I'm really hoping Deviant's Web of Pain system is designed in such a way that it can be used to crossover all these bugaboos hiding in the shadows... If perhaps, watered down, crossover friendly versions instead of the meant-to-be-protagonist versions.
 
I'm really hoping Deviant's Web of Pain system is designed in such a way that it can be used to crossover all these bugaboos hiding in the shadows... If perhaps, watered down, crossover friendly versions instead of the meant-to-be-protagonist versions.
..I mean. The Ordo seem like exactly the type of people to make Deviants, at least. So, we got vampires at least.
 
I'm really hoping Deviant's Web of Pain system is designed in such a way that it can be used to crossover all these bugaboos hiding in the shadows... If perhaps, watered down, crossover friendly versions instead of the meant-to-be-protagonist versions.

From dev chatter, that's actually a goal. More detailed, player-facing rules will be in the Devoted book, but yeah, this is very much meant to be strapped to player conspiracies too.
 
Yeah, as a general rule in nWoD there's no massive top-down conspiracy enforcing a party line and what massive conspiracies there are a. still tend to be pretty limited in the slice of the world they can actually engage with (since they're multinational corporations or shadowy government agencies or something that's neither but kinda wearing the skin of both vs Vampire World Government) and b. dealing with deliberately watered down versions of the other splats that they can meaningfully engage with instead of, like, "the Changeling lunges across a threshold and pops into the Hedge and is five states away by dawn"/"the werewolf pack goes furry warframe on your ass"/"the Mage makes your liver explode last Saturday" (moderate exaggerations for illustration, but on the whole I'm pretty positive of the idea of rewriting versions of the other PC lines that are explicitly meant to function as antagonists, threats, and uneasy allies at best for Hunters, but that's sort of a tangent).

Yep. Hence why, for example, the sorcerers in In The Rose Garden that you and the other PCs interact with are mostly just using Contracts - or rotes made to be Contract-esque.

I wouldn't put you up against real mages. That would be cruel and mean, no matter how much Bart would want a Thrysus boyfriend. :V
 
Alternatively, the Mage leaves a note in your gun safe telling you the colour of your underpants, what you had for dinner last Saturday, and that your gun has been turned into chocolate.
But does the chocolate gun works anyway? Because that makes things really different based on the answer.
 
So, I found my old hand-written notes for converting Vampire: The Requiem to Big Eyes Small Mouth and I've got to admit, I have yet to play-test those rules conversions.

Maybe I should try to do that in the near future?
 
So, I found my old hand-written notes for converting Vampire: The Requiem to Big Eyes Small Mouth and I've got to admit, I have yet to play-test those rules conversions.

Maybe I should try to do that in the near future?
So you're planning on running a game on a system and setting that's literally the antithesis of one another. Sure go for it I'm really looking forward to what you have in store.
 
So you're planning on running a game on a system and setting that's literally the antithesis of one another. Sure go for it I'm really looking forward to what you have in store.

I will go for it, thank you very much.

And I don't see BESM and Vampire being completely antithetical to each other, at least if you're playing on the lower power end of BESM's rules.

Then again, I never cared for "personal horror", was always more of an unironic fan of "Trenchcoats & Katanas/Supers With Fangs" Vampire games, but that's just me and how I roll. Not sure if you knew that, but it's fine if you didn't.

I'm kind of infamous for it here, unfortunately. But I don't want to go down that particular rabbit hole and I don't think anyone else here does either.

To each their own, I suppose.
 
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I will go for it, thank you very much.

And I don't see BESM and Vampire being completely antithetical to each other, at least if you're playing on the lower power end of BESM's rules.

Then again, I never cared for "personal horror", was always more of an unironic fan of "Trenchcoats & Katanas/Supers With Fangs" Vampire games, but that's just me and how I roll. Not sure if you knew that, but it's fine if you didn't.

I'm kind of infamous for it here, unfortunately. But I don't want to go down that particular rabbit hole and I don't think anyone else here does either.

To each their own, I suppose.
Don't get me wrong. I really do want to see the what you do with the world of darkness setting.

Still I wonder how the splat would be like if they are animefied.
 
Yeah, as a general rule in nWoD there's no massive top-down conspiracy enforcing a party line and what massive conspiracies there are a. still tend to be pretty limited in the slice of the world they can actually engage with (since they're multinational corporations or shadowy government agencies or something that's neither but kinda wearing the skin of both vs Vampire World Government) and b. dealing with deliberately watered down versions of the other splats that they can meaningfully engage with instead of, like, "the Changeling lunges across a threshold and pops into the Hedge and is five states away by dawn"/"the werewolf pack goes furry warframe on your ass"/"the Mage makes your liver explode last Saturday" (moderate exaggerations for illustration, but on the whole I'm pretty positive of the idea of rewriting versions of the other PC lines that are explicitly meant to function as antagonists, threats, and uneasy allies at best for Hunters, but that's sort of a tangent).

Everything is, generally speaking, pretty fragmented afaik. The highest authority in Vampire Land is the Prince fr'ex, the ruler of a single city (sometimes not even that), and they don't have the resources or power or incentives, necessarily, to run a perfect clean up operation. Mages are concerned about not being seen but that's because Paradox is a bitch and sometimes it brings brainspiders, and it's notable that this barrier is pretty malleable and movable depending on how motivated (or moral) you are. Changeling Courts care more about hiding from their Keepers than about hiding from humans. And so on.

I like it tbh. It's less Sunnydale on steroids imo and more...in nWoD there's a whole different world waiting there in the shadows and the depths and the lonely corners of the Earth. It's there and once you see it it sees you and it's so, so easy for even normal people to fall through the cracks. To be lost in it and never find your way back. It's less Enforced Dogma and more, like you said, many people, maybe even most people, have seen something that doesn't quite make sense. That they've uneasily dismissed and tried to forget but still think about sometimes, when they're alone in the dark.

And I love that mood really.
The way that higher tier organizations, like mage orders, are written implies the existence of these huge sprawling communities of hundreds, thousands, etc, of members. It doesn't make a lot of sense that tons of these communities, organized criminal syndicates if we're being honest, across the world could be kept secret for long. Making the population deliberately ignore the truth, if not outright unable to see or remember it, makes it rather unbelievable to me that any of the monsters worry about revealing their existence and activities except insofar as them being literally criminals the majority of the time.

V5 takes a completely different tact by using metaplot to change the status quo to a nWoD-esque regional isolation and making vampires have to worry about the FBI's vampire hunting division.

My brain is tired of trying to make sense of things. The mood swings I currently experience aren't helping.

I will go for it, thank you very much.

And I don't see BESM and Vampire being completely antithetical to each other, at least if you're playing on the lower power end of BESM's rules.

Then again, I never cared for "personal horror", was always more of an unironic fan of "Trenchcoats & Katanas/Supers With Fangs" Vampire games, but that's just me and how I roll. Not sure if you knew that, but it's fine if you didn't.

I'm kind of infamous for it here, unfortunately. But I don't want to go down that particular rabbit hole and I don't think anyone else here does either.

To each their own, I suppose.
I sometimes have a craving for b-movie vampires myself. There are tons of elements in World of Darkness that I either never cared for or thought should have been redesigned.
 
The way that higher tier organizations, like mage orders, are written implies the existence of these huge sprawling communities of hundreds, thousands, etc, of members. It doesn't make a lot of sense that tons of these communities, organized criminal syndicates if we're being honest, across the world could be kept secret for long. Making the population deliberately ignore the truth, if not outright unable to see or remember it, makes it rather unbelievable to me that any of the monsters worry about revealing their existence and activities except insofar as them being literally criminals the majority of the time.

V5 takes a completely different tact by using metaplot to change the status quo to a nWoD-esque regional isolation and making vampires have to worry about the FBI's vampire hunting division.

My brain is tired of trying to make sense of things. The mood swings I currently experience aren't helping.

I feel like you're kind of ignoring the meat and bones of what I said while you pick at a bit of, like, gristle off to the side? People don't make eyecontact with the shit in the shadows because people don't have any way to contextualize it or give it any form save an ichoate sense of, like, unease and fear. It's a threat to their World As They Understand It, so they put their head down and keep walking and try not to think about it. Yeah I guess if everyone compared notes people would start figuring shit out (notably, this is the gensis of a fair number of Hunter compacts and conspiracies, such as the Union) but by and large people generally don't. They ignore it, they get drunk, and they don't think about the time they woke up as a kid in front of the TV and an emergency broadcast was playing on a loop, announcing that the nukes had fallen and the worms were rising.

nWoD in general is pretty upfront too that it takes place is not-actually-our-world. It's our world but more gothic. The darkness runs deeper, the shadows are longer, there's a lot more gargoyles on everything. First and foremost the setting exists to enable that, takes that as a fundamental conceit. If you're throwing that out then I think you're inherently going to have a hard time really engaging with a lot of the gamelines themselves. Like you get what I'm saying yeah? If the entry pitch of the whole setting is "in a world much like ours, monsters fight for supremacy in the shadows-" and it gets like that far before you go "I can't really accept this and think it makes the whole thing unbelievable" then...I mean yeah.

I dunno what you're expecting honestly. And there's no sin if urban fantasy doesn't do it for you, but it kinda comes across as if you're taking issue with urban fantasy for...being urban fantasy.

Beyond that, re: supernaturals wanting to stay concealed. Pretty much every PC splat has an antagonist that they're principally hiding from and shadowboxing with. Changelings are hiding primarily from their Keepers and the fucked up things that crawl out of deepest faerie. Werewolves are hiding from hostile spirits and the Pure. Mages from Banishers and the Seers. Geists from Reapers. And so on.

It kind of naturally follows that "if I'm in a position where the police and public can figure out what I'm doing, then the Seers/Gentry/Etc Etc have definitely figured it out before them, and the police could probably ruin my day but the Reapers/Pure/etc etc will fuck me up on my own terms".
 
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nWoD in general is pretty upfront too that it takes place is not-actually-our-world. It's our world but more gothic. The darkness runs deeper, the shadows are longer, there's a lot more gargoyles on everything. First and foremost the setting exists to enable that, takes that as a fundamental conceit. If you're throwing that out then I think you're inherently going to have a hard time really engaging with a lot of the gamelines themselves. Like you get what I'm saying yeah? If the entry pitch of the whole setting is "in a world much like ours, monsters fight for supremacy in the shadows-" and it gets like that far before you go "I can't really accept this and think it makes the whole thing unbelievable" then...I mean yeah.

I dunno what you're expecting honestly. And there's no sin if urban fantasy doesn't do it for you, but it kinda comes across as if you're taking issue with urban fantasy for...being urban fantasy.
That's not the definition of urban fantasy and I don't have a problem with other urban fantasy. I have a problem with people constantly ignoring the logistics involved in running global conspiracies that make them impossible to keep secret. If you add some magical solution to ignore logistics, then that raises a new problem of why it isn't used in other circumstances.

Look at the Lost Girl TV show. It is explained early on that the light and dark sides maintain a permanent truce, as otherwise civilization and society as we know it wouldn't exist. Despite that, both sides still deal with monsters of the week that they need the protagonist to deal with. (There's a ton of other complexity and inconsistency but that's outside the scope of this post.)

The easy solution is that there aren't global conspiracies and that the paranormal is rare enough that the overwhelming majority of people go through life without ever once noticing anything strange. But that's just what I thought off the top of my head this moment.
 
hat's not the definition of urban fantasy and I don't have a problem with other urban fantasy. I have a problem with people constantly ignoring the logistics involved in running global conspiracies that make them impossible to keep secret. If you add some magical solution to ignore logistics, then that raises a new problem of why it isn't used in other circumstances.

"I'm not refusing to engage with the central conceits of the genre, I just think your entire concept of what the genre is is wrong and it should definitely be more like what I think it should be."

C'mon man...if you're not gonna, like, extend at least a bit of good faith to people trying to explain why-stuff-works-for-them + why-this-is-structured-the-way-it-is then eventually people are just gonna not engage you. You're not being super clever about this you're kinda just doing things CinemaSins-style.
 
I mean, nWoD isn't the kind of a system that is interested in logistics or staying extremely close to realism in the first place. It's not the main focus here; it's irrelevant.
 
I mean, nWoD isn't the kind of a system that is interested in logistics or staying extremely close to realism in the first place. It's not the main focus here; it's irrelevant.

Damnation City -which I love and strongly suggest prospective ST's should read, it's hugely helpful imo- straight up tells you in pretty much exact language "it's more important to be evocative than factually accurate, if you're ever forced to choose, choose the former". nWoD as a whole leans strongly on...mood and tone and aesthetic, and isn't terribly interested in the underlying practical logistics save as they generate conflict within a given line. Ie. Vampires needing feeding grounds, Mages searching for Mysteries, etc. It's not interesting in interrogating or dissecting the conceit of "supernatural conspiracies exist and Do Things", it kind of just takes it for granted that that's step one and pretty much everyone is along for the ride. The emphasis is on "those things these conspiracies Do" which is, tbh, where most of the interesting bits are.
 
"I'm not refusing to engage with the central conceits of the genre, I just think your entire concept of what the genre is is wrong and it should definitely be more like what I think it should be."

C'mon man...if you're not gonna, like, extend at least a bit of good faith to people trying to explain why-stuff-works-for-them + why-this-is-structured-the-way-it-is then eventually people are just gonna not engage you. You're not being super clever about this you're kinda just doing things CinemaSins-style.
Damnation City -which I love and strongly suggest prospective ST's should read, it's hugely helpful imo- straight up tells you in pretty much exact language "it's more important to be evocative than factually accurate, if you're ever forced to choose, choose the former". nWoD as a whole leans strongly on...mood and tone and aesthetic, and isn't terribly interested in the underlying practical logistics save as they generate conflict within a given line. Ie. Vampires needing feeding grounds, Mages searching for Mysteries, etc. It's not interesting in interrogating or dissecting the conceit of "supernatural conspiracies exist and Do Things", it kind of just takes it for granted that that's step one and pretty much everyone is along for the ride. The emphasis is on "those things these conspiracies Do" which is, tbh, where most of the interesting bits are.
I literally have depression right now, so please give me a break on all the "your opinions are always wrong and my opinions are objective reality" spiel. I get that all the time and it only makes me more misanthropic.

If you want the definition of urban fantasy, then TVtropes has it covered: Urban Fantasy - TV Tropes

I was specifically criticizing this trope, which is independent of urban fantasy: No Delays for the Wicked - TV Tropes

I like horror movies and soap opera, not globe-spanning ninja clans. I know World of Darkness is absolutely not for me in any way, shape, or form, but it's literally the only urban fantasy game that anybody cares to talks about.

I'm not quite ready to off myself for that inconvenience, but I really want to die sometime soon.
 
The Masquerade's actually another flaw with Beast. At least the vampires have quasi-organized societies with rules about keeping hidden (to avoid being burned at the stake when the sun comes up) and the mages have paradox. Beast didn't seem to have as much reason not to reveal you're supernatural (and just conceal the nastier bits, which is a lot easier when you lack traditional vampire weaknesses).
 
The Masquerade's actually another flaw with Beast. At least the vampires have quasi-organized societies with rules about keeping hidden (to avoid being burned at the stake when the sun comes up) and the mages have paradox. Beast didn't seem to have as much reason not to reveal you're supernatural (and just conceal the nastier bits, which is a lot easier when you lack traditional vampire weaknesses).
Is it though? I was under the impression that beasts hunt primarily on the astral plane, chimerical reality or whatever it was supposed to be. Without ESP you wouldn't be able to even see what they were doing as anything other than two crazy people ranting at each other, even assuming they were in physical proximity.

When all is said and done, all of the lore is arbitrary. Every aspect of it is arbitrary. Conspiracies or lack thereof are arbitrary.

As much as I might like to claim there are flaws with maintaining a masquerade of normality over a globe-spanning conspiracy, that's just my arbitrary opinion. I haven't actually spent weeks researching the subject and written a college paper on the feasibility of concealing a conspiracy with magic of arbitrary capability.

I only assume that, since humans can't do it and the monsters are essentially scumbag humans with magic that doesn't really help them all that much, that the monsters couldn't pull it off effectively without Fate, God, the writers, or whatever protecting them.
 
Is it though? I was under the impression that beasts hunt primarily on the astral plane, chimerical reality or whatever it was supposed to be. Without ESP you wouldn't be able to even see what they were doing as anything other than two crazy people ranting at each other, even assuming they were in physical proximity.
The issue is that while the actual Beast erupting from its mortal host to rip people apart isn't visible to normal people, they instead would see it as people being burned/crushed/ripped apart by an invisible force, seemingly centered on said host. Ditto with most of their other powers; the cause is invisible, but the effect isn't. The only "stealthy" powers they have are things like "I glare at someone and they immediately start gibbering and screaming and pissing themselves in fear."

Likewise, when they let their Horror feast on people through the collective unconscious, that manifests as a whole lot of people in the same general area having the same nightmare about the same eldritch abomination. The reasons Heroes seldom have trouble rounding up vigilante mobs to help them is that by the time a Beast's established itself enough for a Hero to notice them, the townsfolk are already aware that something is wrong, even if they can't put their finger on any specifics of that wrongness.
 
I literally have depression right now, so please give me a break on all the "your opinions are always wrong and my opinions are objective reality" spiel. I get that all the time and it only makes me more misanthropic.

bruh this is the wrong site to try to pull the "don't yell at me i have depression" card. ;v

Like. If you're going to react to any attempt at...anything, even genuinely pretty mild/gentle disagreement and explanation with a hard shut down "disagreeing with me just makes me more unhappy" then it genuinely raises the question of what you're hoping to get here? You don't like the gamelines. You don't like the setting. You resent people explaining shit about the setting or gamelines to you. You resent having to talk about any of it and keep trying to obliquely cudgel it into Something You Want It To Be. And you're building your whole position out of bits you snapped off of TVT (which is an incredibly less-than-useful source to use for, honestly, anything but as an ad hoc wikipedia maybe) and sneering at the concept of, like, setting conceits and I'm genuinely perplexed at what you want out of this thread?

Besides people to agree with you that Yes NWoD Is Bad And Dumb?
 
. And you're building your whole position out of bits you snapped off of TVT (which is an incredibly less-than-useful source to use for, honestly, anything but as an ad hoc wikipedia maybe)
look it has an okay page on zoroastrianism that was better than the one on the wiki until i went on an editing spree with another zoroastrian
 
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