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White Wolf's World of Darkness

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Theravis said:
I legitimately do enjoy it, but it's not very popular.
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I think it was, for a while, but it was made in the days people were sore about the loss of Enlightened Science.

Times changed, tastes evolved, people became a lot more skeptical of themes that include controlling humanity = good and madness itself = bad, especially among the actual Onyx Path writers (Sean/Kelly Steele - they are fine with either name - has gone on record as really, really hating Genius looking like it said the overthrow of the Lemurians was a bad thing), the overall game system shifted to celebrating player agency and weird concepts, Mage 20th came out - but I think what really killed it thematically was OP making it so that the CofD more or less explicitly runs on Enlightened Science. It's canon that every playable social axis includes their gameline's version of mystical science nerds (or making it so every social splat has mystical science nerds, like Mage or Demon), nobody among the good (or at least better) guys really looks down on their nerds in 2E, and with Deviant we're having things explicitly spelled out that cults trying to make an avatar of their deity and Cobra-caliber think tanks making cyborg super soldiers are working on the same basic principle of "crack open soul to turn person into a supernatural equivalent to a living nuclear reactor." Hell, Shunned by the Moon makes a werewolf mad biologist as its example Ivory Claw, which actually is supported by how she's also a gifted shaman with great respect for the spirit world; it helps her discover new things about the First Change and weaponize it.

Quite simply, the 1E Genii are trying to claim ground that every other splat already owns, and is better at, all without pissing off people. A redone Transgression, which may or may not be worked on (I think it is, but don't quote me on that), needs to figure out how to make that the center of their gameline and how to represent that mechanically. And also make them scientists instead of cWoD Mages Lite.
 
Finally got me a hard copy of Changeling: The Lost 1E off of Amazon!

I admit, I do like 1E Changeling and 1E Requiem and I'd love to do a crossover game of the two for the Halloween season, with some modifications of course.

No Strix! No God-Machine! No Wangst! No Punk Bullshit! I'm going all out with this one!

Personally, I think that Genius: The Transgression is still a good fan game even if the Onyx Path guys don't like it. But Princess: The Hopeful is the best of the New World of Darkness fan games in my book and even with the "Dream vs. Vocation" schism it had in 2E, both versions are a lot better than the official 2E versions of the games put out by Onyx Path
 
Sydonai said:
Really? From what you've said previously I thought that you would like those parts?
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My dislike of Punk is more about my dislike of the Punk subculture and its aesthetics and ideology.

If you're talking about "punk" as in open rebellion against the usual paradigm and doing your own thing? I'm fine with that. But I always saw that as more "Metal" than "Punk"
 
Paulie Romanov said:
My dislike of Punk is more about my dislike of the Punk subculture and its aesthetics and ideology.

If you're talking about "punk" as in open rebellion against the usual paradigm and doing your own thing? I'm fine with that. But I always saw that as more "Metal" than "Punk"
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It's pretty core to punk. And metal in America has never had the same extreme politicization as punk because to the extent it's been a subculture/subcultures it's more been a grouping of general misfits and outcasts against conservative society. And nowadays meatheads are diffuse enough that it's just something people do while rebelling from norms, and usually doesn't push people into actual active conflict against society.

I think it wouldn't really make sense to describe metal as an attitude or spirit in 2019 so much as a feeling or affectation.
 
mothematics said:
It's pretty core to punk. And metal in America has never had the same extreme politicization as punk because to the extent it's been a subculture/subcultures it's more been a grouping of general misfits and outcasts against conservative society. And nowadays meatheads are diffuse enough that it's just something people do while rebelling from norms, and usually doesn't push people into actual active conflict against society.

I think it wouldn't really make sense to describe metal as an attitude or spirit in 2019 so much as a feeling or affectation.
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I'd appreciate not being called a meathead just because I prefer metal to punk, and part of why I dislike punk is because it's so overly politicized and rife with political extremism.

Politics between vampire covenants and changeling courts are more than welcome at the game table, but given the polarized world we live in today, I want to keep real-world politics away from the game as much as I can.

But I suppose the feeling of my games could best be described as "Metal", it's a lot more free spirited, fun-loving, and the open rebellion isn't at society, but at a specific company (Onyx Path) and the more toxic and extreme purist aspects of the World of Darkness fanbase that happen to rule the roost in Onyx Path's circles.

Basically, I just want to embrace the "edgy" and reject the "personal horror" since I play games to have fun. And despite what Kelly Steele at Onyx Path may say, wanting to have fun is NOT a sign of immaturity. I may respect her skills as a game developer, but at the end of the day the only reason anyone plays these games is to have fun.

Tabletop gaming is a hobby, it's something you do for fun.

Hating fun does not mean that someone is "grown up", it just means they're pretentious, bitter, and insufferable. Especially in something as trivial as gaming. It's only a game and nothing more, and that truth applies to myself and everyone else.

Life's too short to make hobbies super-serious. Games and other hobbies are meant as a break from the serious.

I've been taking an extended break from all gaming but I want to get back into it. I even got a few IRL friends interested in playing, as well as my uncle.
 
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Paulie Romanov said:
I'd appreciate not being called a meathead just because I prefer metal to punk, and part of why I dislike punk is because it's so overly politicized and rife with political extremism.

Politics between vampire covenants and changeling courts are more than welcome at the game table, but given the polarized world we live in today, I want to keep real-world politics away from the game as much as I can.

But I suppose the feeling of my games could best be described as "Metal", it's a lot more free spirited, fun-loving, and the open rebellion isn't at society, but at a specific company (Onyx Path) and the more toxic and extreme purist aspects of the World of Darkness fanbase that happen to rule the roost in Onyx Path's circles.

Basically, I just want to embrace the "edgy" and reject the "personal horror" since I play games to have fun. And despite what Kelly Steele at Onyx Path may say, wanting to have fun is NOT a sign of immaturity. Tabletop gaming is a hobby, it's something you do for fun.

Hating fun does not mean that someone is "grown up", it just means they're pretentious, bitter, and insufferable. Especially in something as trivial as gaming.

Life's too short to make hobbies super-serious. Games and other hobbies are meant as a break from the serious.
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A whole lot of that's responding to stuff I didn't say or imply. I never implied you're a meat head or that fun is bad; I don't know why you feel like I did.

I also don't think CoD is very punk outside of, like, Deviant, and to an extent Geist, Hunter and sometimes Changeling. So this whole conversation has a kooky axiom already.

I think you'd have a better time here if you took a moment before posting and considered if you're not reacting unintentionally to what other people have said or made you feel before.
 
mothematics said:
A whole lot of that's responding to stuff I didn't say or imply. I never implied you're a meat head or that fun is bad; I don't know why you feel like I did.

I also don't think CoD is very punk outside of, like, Deviant, and to an extent Geist, Hunter and sometimes Changeling. So this whole conversation has a kooky axiom already.

I think you'd have a better time here if you took a moment before posting and considered if you're not reacting unintentionally to what other people have said or made you feel before.
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Well, I apologize for my mistake. I assume "meathead" was a typo for "metalhead" then. My bad for jumping the gun.

Admittedly, I was not accusing you of saying that fun is bad. That was more of a reaction to Kelly Steele's statements on another site. There's a reason why I ended up deleting most of my game PDF's back in June and the Onyx Path Forums crew were part of it.

Spring and Summer of 2019 were a bad time in my life and I was suffering from intense depression and self-loathing during that time. I don't want to go into any further details other than it while the situation itself had to do with real life and was unrelated to Onyx Path, there were several people on the forums who were actively making it worse and Steele was among them.

So I basically made a post on there that I knew would get my account nuked.

Fortunately, I've started a long recovery and I've made progress in my real life. I think I'm ready to get into the gaming scene proper once again. It could help me feel a lot better, and I really do need to let go of the past. It is difficult though.

@mothematics I'm sorry for coming across as lashing out at you and spilling my guts over old off-site drama.
 
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Paulie Romanov said:
Well, I apologize for my mistake. I assume "meathead" was a typo for "metalhead" then. My bad for jumping the gun.

Admittedly, I was not accusing you of saying that fun is bad. That was more of a reaction to Kelly Steele's statements on another site. There's a reason why I ended up deleting most of my game PDF's back in June and the Onyx Path Forums crew were part of it.

Spring and Summer of 2019 were a bad time in my life and I was suffering from intense depression and self-loathing during that time. I don't want to go into any further details other than it while the situation itself had to do with real life and was unrelated to Onyx Path, there were several people on the forums who were actively making it worse and Steele was among them.

So I basically made a post on there that I knew would get my account nuked.

Fortunately, I've started a long recovery and I've made progress in my real life. I think I'm ready to get into the gaming scene proper once again. It could help me feel a lot better, and I really do need to let go of the past. It is difficult though.

@mothematics I'm sorry for coming across as lashing out at you and spilling my guts over old off-site drama.
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Oh, my bad. I missed the autocorrect from my phone. I'm glad you're doing better though! Recovery's slow and hard, I know. I hope you can get back into the games without too much turbulence.
 
Paulie Romanov said:
I'd appreciate not being called a meathead just because I prefer metal to punk, and part of why I dislike punk is because it's so overly politicized and rife with political extremism.

Politics between vampire covenants and changeling courts are more than welcome at the game table, but given the polarized world we live in today, I want to keep real-world politics away from the game as much as I can.
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This is exactly the same argument that has been made in video gaming, and it's equally flawed when directed towards pen-and-paper as it it does towards video games. In fact, it's more so, because video games at least can be theoretically passively consumed in a way intended by the designer with no active agency from the player, but there's no such possibility in an RPG. And we see that in your own previously expressed sentiments. Your declaration that the Lancea et Sanctum and the Invictus are pure evil and that you run with the Carthians and the Circle as the "good guys" is an incredibly political choice of yours, where you're imposing your own political beliefs onto the existing game setting.

Both the Mage games have been nothing if not intensely political in a real world context. The same applies to Vampire; the Carthian/Invictus and Anarch/Camarilla divides and where people naturally fall are loaded with real world politics very, very thinly dressed up in metaphor. Wraith is political; both Demons are political; both Werewolves are very political (sure, Apocalypse's politics may vary between incoherent, abominable, and "how cute that they thought that in the 90s", but we only need to look at Shadows of the UK, which is the best setting thing for Forsaken by a loooooooooong way, to see how political Forsaken is). The World of Darkness gamelines (both old and new) are built on bringing real life politics into your RPGs, because that's what you get when you run urban fantasy. Urban fantasy is basically always political, and when it thinks it's being apolitical, it's just rendering the author's own thoughts into the world.

Honestly, to touch on the Forsaken thing for the moment, I would argue that to run Forsaken in the modern day and age and not touch on Brexit/Trump, on social media culture and on fear-mongering journalism, on partisan divides and suchlike is not only wasting what Forsaken was made to run, but it's also in a very real sense no longer Forsaken. The Shadow was made to hold a dark mirror up to reality and reify it in animstic form; if you reject the dark animism of Forsaken and don't have the UK's Shadow be a factionalised blast zone where hordes of fear-spirits are gluttoning on the actions of the government and on the tabloid press, why play Forsaken?
 
I have been having fun brainstorming the least fortunate Deviants possible. Currently I'm fond of a devoted with healing touch five with involuntary stimulus(being touched) ,sacred flesh(Carapace 5) with power buildup, anomalous biology(ageless, breathless,hungerless,tireless) with Silence, and Regeneration 5 with missing limb 4 and the scar free dot. Thoughts?
 
EarthScorpion said:
This is exactly the same argument that has been made in video gaming, and it's equally flawed when directed towards pen-and-paper as it it does towards video games. In fact, it's more so, because video games at least can be theoretically passively consumed in a way intended by the designer with no active agency from the player, but there's no such possibility in an RPG. And we see that in your own previously expressed sentiments. Your declaration that the Lancea et Sanctum and the Invictus are pure evil and that you run with the Carthians and the Circle as the "good guys" is an incredibly political choice of yours, where you're imposing your own political beliefs onto the existing game setting.

Both the Mage games have been nothing if not intensely political in a real world context. The same applies to Vampire; the Carthian/Invictus and Anarch/Camarilla divides and where people naturally fall are loaded with real world politics very, very thinly dressed up in metaphor. Wraith is political; both Demons are political; both Werewolves are very political (sure, Apocalypse's politics may vary between incoherent, abominable, and "how cute that they thought that in the 90s", but we only need to look at Shadows of the UK, which is the best setting thing for Forsaken by a loooooooooong way, to see how political Forsaken is). The World of Darkness gamelines (both old and new) are built on bringing real life politics into your RPGs, because that's what you get when you run urban fantasy. Urban fantasy is basically always political, and when it thinks it's being apolitical, it's just rendering the author's own thoughts into the world.

Honestly, to touch on the Forsaken thing for the moment, I would argue that to run Forsaken in the modern day and age and not touch on Brexit/Trump, on social media culture and on fear-mongering journalism, on partisan divides and suchlike is not only wasting what Forsaken was made to run, but it's also in a very real sense no longer Forsaken. The Shadow was made to hold a dark mirror up to reality and reify it in animstic form; if you reject the dark animism of Forsaken and don't have the UK's Shadow be a factionalised blast zone where hordes of fear-spirits are gluttoning on the actions of the government and on the tabloid press, why play Forsaken?
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I disagree with that sentiment, and I think you might have misunderstood what I was saying and I'm sorry if my wording was too ambiguous or easily misconstrued.

When I talk about "keeping real-world politics" away from the game, I'm not talking about the exclusion of real world history or current events. If anything, including elements from the local news or from history can help build the setting of a game if done right.

I'm talking about trying to use games to push an agenda. Having one's own personal beliefs inform certain details of the setting is perfectly fine, but nobody plays a game to be preached at, y'know?

I play RPG's to get away from that kind of stuff, y'know? I'm all for conflict between the Invictus and Carthians but when I'm running a game, the last thing I want to talk about is the conflicts between the Republicans and the Democrats or similar hot-button debates.
 
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grommile said:
Now I'm wondering what kind of metal you like, but that would be off-topic for this thread :)
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I like traditional metal, power metal, thrash metal, and black metal (I'm aware of the irony, given my disdain of punk)

To get back on topic, I'm trying to think of a good setting for my upcoming Halloween game, a crossover of Requiem 1E and Lost 1E.
 
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EarthScorpion said:
The Shadow was made to hold a dark mirror up to reality and reify it in animstic form; if you reject the dark animism of Forsaken and don't have the UK's Shadow be a factionalised blast zone where hordes of fear-spirits are gluttoning on the actions of the government and on the tabloid press, why play Forsaken?
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Hot wolfmen/women?
 
Yeah the new Geist is top fucking quality and if anyone wants to run a game in it notify me please.
 
grommile said:
DC seems like a recipe for the things you want to avoid.
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True, I've mainly been considering it as a possibility because of the landmarks and the fact that I've been to Washington DC multiple times. Only been to New Orleans once, and never been in New York City proper. Although I've been all over New York State and I've spent time in parts of New Jersey and New York State that were part of the NYC metro area, I've never actually set foot in the Five Boroughs.
 
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