I'm an M20 backer, meaning I got a PDF copy several months ago and despite being nearly 700 pages there's plenty they had to cut out. Hell they had several stretch goals to put the cut material in a companion book, each goal expanding the size of it.

And MtAs isn't the same beast as VtM or WtA, not by a long shot. It needs a lot of those 700 pages.

The really interesting thing about M20 is that it really doesn't seem to need a lot of the wordcount. The rotes section is a particularly onerous offender.

Like, for example, their "Little Black Box" rote could be cut down to this:

Little Black Box: Like a hacker in an action movie, the mage pulls out a high-tech device of some sort and plugs it into a security system, allowing her to hack even systems she shouldn't be able to. The mage must still mundanely hack the system. Forces 2 allows the mage to manipulate electronic systems, while Mind 2 allows the mage to understand the results of her manipulation and Correspondence 2 allows her to do it at a distance.

This is 76 words. In contrast, the writeup in M20 is 199 words, and in fact tells you less-it doesn't tell you why you need the Forces, or the Mind, or the Correspondence-which means it's not useful for a player who's likely going to be doing freeform stuff. In fact, I'd pare it down even further and remove the description of how a mage does it, and go with just a short "the mage remotely hacks a electronic device," making a lot of the effects paradigm-agnostic. Players should be able to, through the examples of play, realize that they should be able to find an explanation of how the character hacks it.

I've found that overreliance on the paradigmic elements is a pretty common thing in new Mage players who don't realize that they can just bullshit the paradigm as long as they have a clear idea of what the paradigm is and what the effect they want to do is.

And then you have the one literal page taken up by the vampiric lawnchair rote, which could have gone to several useful effects. My rule of thumb would have been:

1. Emphasis on low-dot effects, like the incredibly useful 1-dot "I reduce the difficulty of my actions" effects that often set an experienced mage player apart from a newbie. Conversely a lot of the 4 and 5 dot effects are very self explanatory and straightforward because they give you a lot more apparent room for bullshit.

2. Paradigm-agnostic. If you need examples of how things might be executed in varying paradigms, make a list in the end of some of the more interesting and space-efficient methods.

3. Minimal fluff text, because (2)

4. A clear explanation of exactly what every sphere does in the effect, which is often, but not always, given.

oMage is a game of improvisational magic where player skill is hugely relevant-the magic section in this case shouldn't be considered a grab bag of random effects, as M20 treats it. It should be considered the tutorial.
 
Last edited:
oMage is a game of improvisational magic where player skill is hugely relevant-the magic section in this case shouldn't be considered a grab bag of random effects, as M20 treats it. It should be considered the tutorial.

Which is one of the way that Awakening is vastly, vastly better at teaching you to use the magic system. The Practices are a much more user-friendly system for determining the power of an effect (and the worst bits of Awakening's magic system are the bits where they break the Practices out of a misguided attempt at balancing things - as if radiation is somehow more dangerous than fire, when both of them have the same fundamental mechanic operating behind them of successes = damage).

And the end result of this is by the end of it, you've had it hammered into you that if you want to protect something from something in a particular Arcana's sphere of influence, it's a 2-dot effect (Practice of Shielding). I want to stop someone interfering with my sense of direction so I get lost? Space 2. I want to protect myself from poisonous gas? Matter 2 or Life 2, depending on how I'm doing it. I want to stop a ghost from making me feel depressed? Death 2 or Mind 2.

(In practice, I really do just use the Practices system when playing Ascension, because it's a much more useful mental tool for telling me what I can do. Because when I know what I can do, that makes it much easier to getting down to the important bit, which is to say, justifying how the NWO paradigm can basically do everything coincidentally - suck on this, wizards)
 
Which is one of the way that Awakening is vastly, vastly better at teaching you to use the magic system. The Practices are a much more user-friendly system for determining the power of an effect (and the worst bits of Awakening's magic system are the bits where they break the Practices out of a misguided attempt at balancing things - as if radiation is somehow more dangerous than fire, when both of them have the same fundamental mechanic operating behind them of successes = damage).

If I get around to running a Mage game, then, should I ignore the bits where they break the practices like that? I definitely agree with you on "no radiation till Forces 5" being silly, especially the justification they used to make it an Unmaking practice rather than a Making one. But should I keep to the "things Sleepers consider precious/valuable are harder to make" rule for Matter, or just drop it while making all matter transfigurations a Matter 4 spell.

Also, where's the line between well-disguised vulgar magic and covert magic? Waving your hand to turn water into hydrogen peroxide would obviously be vulgar, but what if you did the magic while performing what plausibly passed as chemistry to an untrained observer? What if you actually did have a fully equipped chem lab and you used a Matter 4 Patterning effect solely to speed up the process or substitute for a catalyst you were missing?
 
Also, where's the line between well-disguised vulgar magic and covert magic? Waving your hand to turn water into hydrogen peroxide would obviously be vulgar, but what if you did the magic while performing what plausibly passed as chemistry to an untrained observer?

In nMage, it's still Vulgar. Observers make Paradox worse if you're using a Vulgar effect, but whether an effect is Vulgar or not is determined by the rules, not the beliefs of potential observers. Thankfully. Ascension is a nightmare in that regard.
 
But should I keep to the "things Sleepers consider precious/valuable are harder to make" rule for Matter, or just drop it while making all matter transfigurations a Matter 4 spell.
I utterly despise that rule, and ignore it at every opportunity. It makes perfect sense for Ascension, and no sense whatsoever for Awakening, which seems to imply it is a holdover that someone added for "balance". I rule I use instead is to allow Matter 4 for stable stuff, and Matter 5 for radioactive materials, based on the argument that radiation requires at least Fraying, and more likely Unraveling. The only reason I can think of to have that rule is for Resources balance, but let's be honest here, a Sphere 4 Mage generally doesn't have much problem with money, and selling vast amounts of gold/platinum/whatever isn't easy.
 
Yeah, all such practice warpings are gone in Awakening 2e. Spells are the dot level their Practice should be at.

In some cases, this leads to interesting things - Postcognition is an Unveiling spell, so it's Time 1. But you don't get the ability to use temporal sympathy until Time 2. So what does it do when you don't use the Attainment?

Stuff like that.

But "+1 Life dots to affect mammals, +2 to affect people", "can't manipulate precious materials until Matter 4" and suchlike. All gone. There's a few places where mages are therefore weaker than they were in fist ed - no Transmute Air for beginning Moros, as it's clearly Patterning - but for the most part, you get spell effects earlier than you used to.
 
In nMage, it's still Vulgar. Observers make Paradox worse if you're using a Vulgar effect, but whether an effect is Vulgar or not is determined by the rules, not the beliefs of potential observers. Thankfully. Ascension is a nightmare in that regard.

So basically, it's covert as long as it's something that's possible, albeit improbable? I guess I'm just confused because one of the examples of covert magic given in the book is "After the mage examines an injury, it's clear to all that it isn't nearly as bad as it first appeared.In fact, the mage used a "Healing Heart"Life spell to help undo the damage," which seems to me to be a case of the mage using magic to do something impossible, but covering it up well enough and having it count as coincidental.
 
So basically, it's covert as long as it's something that's possible, albeit improbable? I guess I'm just confused because one of the examples of covert magic given in the book is "After the mage examines an injury, it's clear to all that it isn't nearly as bad as it first appeared.In fact, the mage used a "Healing Heart"Life spell to help undo the damage," which seems to me to be a case of the mage using magic to do something impossible, but covering it up well enough and having it count as coincidental.

"coincidental" is an Ascension term. Awakening uses "subtle" and "vulgar", where the distinction is (Watsonian) "the tapestry is less disturbed by Subtle than Vulgar effects", and (Doylist) "the rules say which effects are Vulgar". All magic is "impossible" (by the static rules of the Fallen World), but only some of it causes the Fallen World to violently reassert its rules.
 
You can still get them. Claws of the Unholy. Requires Protean 4, turns your talons into +0A weapons during Frenzy.
I meant readily usable. It's no good if I have to frenzy.
If I need to start going nuts just to do some aggravated damage, I might as well have just prepared an elaborate trap and skedaddled while you were either dying or distracted.

Much easier, and no actual risk of dying in melee combat with some nasty werewolf who gets a bite in (aggravated damage bites as for 2nd) or a fey who's decided that tonight they're going to contemplate fire (Armor of the Elements Fury: Fire. Ouch, no thanks, here have some fluorine gas.)
 
"coincidental" is an Ascension term. Awakening uses "subtle" and "vulgar", where the distinction is (Watsonian) "the tapestry is less disturbed by Subtle than Vulgar effects", and (Doylist) "the rules say which effects are Vulgar". All magic is "impossible" (by the static rules of the Fallen World), but only some of it causes the Fallen World to violently reassert its rules.

What I'm trying to figure out, though, is how to determine if a given spell is Vulgar or Subtle - I can see which spells are vulgar and which spells are subtle in the example spells given, but not the pattern to determine which is which. It doesn't seem to be based on which practice is used - an Unmaking spell used to destroy Mana or Tass is covert, while one used to devour a ghost's corpus is vulgar. It's not based on results - using Matter to weaken an object is covert, while using Death to make it said object corrode or rust is vulgar. In some cases, even blatantly magical effects count as covert (albeit probably improbable) - Shape Water, Self Healing and Healing Heart, Control Heat/Light/Sound, and so on.
 
What I'm trying to figure out, though, is how to determine if a given spell is Vulgar or Subtle - I can see which spells are vulgar and which spells are subtle in the example spells given, but not the pattern to determine which is which. It doesn't seem to be based on which practice is used - an Unmaking spell used to destroy Mana or Tass is covert, while one used to devour a ghost's corpus is vulgar. It's not based on results - using Matter to weaken an object is covert, while using Death to make it said object corrode or rust is vulgar. In some cases, even blatantly magical effects count as covert (albeit probably improbable) - Shape Water, Self Healing and Healing Heart, Control Heat/Light/Sound, and so on.

Self Healing and Healing Heart, I know, are covert mostly because the game makers decided (rightfully, I'd bet) that they needed a method of healing that didn't make Paradox sit up and make the players its bitch. So, healing is covert in that respect because of that, rather than, necessarily, a set rule. I'm pretty sure it even admits that in the book itself, or some book, at some point.
 
It's in Tome of Mysteries, the Spell Design section, where the books outright says that things like Healing Heart and the more blatant Armor spells are covert mostly because of game balance, although it does mention that it's something found wierd even in-universe.
 
What I'm trying to figure out, though, is how to determine if a given spell is Vulgar or Subtle - I can see which spells are vulgar and which spells are subtle in the example spells given, but not the pattern to determine which is which. It doesn't seem to be based on which practice is used - an Unmaking spell used to destroy Mana or Tass is covert, while one used to devour a ghost's corpus is vulgar. It's not based on results - using Matter to weaken an object is covert, while using Death to make it said object corrode or rust is vulgar. In some cases, even blatantly magical effects count as covert (albeit probably improbable) - Shape Water, Self Healing and Healing Heart, Control Heat/Light/Sound, and so on.
My understanding of the issue in first edition is that if it's not an example spell you just go with what feels right for your game. The only real rhyme or reason to it was a somewhat heavy handed attempt at balance.
Edit: And ninja'd.
 
Technically speaking, vulgar is any spell that could be witnessed or perceived entirely by Fallen Means. That is, means accessible to vanilla mortals without access to another supernatural line. Devouring a ghost? Certain psychics can see/perceive that. Destroying Mana? No one but Mages can perceive that (at least when Mage 1st was really under full development).

This is, of course, not so for some weird outliers (as mentioned in above posts) that are covert for balance reasons.
 
Given the incredibly massive change between Ascension and Awakening I feel that the subtle/vulgar difference was a piece of legacy code that really had no purpose being in nWoD. If you wanted reason to not have your Mages running around like D&D or Dresden Files wizards all kersploding everything and turning people into newts than that should have been written right into the rules of magic instead of being permitted and then punished via methods that require a massive amount of ST interpretation.

Like, Mages are at their best when they are doing subtle, sneaky magic that plays tricks of probability and coincidence and stuff like that anyway, and the game obviously wants to encourage that mechanically... so I don't see why you bother with allowing "Throw a Fireball Down Main Street" or "Turn The President Into A Hamster" as even valid spells at all.

Either be a game about urban wizards who use knowledge and skill to con reality, or be a game about Tim The Enchanter but don't try to be both, it just leads to broken rules.
 
Given the incredibly massive change between Ascension and Awakening I feel that the subtle/vulgar difference was a piece of legacy code that really had no purpose being in nWoD. If you wanted reason to not have your Mages running around like D&D or Dresden Files wizards all kersploding everything and turning people into newts than that should have been written right into the rules of magic instead of being permitted and then punished via methods that require a massive amount of ST interpretation.

Like, Mages are at their best when they are doing subtle, sneaky magic that plays tricks of probability and coincidence and stuff like that anyway, and the game obviously wants to encourage that mechanically... so I don't see why you bother with allowing "Throw a Fireball Down Main Street" or "Turn The President Into A Hamster" as even valid spells at all.

Either be a game about urban wizards who use knowledge and skill to con reality, or be a game about Tim The Enchanter but don't try to be both, it just leads to broken rules.
It was legacy code, and is being phased out.
See: Mage: the Awakening 2nd Edition development documents.
 
Like, Mages are at their best when they are doing subtle, sneaky magic that plays tricks of probability and coincidence and stuff like that anyway, and the game obviously wants to encourage that mechanically... so I don't see why you bother with allowing "Throw a Fireball Down Main Street" or "Turn The President Into A Hamster" as even valid spells at all.

The idea that you could do that, that if you didn't care about the consequences you could go loud and blast a city block to ruin or something before you get smacked down says things about what it is that's limiting your power - it's external to you. You can be the most enlightened soul to ever touch the base earth and paradox will still smack you if you step too far out of line. Well, at least in Ascension - I'm less solid on the ideas that make up Awakening's magic, but I imagine that the thematic point is much the same. The Abyss is foreign, it isn't inherent to how magic works, it is something else that strikes at those who catch its attention but if you're arrogant enough to not care about that you can call down the supernal truth and reshape the world as you wish for however long you last.

Now you can say that set-up is legacy code, that they jumped to Ascension-style limiters on magic too quickly and distorted the themes and gameplay because they weren't solely considering the current game but its predecessor, but there is a significant difference between 'you can do this but you'll get hurt for it', 'you could do this if you were more powerful, but you're not' and 'you can't do it at all'. A game where Tim the Enchanter could let loose but runs cons for fear of resultant pain is superficially similar to a game where it's Tim the conman, but knowing you've got the metaphysical finger on the big red button makes it a different experience.
 
The idea that you could do that, that if you didn't care about the consequences you could go loud and blast a city block to ruin or something before you get smacked down says things about what it is that's limiting your power - it's external to you. You can be the most enlightened soul to ever touch the base earth and paradox will still smack you if you step too far out of line. Well, at least in Ascension - I'm less solid on the ideas that make up Awakening's magic, but I imagine that the thematic point is much the same. The Abyss is foreign, it isn't inherent to how magic works, it is something else that strikes at those who catch its attention but if you're arrogant enough to not care about that you can call down the supernal truth and reshape the world as you wish for however long you last.
In the case of Awakening, the Abyss is an Anti-Reality.
An alien existence spawned forth by the sundering of the Silver Ladder, or perhaps when the ladder was broke the two ends tried in vein to connect to each other, and failing to do so ripped a whole into another alien existence and bridged the gap between one another that way.

In the end, it doesn't matter how the Abyss came to be, only that it is an infection upon the soul of our reality. A self inflicted blight that's ultimate goals seem to be the utter and complete entropic destruction of our reality. Everything that the Abyss touches, it either corrupts and twists into it's alien image, or manipulates it to cause entropy in our reality.

This can be seen through the agents that inevitably become ensnared to work for the Abyss, who are given often what seem to be none nonsensical tasks. An example would be to release a single bee into a mall's ventilation system. Why? If you follow the bee you would see that it passes into the mall and stings a woman. The woman dies of an allergic reaction. Her family disintegrates as she was the grandmother holding a massive family tree of people together. Several of her children fight over the inheritance, ruining the connections between all of the families. Several of the children run off with the money in an attempt to keep it from the others, leaving their own children to suffer.

All of this, and even more consequences, radiate out like a nuclear blast through social ties and connections surrounding the family.

This is the way of the Abyss.
This is the consequence of the hubris of mankind.
 
Last edited:
Also, in other news, as shown in the Onyx Path brochure, the new splat will be Deviant: The *******, developed by Dave Brookshaw. He has revealed a bit more about it at the Gencon Panel for nWod as well as on /tg

Inspirations have been named: Orphan Black, Sense8 and Akira.

Argh. The best thing about sense8 is how it humanizes it's characters. Aside from Caiphas, none of them are exactly socially acceptable in their home culture, but the show does a great job of making them sympathetic, and more to the point, ordinary people getting on with their socially difficult lives.

The very title of deviant kinda starts the whole thing in the wrong direction, emphasizing strangeness and inciting dehumanization and otherization.
 
Last edited:
So, one of the things about the Guardians of the Veil that I love is the Law of the Mask, the Guardians praxis of oral teachings in the forms of parables, koans and anectodes. And since I have a Guardian pc, I'd love to incorporate it in my current chronicle My problem is that I suck at coming up with that kind of profound-sounding aforisms. I sometimes manage to do it on fly, but if someone could give me suggestions on how to prepare somes, or point me to useful sources, I would really appreciate it.

On the same vein, since I like using the stuff in the order books, I seeded a lot of stuff about things like Project SHADOWFALL and the old "operative schools" that the book says the Guardians used to run during the Cold War. In a bit of synchronicity, this happened while I started archive binging Panopticon Quest, so of course the culmination of my "subtle" storytelling culminated in a story where the cabal teamed up with an old, headscarf-wearing, black-suited Arab woman from the Guardians to hunt down a powerful Scelestus. My Guardian pc was so impressed by the woman that he as asked her to instruct him.

So, what I'm asking you is, how would you do the Belltower Legacy?
I was thinking Fate primary, with maybe Mind or Time for the secondary attainments, but I'm not sure.
 
Last edited:
I would have though that Jamelia would be a member of the Seers of the Throne.

On the subject, does anyone have ideas to make the Seers a more sympathetic / playable faction similar to the way that Panopticon portrayed the Technocracy? The depiction in Mage the Awakening of the Seers as being pure "Evil" with no significant redeeming qualities has always bugged me and I would love to see some more rationale alternative perspectives on this faction.
 
I would have though that Jamelia would be a member of the Seers of the Throne.

On the subject, does anyone have ideas to make the Seers a more sympathetic / playable faction similar to the way that Panopticon portrayed the Technocracy? The depiction in Mage the Awakening of the Seers as being pure "Evil" with no significant redeeming qualities has always bugged me and I would love to see some more rationale alternative perspectives on this faction.

More rational? I mean, how is it irrational? I don't get that, really.
 
Well, they're basically the ones going "Maybe don't remake the ladder that ascended the mages of ages past to the level of omnipotent gods and broke the universe with its sundering, guys. Maybe just let them be in charge and don't cause trouble. Maybe that would be safer than trying to challenge them, and also not destroy the world by piercing the vault of heaven again. Sound good?"

Much like Banishers, they do... kind of have a point.
 
I agree that the central goal behind the Seers is logical but am strongly opposed to the way that they are depicted as pursuing this goal. The Seers are generally depicted as equivalent to the level of comic book level villainy and their actions seem to be blatantly evil. They don't seem like a faction which would attract the service and loyalty of any but the most gullible followers.

I would like to see the Seers reframed as a faction that could seriously attract the loyalty of powerful and moral mages. They should logically have at least as much appeal as the Diamond orders if they are to act as a realistic rival.
 
Back
Top