells with yourself as the target, but "see me as white" or "see me as a woman" wouldn't. However, if you're in a society that views whiteness as default (i.e. in America), then "don't notice my race" and "see me as white" probably look very similar in practice.

Not to say that you can't get "see me as a woman" as a Mind effect, but I think it's too specific to be a Veiling practice of Mind when it's not targeting a mind. You'd need to target the people seeing you with a Weaving spell, rather than targeting yourself with a Veiling spell.

 

[Konradleijon]

Hi

Could I have some comments on this Beast character I made? How does he appear, is it too creepy, these sort of things.

Thanks in advance.

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holy shit that's creepy, having children punished because they "betray" their abusive parents is terrifying.

 

[ganonso]

holy shit that's creepy, having children punished because they "betray" their abusive parents is terrifying.

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Which is why the character would never do it. The Horror doesn't care in which way the order of family is broken but the human half of the equation very much do and consciously choose to punish abusers rather than their victims.

From what I remember the character was judged too creepy more because the "And as you are irredemable let's toss you in the Hedge and see what happens" than his choice of prey.

I actually used it as a NPC in several scenarios across different groups. For the moment PC's response are 60/40 "his victims are unrepentant scum anyway". The rest is mainly motivated by how horrific the Durance is and how nobody ever deserves that but generally has no problem with "monster who punishes child abuse with suffering and death".

 

[Konradleijon]

Anyone her like Beast the primdol! I adored everything about the first draft but Heros. So I think it'll be better if we gut heros from the game. Or say their morally justified in hunting beasts because beasts are literal nightmares. People atleast seem to like Heros more then Beasts for some reason.

 

[cmwatford]

Beast is pretty fun. Lots of cool things you can do with it.

 

[Imrix]

The general consensus on Beast around here, at least when it came out, was that it's almost entirely hot garbage.

 

[Amazing Abzan]

Anyone her like Beast the primdol! I adored everything about the first draft but Heros. So I think it'll be better if we gut heros from the game. Or say their morally justified in hunting beasts because beasts are literal nightmares. People atleast seem to like Heros more then Beasts for some reasonable

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I'll admit I don't own any Beast books, but from what I've read I don't think I want to. I've heard the line does some really uncomfortable stuff thematically with glorifying abuse and abusers, which is doubly skeevy considering what's come out about the lead author of the core book. Also, on a more practical note, I can't really figure out what you'd do in a Beast game aside from just feeding and fighting Heroes. All the other splats seem to have much more obvious plot hooks and more complex worldbuilding to work with.

I do think Beasts could serve as decent antagonists for other splats, but that's not really enough justification for me to buy any of the books.

 

[Amidatelion]

I have read all Beast material with exception of the infamously bad kickstarter manuscript, and my personal opinion is that the more time passed since the corebook the better the line got - with a few exceptions, isn't that right Null Snyper - though I still don't really like it. This is probably a result of the idea and writing processes getting cleared up over time and the sacking of a certain sex offender, as I am told the dev cycle for Beast was an unorganized mess.

The self-righteous streak in Beast was heavily toned down to address the moral issues of being one of the Begotten and that yes actually hurting people is bad no matter what kind of "lesson" you're trying to teach them. Special prize for Hunger in the Black Land showing us how the Beasts created their main damn problem by dint of being psychopathic animals with no self-control. There was also some attempt to solve the "OK but what do they actually do" problem by introducing more elements to beast culture and even a more "direct" enemy type in the form of the unsatiables.

At the same time a lot of their core writing and mechanics are incredibly borked, the inclusion of family feeding was always a terrible idea, heroes are still written kinda psychotically, and insatiables are stupid and make no sense, and it's not the good kind of nonsense.

I dunno there's just some kind of disconnect between the concept of "be a monster of legend incarnate" and "your main gameplay loop is to go around being an asshole to people in oddly petty and mundane ways until you can permanently traumatize them."

 

[Konradleijon]

The first draft didn't have the teach through fear shit, Beast didn't have any cultural hang up about teaching lessons they just existed, feed, amd if they wanted grow their brand tell they lose humanity.

 

[SinisterPorpoise]

Also, on a more practical note, I can't really figure out what you'd do in a Beast game aside from just feeding and fighting Heroes.
All the other splats seem to have much more obvious plot hooks and more complex worldbuilding to work with.

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The latter answers the former I think, Beasts are encouraged to interact with other splats.

 

[Amazing Abzan]

The latter answers the former I think, Beasts are encouraged to interact with other splats.

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That does very little to sell me on Beast though, because if much of the engagement is supposed to come from other splats, why not just play those splats instead? If I want a game with vampires and werewolves or whatever, there are already dedicated games for that. I don't really see what Beast adds to the experience.

 

[Amidatelion]

That does very little to sell me on Beast though, because if much of the engagement is supposed to come from other splats, why not just play those splats instead?

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Essentially, this. Sure, Beast is torturously contorting itself into a crossover-friendly shape, but to what end? Even the parts of the books that specifically address crossover material fail to really cover this in terms besides simple mutual benefit or antagonism.

The entire cycle of being a Beast is to go around feeding by traumatizing people, occasionally having to eliminate a hero or insatiable that got in the way of your meal, and sometimes you invite your cousin the Vampire to go bowling, or something. It lacks any meaningful sense of goal or narrative progression, imho. It loses in this aspect even to Deviant, which is the most loose and undefined of the splats because the main pitch for Deviant (unstable superhumans on the run from shady conspiracy) is a lot more conducive to meaningful story.