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White Wolf's World of Darkness

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Um, now that I think about it, how exactly are Mummy and Geist 2e reconciled? I'm not far into the Mummy sourcebooks (damn this shit is dense) but so far they seem kinda incompatible.
 
I mean it's important to understand these games settings are not primarily written to be cross compatible.
 
The_Reptile_ said:
I mean it's important to understand these games settings are not primarily written to be cross compatible.
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Well of course not, but there's fun stories to be found in mixing them. For an example, you could center an entire chronicle around the difference and similarities between the rules for krewes/ceremonies/mementos in Geist 2e and the rules for packs/rites/fetishes in Werewolf 2e. There's more than enough real world places to provide the setting for two insular and spiritual groups to clash when their respective host minority groups are forced into direct competition/conflict by an uncaring or outright malevolent authority.
 
Gamerlord said:
Well of course not, but there's fun stories to be found in mixing them. For an example, you could center an entire chronicle around the difference and similarities between the rules for krewes/ceremonies/mementos in Geist 2e and the rules for packs/rites/fetishes in Werewolf 2e. There's more than enough real world places to provide the setting for two insular and spiritual groups to clash when their respective host minority groups are forced into direct competition/conflict by an uncaring or outright malevolent authority.
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Tbh it's like...honestly Mummy is, from what I know of it, much like Demon in that it's best served by assuming primacy of the material (requires it even) and kinda off Being Its Own Thing regardless. Just because the time scales at play and the more -for lack of a better word- cosmic nature of the stuff doesn't really play well with more street-by-street, city-by-city focused stuff. It's interesting to note really that like Geists, Werewolves, Changelings, and Vampires (and Prometheans, technically, but a Promethean campaign is a goddamn cryptid) actually can work pretty well together, especially at the city/regional level. And I haven't actually read through the Deviant stuff completely but from what I've seen it's very much in that spectrum too? That space where none of them immediately and completely outclass the others a la Mage, they have their own semi-overlapping areas of focus, and you can even work Hunter in there pretty well (albeit by doing a reverse of what Hunter does where it provides watered down versions of PC splats for the purpose of being an antagonist). I mean I'm hella partial to the urban fantasy kitchen sink feeling and I use it as seasoning for the games I run, so I don't disagree with what you're saying. Although I tend to take more the approach of "there's only so much real estate in X urban area, so while a given city might be heavily Vampire tilted or Changeling leaning depending on who the actual PC splat, there's still Other Groups around and you run into them semi-frequently in the shadows".
 
TenfoldShields said:
Tbh it's like...honestly Mummy is, from what I know of it, much like Demon in that it's best served by assuming primacy of the material (requires it even) and kinda off Being Its Own Thing regardless. Just because the time scales at play and the more -for lack of a better word- cosmic nature of the stuff doesn't really play well with more street-by-street, city-by-city focused stuff. It's interesting to note really that like Geists, Werewolves, Changelings, and Vampires (and Prometheans, technically, but a Promethean campaign is a goddamn cryptid) actually can work pretty well together, especially at the city/regional level. And I haven't actually read through the Deviant stuff completely but from what I've seen it's very much in that spectrum too? That space where none of them immediately and completely outclass the others a la Mage, they have their own semi-overlapping areas of focus, and you can even work Hunter in there pretty well (albeit by doing a reverse of what Hunter does where it provides watered down versions of PC splats for the purpose of being an antagonist). I mean I'm hella partial to the urban fantasy kitchen sink feeling and I use it as seasoning for the games I run, so I don't disagree with what you're saying. Although I tend to take more the approach of "there's only so much real estate in X urban area, so while a given city might be heavily Vampire tilted or Changeling leaning depending on who the actual PC splat, there's still Other Groups around and you run into them semi-frequently in the shadows".
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Well there's something neat there; Promethean kinda can be merged with Mummy. There's definite thematic overlap, their cosmology isn't *too* different and the differences there are are just fodder for more stories.
 
Gamerlord said:
Well there's something neat there; Promethean kinda can be merged with Mummy. There's definite thematic overlap, their cosmology isn't *too* different and the differences there are are just fodder for more stories.
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Nnnnnnnoooooot really tbh, I'm less familiar with Mummy but Promethean is by and large about an intensely personal journey of self-discovery and self-actualization. A small group of people, constantly moving through a world that hates them, trying to build themselves into the people they want to be. It loses something pretty important when it's generalized into Being A Part of the Kitchen Sink. Like even if you're going the Dresden Files route and just throwing a ton of stuff into one city (and I love Dresden Files for all it's problems tbh, it's what got me into UF in the first place) even then Prometheans should be these weird fringe things that are more passing through and not well understood than a part of the familiar terrain. And Mummy, afaik, still has pretty much all the same problems it has with non-Mummy stuff if you mix them together.

Like to re-iterate if you wanna do the kitchen sink stuff Geist/Werewolf/Vampire/Changeling and then mildly retooled Hunters (as a hazard, kind of out of context problem, phenomenon catalyzed by the reaction of the supernatural and the normal rather than some, like, all consuming external threat) and Witchified Mages/Sorcerers (where they're sorta like Mages but restrained by a given praxis) are where it's at really.
 
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TenfoldShields said:
Nnnnnnnoooooot really tbh, I'm less familiar with Mummy but Promethean is by and large about an intensely personal journey of self-discovery and self-actualization. A small group of people, constantly moving through a world that hates them, trying to build themselves into the people they want to be. It loses something pretty important when it's generalized into Being A Part of the Kitchen Sink. Like even if you're going the Dresden Files route and just throwing a ton of stuff into one city (and I love Dresden Files for all it's problems tbh, it's what got me into UF in the first place) even then Prometheans should be these weird fringe things that are more passing through and not well understood than a part of the familiar terrain. And Mummy, afaik, still has pretty much all the same problems it has with non-Mummy stuff if you mix them together.

Like to re-iterate if you wanna do the kitchen sink stuff Geist/Werewolf/Vampire/Changeling and then mildly retooled Hunters (as a hazard, kind of out of context problem, phenomenon catalyzed by the reaction of the supernatural and the normal rather than some, like, all consuming external threat) and Witchified Mages/Sorcerers (where they're sorta like Mages but restrained by a given praxis) are where it's at really.
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Mummy is (well, can be) about holding onto your humanity after Descent after Descent, while Promethean is about finding your humanity. There's at least room for something there between them, especially given that some of the guilds of Mummy have some common ground with things the Prometheans do (Mesen-Nebu, alchemy) or are (Su-Menent, 'shells', which are made of corpses).
 
Hm, I could see a story getting some good milage out of needing to figure out just which of these fringe cases this out of context problem is.

Say our totally-not-Harry Dresden protagonist gets suckered into trying to save the local evil corporation being menaced by a mysterious figure.

Is it...

A) An ancient guardian arisen to demand they return the slab (Mummy)

B) A tragic monster aggrieved for some other reason (Promeathean)

C) The result of the corporation's experiments fusing magic and tech looking for some sweet revenge (Deviant)

D) A man with the soul of a monster that's decided the company's crimes deserve punishment (Beast)
 
Gamerlord said:
Mummy is (well, can be) about holding onto your humanity after Descent after Descent, while Promethean is about finding your humanity. There's at least room for something there between them, especially given that some of the guilds of Mummy have some common ground with things the Prometheans do (Mesen-Nebu, alchemy) or are (Su-Menent, 'shells', which are made of corpses).
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Queshire said:
Hm, I could see a story getting some good milage out of needing to figure out just which of these fringe cases this out of context problem is.

Say our totally-not-Harry Dresden protagonist gets suckered into trying to save the local evil corporation being menaced by a mysterious figure.

Is it...

A) An ancient guardian arisen to demand they return the slab (Mummy)

B) A tragic monster aggrieved for some other reason (Promeathean)

C) The result of the corporation's experiments fusing magic and tech looking for some sweet revenge (Deviant)

D) A man with the soul of a monster that's decided the company's crimes deserve punishment (Beast)
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I mean it's-

It's kinda like I said though. Promethean is so narrowly focused on its own thing that slipping any kind of wedge between the seams is actually really hard. It's not bad, not by any means, just kinda weird and very...tight, narratively and thematically and upfront with What It Wants and What It's About. There's your journey to become real, to become a person, to become a part of this weird, rusting, strange world no matter the pain, no matter the effort. It's fundamentally about that journey, about that struggle to self-actualize you, who were born from the dead but are not alive, you who are incomplete and inhuman and want so badly to be human. It's a narrow niche and it's clear, imo. And like I said that's not a bad thing either, you have a whole host of other lines to play with depending on how much horror/politics/mystery/etc you want.

Mummy meanwhile is -an @ManusDomini was telling me about it some, since he really likes it- way more about...like. How all your awesome power and magical might, how your desert swallowed kingdom and long-ruined grandeur, how even though so much of history as it's known (and unknown) lives in your shadow it hasn't really brought you what you want. You're a king in a memory-palace, something from deep history awakened, but you're leashed by your legacy. You're a slave to the past and to something that doesn't understand or appreciate you. Mummy isn't about become human so much as finding a reason to exist in the emptiness of immortality that isn't defined wholly as "serve others". Also it very distinctly doesn't have the same cosmology (a notable lack of one in a lot of respects) as compared to Promethean's Azoth et. Al.

Beast should honestly just be rolled into a grave off the highway and forgotten. :V Even without the greasy fingerprints all over it it doesn't really have a clear vision or clarity of purpose imo, bad ideas executed badly under the leadership of a Bad Guy. There's not a lot worth saving there and, tbh, little that other gamelines don't really do better.

Honestly of the four, Deviant is the best for that, like, story concept.
 
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TenfoldShields said:
Beast should honestly just be rolled into a grave off the highway and forgotten. :V Even without the greasy fingerprints all over it it doesn't really have a clear vision or clarity of purpose imo, bad ideas executed badly under the leadership of a Bad Guy. There's not a lot worth saving there and, tbh, little that other gamelines don't really do better.
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At the very least, Beast is a usuable system for making monsters for use in games of Hunter or just bog standard CoD.
 
Gamerlord said:
At the very least, Beast is a usuable system for making monsters for use in games of Hunter or just bog standard CoD.
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Hhhhhhheeeeennnh is it though? Hunter already provides, like, antagonist versions of player gamelines to work with, enemy Hunter organizations, and just general weird shit. And pretty much every other splat has their own tailor made antagonists, usually with a fairly wide spread of options. Changeling has Huntsmen, Loyalist Lost, True Fae and their Titles, plus hobgoblins and mortal agents. Geist has necromancers, Cthonic Reapers, hostile ghosts, enemy Bound, etc. Mage has the Seers, the Abyss, Left-Handed Legacies, Banishers, That One Fucker Who Keeps Trying To Blackball You In The Consilium. Vampire has, most principally, Other Vampires. I mean it's all...if the best thing you can say about Beast's utility is that it provides niche antagonists that work worse than something out of Summoners or Intruders or Predators (any one of which can also provide Rad Shit that's by and large gameline agnostic) that's not exactly a ringing endorsement.
 
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TenfoldShields said:
Hhhhhhheeeeennnh is it though? Hunter already provides, like, antagonist versions of player gamelines to work with, enemy Hunter organizations, and just general weird shit. And pretty much every other splat has their own tailor made antagonists, usually with a fairly wide spread of options. Changeling has Huntsmen, Loyalist Lost, True Fae and their Titles, plus hobgoblins and mortal agents. Geist has necromancers, Cthonic Reapers, hostile ghosts, enemy Bound, etc. Mage has the Seers, the Abyss, Left-Handed Legacies, Banishers, That One Fucker Who Keeps Trying To Blackball You In The Consilium. Vampire has, most principally, Other Vampires. I mean it's all...if the best thing you can say about Beast's utility is that it provides niche antagonists that work worse than something out of Summoners or Intruders or Predators (any one of which can also provide Rad Shit that's by and large gameline agnostic) that's not exactly a ringing endorsement.
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Eh, I'm biased. I'm currently playing in a short CoD campaign where the antagonist is a Beast.
 
TenfoldShields said:
I mean it's-

It's kinda like I said though. Promethean is so narrowly focused on its own thing that slipping any kind of wedge between the seams is actually really hard. It's not bad, not by any means, just kinda weird and very...tight, narratively and thematically and upfront with What It Wants and What It's About. There's your journey to become real, to become a person, to become a part of this weird, rusting, strange world no matter the pain, no matter the effort. It's fundamentally about that journey, about that struggle to self-actualize you, who were born from the dead but are not alive, you who are incomplete and inhuman and want so badly to be human. It's a narrow niche and it's clear, imo. And like I said that's not a bad thing either, you have a whole host of other lines to play with depending on how much horror/politics/mystery/etc you want.

Mummy meanwhile is -an @ManusDomini was telling me about it some, since he really likes it- way more about...like. How all your awesome power and magical might, how your desert swallowed kingdom and long-ruined grandeur, how even though so much of history as it's known (and unknown) lives in your shadow it hasn't really brought you what you want. You're a king in a memory-palace, something from deep history awakened, but you're leashed by your legacy. You're a slave to the past and to something that doesn't understand or appreciate you. Mummy isn't about become human so much as finding a reason to exist in the emptiness of immortality that isn't defined wholly as "serve others". Also it very distinctly doesn't have the same cosmology (a notable lack of one in a lot of respects) as compared to Promethean's Azoth et. Al.

Beast should honestly just be rolled into a grave off the highway and forgotten. :V Even without the greasy fingerprints all over it it doesn't really have a clear vision or clarity of purpose imo, bad ideas executed badly under the leadership of a Bad Guy. There's not a lot worth saving there and, tbh, little that other gamelines don't really do better.

Honestly of the four, Deviant is the best for that, like, story concept.
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Pffft... I can work all four into the same story.

Say at the start Not!Harry gets shackled with a partner from the company for the investigation. An ordinary looking man with extraordinary abilities and a scary loyalty to the company. This'll be a loyalist Deviant. He'll foreshadow the renegade deviants later along with help pound in the oh shit! Moment that'll come with realizing this muggle company has managed to reach the level of the supernatural.

The Mummy... Probably wouldn't show up until closer to the end of the book, but Not! Harry's research would cough up lore about them pretty early on.

Instead, while trying to search down the Mummy they find a Promeathean instead. Lots of fun stuff to be had there with mistaken identities and tragic monsters and stuff.

That's probably where I would have the group of renegade deviants show up, and transition into having them as the main bad guys.

So blah, blah, blah, everything is a clusterfuck. In the end it winds up that the whole thing was set up by this little shit of a Beast manipulating the renegades, trying to use the Promethean and siccing the Mummy on the company.
 
Queshire said:
Pffft... I can work all four into the same story.

Say at the start Not!Harry gets shackled with a partner from the company for the investigation. An ordinary looking man with extraordinary abilities and a scary loyalty to the company. This'll be a loyalist Deviant. He'll foreshadow the renegade deviants later along with help pound in the oh shit! Moment that'll come with realizing this muggle company has managed to reach the level of the supernatural.

The Mummy... Probably wouldn't show up until closer to the end of the book, but Not! Harry's research would cough up lore about them pretty early on.

Instead, while trying to search down the Mummy they find a Promeathean instead. Lots of fun stuff to be had there with mistaken identities and tragic monsters and stuff.

That's probably where I would have the group of renegade deviants show up, and transition into having them as the main bad guys.

So blah, blah, blah, everything is a clusterfuck. In the end it winds up that the whole thing was set up by this little shit of a Beast manipulating the renegades, trying to use the Promethean and siccing the Mummy on the company.
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I feel like you haven't actually read anything I wrote. :V
 
"I'm going to hug all Prometheans and nothing will ever stop me." - My Mage in my groups new WoD campaign.
 
EarthScorpion said:
Unfortunately, that's the Disquiet speaking. The actual Prometheans want you to go away, leave them alone, and get the fuck out of their personal space.
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"God just fuck off" -every Sin-Eater/Changeling/Werewolf/Vampire dealing with a Mage who has Death/Fate/Spirit/Forces

"Blurgh" -Every Hunter who had his appendix spontaneously explode at the same time
 
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