So what you're saying is that you can find arcane knowledge in the Tom Clancy books, by reading them as a metaphor for mage society?

Someone make this a plot idea.

We can therefore conclude that Russian ultranationalists are a metaphor for the pernicious influence of the General, Exarch of Forces, and the Unity, Exarch of Mind, upon the local Seer power structures, driving them into conflict for no real good reason.
 
I think that part that continually confuses me is the continuous portrayal of the Seers as a single unified organization in contact with one another, since the Seer Ministries are barely referenced outside their own book, while the Diamond are repeatedly demonstrated as independent factions that are bound by a shared ideology.

I guess the best way to look it is the Seers have the infrastructure to communicate between cells but inter department bickering and backstabbing prevents them from taking full advantage of it, while the Diamond lack that infrastructure but in comparison get along better with each other, but I can't help but get the feeling I'm completely off base with that.

In comparison, of course, Mages as a rule I find don't necessarily play well with others. :V
 
I think that part that continually confuses me is the continuous portrayal of the Seers as a single unified organization in contact with one another, since the Seer Ministries are barely referenced outside their own book, while the Diamond are repeatedly demonstrated as independent factions that are bound by a shared ideology.

Yeah, I just assume that the Diamond also looks unified from the outside, right until you look more closely. And that the Seer backstabbing is just a bit more obfuscated than the Diamond backstabbing.

I then laugh at the people who decided that mages, who have casual access to "lol what is distance" Space magic, should have city-scale organisations as the default. And then scale Consilia up to national/regional scales - there is one Consilium of the United Kingdom (even if quite a few people would like those London-based jackasses to fuck off) and most European nations, there are a few for the US (the Consilium of California makes very cutting remarks about the 'Flyover States Consilium') so they're actually large enough to fill all the roles in Sanctum and Sigil.
 
Amusingly I did a Greater and Lesser Consilia concept of my own where the Greater Consilia get together to decide the policy of the state or region of the country and the Lesser Consilia are the citywide governments that each implement them in their own vision, which can lead to a bit of confusion when two Allied Lesser Consilia visit each other and wonder the fuck the other is doing. :V

Also this does lead into the question of how Cabals fit into the power structure since they're portrayed as being organizations themselves, but I assume they're similar to political parties.

Edit: Also, a part of me admits some sort of devilish glee at picturing the Diamond and Seers as not taking the Banishers particularly seriously, treating them as extremely loathsome annoyances but nothing worth any real attention... up until a Banisher kills that big time player in the Diamon/Seer politic structure and sends the entire system into upheaval.
 
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Also this does lead into the question of how Cabals fit into the power structure since they're portrayed as being organizations themselves, but I assume they're similar to political parties.

Cabals are just low-level alliances between individual nations. Like, at this level, the metaphor is less important, because when it comes down to it a cabal is your friends who you hang around with and who have your back. But the cabal only has power as long as the members play along, and a tight knit cabal can use its influence as a block.
 
Now I need to figure out an actual campaign that fits Mage. Up until now I've basically been following the purview of 'Dude, it's Mage, you kind of have a blank check to throw whatever the fuck at them and you can explain it somehow', but now I think it's time to knuckle down and actually try and run a legit fucking game.
 
I then laugh at the people who decided that mages, who have casual access to "lol what is distance" Space magic, should have city-scale organisations as the default. And then scale Consilia up to national/regional scales - there is one Consilium of the United Kingdom (even if quite a few people would like those London-based jackasses to fuck off) and most European nations, there are a few for the US (the Consilium of California makes very cutting remarks about the 'Flyover States Consilium') so they're actually large enough to fill all the roles in Sanctum and Sigil.

I'd consider it likely that the Consiliums in Europe (and elsewhere) are various outgrowths of ethnolinguistic divisions mixed with hilarious amounts of grandfathered reasons. So you might not have separate Austrian and German Consiliums, and instead just have one German-language Consilium, which includes the Benelux are because they were once part of the Consortium that piggybacked on the Holy Roman Empire. Of course, it's equally likely that lower Belgium is part of a French-language Consilium, which also comprises some Russian cabals.
 
In 2e, a Consilium is what springs up around a capitol-M Mystery. Mages are attracted to Mysteries like flies to sugar, so, to use ES's analogy, there was never a Congress of Pacifica, where everybody is way the hell away from each other. There have been Congresses of Europe, where everyone is far too close to each other and everyone wants the same stuff. So, while a Consilium is likely to be city-scale, Caucuses are regional-scale. Multi-Order issues that are larger than Consilium scale are usually handled by calling for a Convocation.

In short:
Caucus: Order-specific regional grouping.
Consilium: Local-scale Diamond organization. Only found where mages are located in large numbers, which pretty much means that there is a Mystery (or Mysteries) at the heart of every Consilium.
Cabal: Small group of mages, allied together for mutual resources and protection.
Convocation: Regional, continental, or even global meeting of mages from multiple Orders. NOT a standing organization, called in response to specific issues.
 
Yeah, I was originally pretty okay with the FC, if not exactly enthusiastic about them, but a combination of the people in this thread voicing their rather valid complaints about how the Order basically tries to make itself distinct by make the other Orders less unique by comparison, which I hate, and the fact that my Libertine player is sometimes just this far from being a fishmalk (and he's an Acanthus, so he's very good at either avoiding consequences through Fate fuckery or going "lol, Shifting Sands, what do you mean I called the Guardian Interfector Skeletor Poser to his face" :V)

I have to disagree on the Awakening 2e making the Anarchs. They aren't "punk" enough to be Masquerade Anarchs. To me is seems more like they are trying to make the Traditions, what with being the "totally diverse, old world shamans hanging out with technomages and being totally cool with it". Which is funny, considering that 1e they were supposed to be a Technocracy shout-out.
 
or going "lol, Shifting Sands, what do you mean I called the Guardian Interfector Skeletor Poser to his face"

It's at that moment that you discover the Interfector runs a Mind 2, Time 2 shield that protects his mind from changes to the timeline so people can't use Time 3 to try to probe him for info and then undo it if he notices they're trying to read his mind.

Oh, of course, he won't let on. But he'll remember. And the Guardians will know. And they'll remember. And they'll start using similar Time-Mind shields around him. And one time when he goes too far, he'll suddenly find himself up in front of the Consilium facing multiple counts of disdain for the Mysteries and abuse of vulgar magic. And they may well have evidence of other such abuses, and other people will know he's doing it because Time 3 rewinding is blatantly obvious to Time 1 mage sight.
 
Now, I'm sure that this is obvious to anyone, but having rolled several more fights, I am starting to think that Nwod dice rolls are some sort of 'crazy, wild dice' when it comes to combat. Someone with two dice sometimes comes up with 5 successes on an attack and you're like, "Well, how did that happen?" It's somewhat amusing, though also slightly distressing! Or the inverse, someone rolling 10 dice getting no successes.

Not complaining that much, I can make things work, but it is something I've noticed.
 
Question about oWoD Mage: how does reality being a consensus work when the consensus is that reality isn't a consensus? Are there just some things that the consensus can't change?
 
Question about oWoD Mage: how does reality being a consensus work when the consensus is that reality isn't a consensus? Are there just some things that the consensus can't change?

Canonically yes, they actually mention constants in the Core, though some of the Apocalypse scenarios treat it otherwise. The setting wouldn't make sense otherwise, as the universe is an animistic place with a spirit world that has only a little in common with anyone's idea of what the spirit world should be.
 
Now, I'm sure that this is obvious to anyone, but having rolled several more fights, I am starting to think that Nwod dice rolls are some sort of 'crazy, wild dice' when it comes to combat. Someone with two dice sometimes comes up with 5 successes on an attack and you're like, "Well, how did that happen?" It's somewhat amusing, though also slightly distressing! Or the inverse, someone rolling 10 dice getting no successes.

Not complaining that much, I can make things work, but it is something I've noticed.

That's supposed to be a feature. Remember the game is designed to handle two hobos stabbing each other with homemade shivs in dark alleys. You are supposed to be afraid to go into combat with anyone because even that arthritic grandmother may get a lucky shot off and be worried that if you clock a guard in the back of the head you may cause him to fall wrong and crack his neck or develop a hemotoma in the brain.

Whether it works? Ehhhh....
 
Canonically yes, they actually mention constants in the Core, though some of the Apocalypse scenarios treat it otherwise. The setting wouldn't make sense otherwise, as the universe is an animistic place with a spirit world that has only a little in common with anyone's idea of what the spirit world should be.

Except the spirit world literally exists only in regions where consensus hasn't spread yet. The universe is only animistic because the materialist viewpoint is exceptionally young and Consensus is explicitly acausal-otherwise, if someone went back in time and shot Hitler, they wouldn't be taking nearly that much paradox because shooting Hitler costs no paradox and the only vulgar magic done was time travel.

And maybe not even that. Moreover, there's no real objective proof of the universe being 'animistic'-the only 'proof' of that is that you have the Spirit sphere, which in its net effects does... nothing that you can't do without the Spirit sphere. The supernaturals which exist openly and don't require mystic rituals to even come into existence are very similar to pop-culture vampires, werewolves, and whatnot.

And as the Void Engineers imply, "creating" something and "discovering" it are really not that different in oMage.
 
if someone went back in time and shot Hitler, they wouldn't be taking nearly that much paradox because shooting Hitler costs no paradox and the only vulgar magic done was time travel.

And maybe not even that. Moreover, there's no real objective proof of the universe being 'animistic'-the only 'proof' of that is that you have the Spirit sphere, which in its net effects does... nothing that you can't do without the Spirit sphere.
Isn't there a Spirit called "Tick" or "Tock" or something like that that slaughters you with Sphere10 effects if you do big Time-Travel stuff like that?
 
Isn't there a Spirit called "Tick" or "Tock" or something like that that slaughters you with Sphere 10 effects if you do big Time-Travel stuff like that?

Wrinkle is the only named paradox spirit that deals with Time that I know of, and I don't remember anything about tossing around Sphere 10 effects (which are unquantified as far as I am aware). He just prevents you from being born.
 
Ok so on the top of my head

The tribes are reorganized on "what do you hunt" and the auspices on "how do you hunt?" That means they are less bland than in 1e by far and there is no longer redundancy problems with Auspice/Tribe

Blood Talons hunt werewolves
Iron Masters hunt humans
Bone Shadows hunt spirits
Hunter in Darkness hunt Hosts
Storm Lords hunt Claimed (I may confuse the last two)

The focus is more on the Hunt than protecting your territory and declaring the Sacred Hunt on someone or something gives your pack benefits based on tribe and auspice.

No more ghost children

The gift system has changed but I will let someone with more mechanical experience says how.
 
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Alright, so Gifts.

There are now three kinds of Gifts: Auspice, Shadow and Wolf. Your Auspice gift is granted for free by your Auspice, while Wolf Gifts grow naturally and Shadow Gifts require you to pact with spirits to unlock them.

Auspice Gifts are the same 1 to 5 dot run that you're used to. Wolf and Shadow Gifts however, are actually a collection of Facets; each one tied to a different Renown, and each roughly equivalent in power to a 1e 3-dot gift. You can't grab a Facet affiliated with a Renown you have no dots in, and gaining Renown unlocks a free Facet affiliated with that Renown. If that Renown also happens to be your Auspice Renown, then you also increase your Auspice Gift. For example, if an Irraka gains Cunning 3, not only does she unlock the 3rd dot of New Moon Gifts, but she also unlocks one free Cunning Facet of another Wolf or Shadow Gift she currently possesses. If she has the Cunning Facets of all her currently unlocked Gifts, then the credit is held until she unlocks a new Gift. `
 
The focus of the game has primarily shifted from being spirit cops to spirit predators. With each major group hunting a different thing to keep everything in balance, and auspice defining how you hunt your prey.

In addition, morality has shifted from a straight up and down ladder. Now it's a seesaw, with each end representing an extreme towards the physical or spiritual. If you fall too far up, you're too aligned with the physical world, and as a result can suffer penalties to anything spiritual, including but not limited to an inability to cross the gauntlet out of the physical world.

If on the other hand, you drop too far down, you end up becoming more and more spirit like. Up to and including gaining bans and being trapped in the shadow.
 
So, the grand metaphor for Awakened society isn't feudalism like Vampire or gangs like Werewolf, or even communal storytelling like Changeling.

Being Mage, it's academia.

The Orders are the different subjects. Caucuses are different departments for the same subject, spread across different Universities. Consilia are the individual Universities' Dean, admin, and Research Ethics Board. Convocations are academic conferences. Legacies are the contributors to peer-review journals.

Everyone tries to poach one another's promising students, every high-up mage is competing not with the other mages in his own Consilium, but rival experts in the same Mysteries all over the world. Everyone tries to go to Convocations in interesting places, and everyone wants tenure.

Combine that with the common-law aftereffects of mages being walking lethal weapons who need means of settling conflicts non-violently (Consilium resembles nothing so much as a small claims court) and you have the essence of it.

On the Seers: The Iron Pyramid is, indeed, much more organized than the Pentacle for a variety of reasons. The political structures the Silver Ladder invented for the Diamond (that the Free Council grudgingly buy into) are based on individual mages being free to do whatever the hell they like as long as they don't conflict with another mage. Convocations are the closest thing the Pentacle has to a government, but even then if a Convocation decides, for example, that a Legacy is Left-Handed, it's up to the individual Consilia whose members attended to ratify that. Or not. The caucuses (individual slices of the Diamond Orders) have command structures, but the Pentacle stop there; the Guardian Epopt of San Fransisco is, as far as his subordinate Guardians are concerned, the head of that Order. The Guardian Epopt of Vegas runs her caucus differently, but when something crosses between their territories the two Epopts deal with one another as equals, and there's no "supreme Epopt" anywhere they can look to for advice.

Seer Ministries are like the Orders for Pentacle mages, but have one "caucus" for the entire world each - every Praetorian Seer ultimately does report to the Minister of the General, even if he will never meet her. The Seers have no Consilium equivalent, as when Pylons clash they do so at the command of their superiors so there's nothing to adjudicate. Where the Pentacle have Convocations any Pentacle mage can attend, local direction for the Seers is run by Tetrarchies, which are essentially very high-ranking Pylons made up of the chief member of each Ministry in a vast region. A Seer toward the bottom of the Seer Status rankings has a lot more certainty than his Pentacle cousin, and is given orders by whichever higher-up Seer has his leash. (And, if he's a Prelate, by the Exarchs themselves - where it gets really backstabby is when the Exarchs tell one Seer to do one thing and another something at odds with it) . But he can't *participate* in his Order's decisions the way a Pentacle mage can, until he becomes important enough to call the shots.
 
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