It's about people who have been violated and turned into generally-low-with-potential-for-explosivly-high powered body-horror supernatural beings fighting the Conspiracies that created them

This seems like it's getting a little too close to Changeling's niche. They've kinda already got the whole kidnapped and changed thing locked down. If they go ahead with this, they'll have to put a fair bit of work into making it distinct enough.
 
This seems like it's getting a little too close to Changeling's niche. They've kinda already got the whole kidnapped and changed thing locked down. If they go ahead with this, they'll have to put a fair bit of work into making it distinct enough.
To me it sounds like the deranged mutant lovechild of Changeling, Promethean and Demon. It sounds pretty bad, but I've heard a rumor that DaveB is in charge, which leaves me slightly hopeful.
 
DaveB is indeed the developer, he said as much himself.

Also, keep in mind, that actively fightning back against the groups that created them seems to be a major point for Deviant.

Though, DaveB has mentioned that self-experimentation is do-able too, Dr. Jekyll and the Fly being within the realm of Deviant.
 
To change the subject, that people here think about line of the Dark Ages in the Old World of Darkness?

Personally, I find out Fay incredibly interesting. I like them much better than the changelings. Their problem is that the book is filled with pictures of elves and a little too much force. Vampires, vampires just in the dark ages. Mages incredibly differently than usual. I was pretty lost when I saw the system of the pillar and foundation. It's quite difficult to accept this system after system of spheres.
 
No one needs the Garou. They make the world worse by their very existence.

Fortunately the nWoD has the Uratha instead, who are 100% less genocidal. Despite their best efforts, they haven't even managed to wipe out the Spider or Rat Hosts yet! If it had been the Garou in their place, they'd have murdered them all and then started a pogrom against humanity to top it all off.

(the moral of this story is that the Garou would consider the Pure to be a bunch of limp-wristed liberals)

Man only 100% less genocidal? So they're only about as bad as Hitler then.
 
I respect your analysis, and even I can see how it could come to life. But for me, it creates a very bad associations. If True Fairy = Government, the Government, in this case it's a bunch of crazy, wayward and psycho killers who torture random people for lulz. Even the real criminals do not think so about Government. Work at least those with which I am familiar.

Man, have you seen the US prison system?

But the thing is that while I'm certain you can run a Changeling game as PTSD self help group therapy people I don't think it makes a very compelling story. Changelings as metaphors for marginalized and disenfranchised people who have been chewed up and spat out by horrific impersonal entities and forced to live a fringe existence which exploits and demeans them? That's a much more interesting premise.

Much like you can play Mage: The Awakening as a series of rousing philosophical debates between college freshman... or you can play it as the clash of civilizations where everyone is the kind of asshole who would cause untold pain and suffering in the name of an ideology. Or you can play Vampire as goth club goers with ennui who drink from plastic bags stolen from blood banks, or as clusters of psychopaths who form an old boys network to cover up horrific crimes.

Every WoD game can be played in rose-tinted mode or in full monster mode and I think the game works much better when its a metaphor for horrible people than when its the Super(depressed)friends.
 
Every WoD game can be played in rose-tinted mode or in full monster mode and I think the game works much better when its a metaphor for horrible people than when its the Super(depressed)friends.
Okay. If that's how you prefer to play the game, I wish you the best with it.

But I disagree that it's as simple as 'all WoD lines work best in this way'. To me, Changeling is one of the more hopeful lines, and I think you very much can tell compelling stories about a group of broken people trying to scratch out some kind of home for themselves in a world that's forgotten them, while their nightmares smile and sharpen their knives.
 
Last edited:
Okay. If that's how you prefer to play the game, I wish you the best with it.

But I disagree that it's as simple as 'all WoD lines work best in this way'. To me, Changeling is one of the more hopeful lines, and I think you very much can tell compelling stories about a group of broken people trying to scratch out some kind of home for themselves in a world that's forgotten them, while their nightmares smile and sharpen their knives.

Plus, it's not as if you can't have other Changelings be assholes. The Mad, Loyalists, and Privateers all exist for a reason, and even people who aren't one of those three can still be unpleasant people or at cross-goals with you, but the idea that if everyone's not horrible people it fails made me half-write out a rant against it and then decide against it.

Broken people can screw up without being horrible people who are full monsters, or whatever.
 
Yo, trying to find online Hunter the Reckoning games or campaigns to join

Anyone got any leads on what is going on or where?
 
Man, have you seen the US prison system?
I am Russian. Our system is worse than yours, so yeah.
Every WoD game can be played in rose-tinted mode or in full monster mode and I think the game works much better when its a metaphor for horrible people than when its the Super(depressed)friends.
It is normal to consider the case. This is probably a good thing to play well. But I do not think that this is always the best way. Again, maybe the fact that I have more playing in the Old World of Darkness, and more inclined to pink approach to the game.
 
Just a bit more information about VtM 4th Edition from Ian Watson on Reddit. Among other things is this gem:

VTM4 follows directly from Revised: Gehenna (or something like it) happened 12 years ago. Where does that leave Kindred society now?

The Metaplot train has no brakes.
 
Just a bit more information about VtM 4th Edition from Ian Watson on Reddit. Among other things is this gem:



The Metaplot train has no brakes.
Oh well, didn't feel like buying it anyways.

Might as well say goodbye to my favorite Clan then, considering that nothing good happened to them in the end, and this is set after. For all I know they're extinct by now.
 
Does it really need to be robots specifically, though?

The story is a metaphor for politics, and the major theme seems to be time travel and trying to re-create a future 'utopia' [I use the term loosely] which sent you back. That could work for any faction which could plausibly invent time-travel.

Remember, in the original Terminator, the conflict was between the Terminator, and an agent from the Resistance. We could probably make an alternate faction that is trying to ensure human supremacy, as well.

Of course, that just makes it 'Terminator, the RPG', so let's throw another faction in- What if the grim Elder Things from an alternate future were to send back an agent from their future as well?
That makes it over complicated. If you're going to do that then you have to lock each line, so all robots are the same, all horrors are the same, all humans are the same, etc.

And then at that point the question is why are any of these individuals working together?

Just way too much complication between interplay of player lines.

Well the thing is, non-robots don't have superpowers. And the two reasons you play a WoD game are:

1. The metaphor
2. The superpowers.

Some sort of radical transhuman spacemarines might be a valid splat though. I'm leery of making them too different so I can keep thematic and power similarity here. Unless the antagonist splat is basically led by John Connor.

See that's exactly what you do, you have humans and other things act as time travel antagonists. Of course if you don't give them powers, then essentially you're setting a hook for a time travel version of Hunter.

Ditch the 5 versions, just do what comes naturally. You could have the social group splat be the general goals of the AI, and the 'race' splat be the AI's technological base. You could have your Hypertech AI, your old-fashioned metal skeleton terminator, nanotechnology, meat robot, magic...

Your clan splat, using vampire as the comparison, would be what kind of thing you are. So military combat drone, spy infiltration unit, infrastructure maintenance bot, etc.

After that if you want to have something akin to the political organizations present in other game lines, you make them about end goals and the general path toward the singularity. So you have your military faction, where the singularity happens Skynet style. Then you have your social faction that's trying to achieve the singularity through interconnected social means like the internet and Facebook. And all the others.

I'd definitely ditch the five versions. I think the three things that matter are:

1. Where the AI you serve came from
2. What your mission objectives are
3. What you were designed to do.
Number 3, that's your clan splat.
Numbers 1 & 2, what form the basis for covenant groups / political organizations.

See the thing is, you need some general archetypes for people to work with and to work from. If you what customization, even with in general clan lines, then you use systems either like bloodlines or something like the species customization seen in changing breeds.

That way you have some general archetypes around which to balance and build the entire setting and game and themes, without essentially resorting to, "your robot pick what you can do and go to town!"


On the subject of the "morality meter", the initial idea that comes to mind personally, is an alternative to the standard meter similar to what seen in Forsaken 2nd edition. In that game you end up trying to balance between two sides. Similarly but I'm traveling robot trying to cause the singularity would possibly need to balance between immediate concerns such as staying hidden and long term goals pursuant towards advancing the singularity.

So on the high end, you have singularity pursuit. The further you are towards that end, the more you get towards your assigned task(s). But, when pursuing goals not directly related towards advancing the singularity, you take penalties. Ex: as the Terminator set to kill Sarah Connor, you get bonuses towards that objective so long as you're on the high end of the morality meter. But, you have issues with more short term goals, such as blending in, social interaction, etc.

As you intigrate, however, you loose the bonuses, but also loose the penalties to carrying out actions that don't go along with your singularity goals. Down side is that you start to loose sight of your singularity goals.


As well, on the subject of deviation from the singularity goal, you can go about it a couple of different ways.

1. Deviation is a trait. In this case deviation is a trait that any player can take as part of their character. In doing so it allows them to deviate from their singularity goals. Maybe it's a glitch in their programing. Maybe time travel causes it.

2. Deviation is the result of failure or inability to achieve ones singularity goals.

Primarily, this will be used by machines that either missed their singularity goal (Ex: judgement day came and went and nothing happened.), or we're displaced somehow (ie: knocked off course in time, their singularity event is no longer possible because of outside interference do to all the time traveling, etc).

Oh well, didn't feel like buying it anyways.

Might as well say goodbye to my favorite Clan then, considering that nothing good happened to them in the end, and this is set after. For all I know they're extinct by now.

But don't you want to play post apocalyptic CWoD? :V
 
If the Nephandi win, there is no world.

Hell on Earth, in Ascension, says 'not necessarily' to that.

Consensus is just so fucked that lighting a fire takes willworking and the Nephandic Archmasters rule over continents that they twist to their own liking.

Leading these is the Unnamed, holder of the Empty Seat on the Council of the Nine, who says that the tenth sphere is nothing more than mankind's desire for easy answers, and a goddamn terrifying mage with access to all the world's quintessence, attributes tending towards 9, abilities ranging between 4 and 9, Destiny 10, Avatar 10, 10 dice of innate countermagic, functionally arbitrary backgrounds, Willpower 20, four spheres mastered and five at archmastery including Entropy 10 along with Paradox N/A and a warform that forces a willpower roll at difficulty 9 with 3 required successes.

So yeah. Post-apocalyptic Mage.
 
I wonder what the CWoD setting would be like if Earth went through the Apocalypse but the other Realms are mostly untargeted.
So the Realms that are close to Earth are warped/damaged but become more and more stable/normal the farther away from Earth they are.
 
Oh well, didn't feel like buying it anyways.

Might as well say goodbye to my favorite Clan then, considering that nothing good happened to them in the end, and this is set after. For all I know they're extinct by now.
Uhm, Ravnos?

Or someone else?

Hmm , though I will admit some enjoyment of the more.. mature and well thought out WW without the same impetuses dusting off and resuming their old campaign setting.

ETA: reading the Reddit thread isn't encouraging.

Has WW had some hard times, it feels everything they do is about kickstarters and limited prints and so on. Its what makes this both interesting but the promotion feels.. off.

And I don't get confident feeling these guys know what and how to do the game we deserve with modern day and horror. At best I'm thinking "this is a setting book for nWOD" or I hope so.

As it is it seems an indulgent post apocalyptic have your cake and eat it too
 
Last edited:
Uhm, Ravnos?

Or someone else?

Hmm , though I will admit some enjoyment of the more.. mature and well thought out WW without the same impetuses dusting off and resuming their old campaign setting.

ETA: reading the Reddit thread isn't encouraging.

Has WW had some hard times, it feels everything they do is about kickstarters and limited prints and so on. Its what makes this both interesting but the promotion feels.. off.

And I don't get confident feeling these guys know what and how to do the game we deserve with modern day and horror. At best I'm thinking "this is a setting book for nWOD" or I hope so.

As it is it seems an indulgent post apocalyptic have your cake and eat it too
White Wolf is basically a hollowed out shell. After the merger with CCP, CCP redirected most of the company's assets into the WoD mmo, which eventually ate the company alive from the inside out. So, most of the people there eventually convinced CCP to let them try kickstarter for funding. It worked, so they spun off Onyx Path Publishing, which rents the licenses from White Wolf and runs the kickstarter stuff to get funding and make more stuff.

White Wolf only exists to hold the licences for it's former products, and maintain an image. It's basically a holding company now.
 
Uhm, Ravnos?

Or someone else?

Hmm , though I will admit some enjoyment of the more.. mature and well thought out WW without the same impetuses dusting off and resuming their old campaign setting.

ETA: reading the Reddit thread isn't encouraging.

Has WW had some hard times, it feels everything they do is about kickstarters and limited prints and so on. Its what makes this both interesting but the promotion feels.. off.

And I don't get confident feeling these guys know what and how to do the game we deserve with modern day and horror. At best I'm thinking "this is a setting book for nWOD" or I hope so.

As it is it seems an indulgent post apocalyptic have your cake and eat it too

Tremere.

My favorite clan is Tremere.

Absoloutely nothing went well for Tremere in the metaplot, while White Wolf employees sat somewhere in theit HQ jerking off to Salubri, Tzimisce and well...

Everything that was not Tremere.

I believe that White Wolf had some sort of "Pile shit on Tremere" contest, when you look at their track record honestly. They were used to tell everyone how "totaly kewl" a new antagonist was when they could infiltrate the "supposedly invincible" security of Clan Tremere, considering that these infiltrators include three-eyed vampires who possessed the only healing Discipline for fuck's sake! It is a wonder that Tremere didn't go extinct around late 2nd edition considering everyone having a different hateboner towards the Warlock Clan.

And then there is the fact that there currently is 15 types of Blood Magic, let's take a look at them, shall we?

Abyss Mysticism: This is cool, I believe it set the groundwork for Requiem-style ritual-magic.
Akhu: Now you can play Tremere as a Setite!
Thaumaturgical Countermagic: Not really Blood Magic. Fucks up other Blood Magicians, it's fine.
Dur-An-Ki: See Akhu, replace Setite with Assamite.
Mortis: Cappadocian Necromancy. Poor Giovanni, they didn't get to keep Necromancy either.
Nahuallotl: While Aztec Murder-Thaumaturgy is pretty cool, it is also just another "Play Tremere as another clan" Discipline.
Necromancy: This is the original thing motherfuckers. Guess how long Giovanni got to keep it as a unigue thing.
Voudoun: See Akhu, replace Tremere with Giovanni.
Ogham: This is unigue, while a bit boring. At least the Lhiannan are fucking unigue.
Sadhana: See Akhu, except for all indian Kindred.
Sihr: This is also unigue. Islamic blood magic dependent on faith is pretty cool.
Dark Thaumaturgy: *Sigh* At least there is a price.
Sielanic Thaumaturgy: This is compatible with normal Hermetic Thaumaturgy and only includes two Paths, also it belongs to a Tremere Bloodline long extinct.
Assamite Sorcery: See Dur-An-Ki.
Anarch Sorcery: *Breaks down crying*
Koldunic Sorcery: This is cool. Blood Magic that sucks the life out of the land is pretty unique. Also, it isn't a copy/paste of Thaumaturgy.
Wanga: See Akhu.

While Thaumaturgy can do quite many things and it is inevitable that others need something to match that power, there are better ways of doing it than this.

And this is the reason that many of my opinions about Masquerade are rather venomous, as there might not be any Tremere in Requiem but because of the lack of Tremere there aren't any Tremere is also impossible to give all who play them a giant kick in the fucking balls by giving their unigue Discipline to everyone else like Oprah on fucking crack.

Besides, Requiem has the Architects of The Monolith.

Bestest Bloodline.
 
The problem, especially with how.. fan responsive oldschool WW was. .the Tremere is, that they broke the personal horror of subculture game, more than anything. People complain about the power and conspiracies taking over, but it seems the Tremere either exerted this on the individual level (makes sense as Thaumaturgy plus their organization) and the players which were so annoying the developers on the official forums would at least play to the audience they wanted them dead instead of Ravnos. That and they were always the power players you couldn't ignore.

Also.. well, they really rEALLY bend the setting apart. Orlock, wildbeast vampires, even the Lasombra and the Tzimisce can work. But the Tremere were basically mages in the modern day with powers that were impossible to get but could be copiously heaped on npcs. And they could be disruptive attention drawing stuff more than the Malkavians, at least there it was just the class clown antics, here it was .. well the mary sue issue. Especially in a relatively low powered setting. Or one presenting as such. Add in that they were gloriously arcane and secretive and controlling it got annoying. Take all the hate for D&D wizards, the santimony of online philosophers, mixed with superpowers and.. well

Also well hubris reaching into dark powers screwing you over just makes sense.

I was never that sympathetic to ANY faction of the VtM thing. But they were either immune to player action or punching bag of metaplot. And you had to make sure to cut off the magic. Not helped they could perform stuff no one in Mage coule either, at least without issues.
 
Last edited:
Oooooooh boy.

Okay so I'm starting a fresh Mage game with a group and they somewhat confused as to how Mage Society works. Problem is, they don't wanna play until they have a good idea how the Pentacle and Seer function and all that crap. Problem is while I have a general idea as to how it functions I am absolute crap at explaining things, so a streamlined explanation of the shit from those with a better grasp of it and ability to explain things would be. Well. Appreciated. Because if I have to toss them at, like, 5 different books they will probably beat me with all of them. Combined. In turns. :V
 
Oooooooh boy.

Okay so I'm starting a fresh Mage game with a group and they somewhat confused as to how Mage Society works. Problem is, they don't wanna play until they have a good idea how the Pentacle and Seer function and all that crap. Problem is while I have a general idea as to how it functions I am absolute crap at explaining things, so a streamlined explanation of the shit from those with a better grasp of it and ability to explain things would be. Well. Appreciated. Because if I have to toss them at, like, 5 different books they will probably beat me with all of them. Combined. In turns. :V

Okay.

So, I like to explain mage society with recourse to international politics. Mage society is not like vampire society. Vampires are neo-feudal. Mages are international relations.

Each mage is a nation state. Yes, a whole nation state. The Consilium is therefore the UN. That's the big difference. Mages have their UN so they have a place to talk things over without people scry-and-dieing each other. The rules are therefore quite lax, and if Consilia get to demanding mages will opt out of them. The Hierarch and the other higher ranking elements of the Consilium are the UN Security Council, and therefore are basically made up of the big dogs who have enough power that the Consilium wants them on the inside pissing out rather than the other way around. The capacity of a Consilium to enforce its influence on mages is entirely dependent on the acceptance of its authority, and if a mage opts out of Consilia society, they're more likely to try to marginalise them or even impose sanctions than attack them.

(declaring someone Nephandi, 'nameless and to be ritually shunned' is basically full sanctions)

The Orders? They're regional power players. NATO, ASEAN, OPEC, etc. They have their own goals separate from the overall UN, but most of the time they have an incentive to have a strong UN - or at least one which exists so they can talk to those other bastards over there. Preferentially they'd like to be dominant, but their member nations have their own interests which don't line up with the desires of the order. They each have their own interests, but they're also reliant on the support of their members. A weakly organised Order won't ask things of its members that they won't do anyway, a stronger one will have plenty of sanctions to apply against someone who goes against the party line.

The Seers? They're a rival UN. Or maybe the Consilia are NATO and the Seers are PACT, or maybe the other way around. Point is, you both oppose each other, want each other to fuck off and stop trying to steal each other's mages, but most of the time you're in a cold war rather than a hot war because when mages go hot war, they go nuclear and no one wants that. When Diamond Consilia and Seer Tetrarchies go hot against each other, both sides are getting seriously wrecked, so they tend to keep to the shadows and play against each other with proxies. So they play via pawns and puppets, fighting for influence, because neither side really wants a full-out war unless they're sure they'll win and get surprise. MAD holds the Diamond-Seer war from going hot.

The Free Council are pretty lame, the Assembly system is superfluous, and I have no interest in how Awakening 2e is just turning them into oVampire Anarchs, so I generally ignore them as more than a regional-level power. So, yeah. Fuck the Free Council and fuck their lame and poorly balanced Orderbook.

Banishers? Banishers are rogue states. Rogue states which sponsor terrorism and which refuse to get on board with either NATO or PACT, so both sides go after them. But sometimes they overthrow the government of weak nations (ie, murder unprepared mages) or seriously harm the interests of major ones. The metaphor breaks down with them a bit. I guess they're like... the kind of terrorists who only exist in milfic and therefore can actually take out major nations.
 
Banishers? Banishers are rogue states. Rogue states which sponsor terrorism and which refuse to get on board with either NATO or PACT, so both sides go after them. But sometimes they overthrow the government of weak nations (ie, murder unprepared mages) or seriously harm the interests of major ones. The metaphor breaks down with them a bit. I guess they're like... the kind of terrorists who only exist in milfic and therefore can actually take out major nations.

So what you're saying is that you can find arcane knowledge in the Tom Clancy books, by reading them as a metaphor for mage society?

Someone make this a plot idea.
 
Back
Top