So I'm perhaps GMing at a LGBT convention (Queervention yeah!) and the organizers have asked the games be relevant to LGBT thematics. It's not an obligation but would be better.

I'm currently hesitating between Promethean, Changeling and Mage. Thoughts?

Princess: The Hopeful

I mean, it's the Magical Girl genre, so you're obviously going to have lots of lesbians by definition. :V

Seriously though:
- A Noble's tranformed form is always in the image of their idealized self, similar to a Mage's astral form from what people have said over the last few pages, so a Transgender Noble's transformation is very very likely of their true gender. Possibly a tg-in-denial Noble's transformation could serve as vehicle to either broaden their Horizon and introduce them to a gender identity that they previously would never have imagined having, or more directly force them into some serious introspection what their idealized self being of their self-perceived opposite gender actually says about their true feelings that they're in denial about.
- Addressing bigotry and oppression, and fostering a community of tolerance and mutual respect, is in fact one of the primary intended activities of the gameline. At the same time, one of the primary themes of the game is that no matter how bleak and frustrating a situation looks, there is always hope for a better tomorrow; The players have the power, and they have the mandate, to go forth and make the world a better place, and while it may not be easy, or it may not be a perfect victory, they can and will make a difference.
Possible antagonists range from plain normal people who are just being shitty because of human nature, to misguided idealistic crusaders who genuinely think that they're doing the right thing (other Nobles, among others), to normally innocent humans who are infected by corruption to be more bigoted and violent than they'd normally ever be of their own free will but can be cured, to irredeemable inhuman monsters that can be beat on for some guilt-free power-fantasy catharsis, depending on the exact themes and mood you want for the game.

(Disclaimer: I'm not actually immersed in the subject matter to tell which of the previous themes and antagonists would most enrich a game, or if any might produce some rather questionable and presumptuos thematics; Use your own judgement. Still, fairly confident you will find something to fit your need.)
 
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I wonder if the last few points could be used to create the lamest vampire clan.
I'm sorry, even vampires that melt on contact with soap have more dignity than the Players.

For reference, the Players are a bloodline so garbage that the character creation advises you to be Social-focused, pretty (but not too pretty), and have your Backgrounds be diverse and low-value to represent your character drifting around and never putting in the effort to actually be good at anything or make real solid connections.

Mechanically, they're Mekhet that have Majesty as a favored Discipline - which then goes to shit, because their bloodline weakness is that the more they use Majesty* on someone, the less effective it gets, so that they have to keep attracting new groupies (and yes, most Players want groupies) as the old ones see through the facade of supernatural cool and spot the talentless hack hiding underneath. Even their Vinculums crap out after a few months!

Their founder was a total goober (whose name was John Milford - or Melford, or possibly Melton; accounts differ due to him preferring to call himself "Count Yanosh Maldor") who skulked around the 50's and 60's Hollywood scene dressed in an opera cape and doing a bad Lugosi impression to try and get attention from minor Tinseltown figures - and ultimately got the Prince of LA to declare a blood hunt on him when he tried to break the Masquerade (not for the first time) so he could be "technical advisor" for the film Blacula.

You will never suck as much as the Players, no matter hwo hard you try.


* As well as Animalism, Auspex, Dominate, Majesty, Nightmare, and Obfuscate, along with any other vampire power they pick up that involves screwing with the subject's mind to make them perceive the Player as something they aren't. Essentially, they're doomed to end up firing off a vampire power and having the SFX budget crap out, so they just end up making a goofy face instead of using Monstrous Countenance, or try to impersonate a VIP at a club with The Familiar Stranger and get pummeled by the bouncers.
 
You know, I know that everyone knows, but today for some reason my brain decided to remind me that the "Ancient Lands Pentalogy" is the worst part of a mixed bag book, and the introduction to the Free Council that basically made it so that I couldn't possibly, under any circumstances, take them seriously after that.
 
You know, I know that everyone knows, but today for some reason my brain decided to remind me that the "Ancient Lands Pentalogy" is the worst part of a mixed bag book, and the introduction to the Free Council that basically made it so that I couldn't possibly, under any circumstances, take them seriously after that.

Thinking upon that I remember it's not the fantasy stuff I disliked about this one, on the contrary I kinda liked the story.

It's just it shows the Free Council as blatantly opposed to the other Orders, completely missing the point of them in their diatribes. I mean the guys who believe that magic is alive, represented by a Lich? The Silver Ladder as Ventrue wanabee?

While even 2e Free Council is still an useless order, it seems at least not as antagonistic to the others Orders as its first edition was.
 
Thinking upon that I remember it's not the fantasy stuff I disliked about this one, on the contrary I kinda liked the story.

It's just it shows the Free Council as blatantly opposed to the other Orders, completely missing the point of them in their diatribes. I mean the guys who believe that magic is alive, represented by a Lich? The Silver Ladder as Ventrue wanabee?

While even 2e Free Council is still an useless order, it seems at least not as antagonistic to the others Orders as its first edition was.

There's also the Book Wanking, where this one book can totally Awaken people sometimes or something.

I wonder what people who Awaken upon reading the book think when they learn that the Silver Ladder is not in fact the bad guy, and that this whole other faction exists that the author doesn't even bother to mention (if I recall correctly) called the SEERS OF THE THRONE.

You know, just a minor faction that is nothing as great of an enemy as those damn Arrows.
 
I wonder what people who Awaken upon reading the book think when they learn that the Silver Ladder is not in fact the bad guy, and that this whole other faction exists that the author doesn't even bother to mention (if I recall correctly) called the SEERS OF THE THRONE.

You know, just a minor faction that is nothing as great of an enemy as those damn Arrows.
....so, Awakens, realises that they are fighting for the bad guys this entire time, and possible mucked things up?
 
They probably wouldn't wind up joining the Seers if that is what you mean, because people who Awaken by reading this book are more pure and perfect and kind and just and good than other, normal Awakenings, and thus would never do something like that!

They even get a fucking Merit out of it.
 
Merit: Ancient Lands Awakening (••••) Prerequisites: Charity or Hope Virtue.

This Merit can be taken only at character creation. Effect: Your character underwent an Awakening spurred on by one of the grimoiremanuscripts of The Ancient Lands Pentalogy. All your beginning rotes must be chosen from the grimoire-manuscript that triggered that Awakening. You do gain 3 additional dots of beginning rotes, however. Additionally, the grimoire-manuscripts often find their way to those who have experienced Ancient Lands Awakenings. Generally speaking, the destiny of the books will arrange for them to come into the hands of those who were Awakened by one of them when they gain an additional dot of Gnosis.

Once play begins, Storytellers are encouraged to arrange for other manuscripts to coincidentally come into the hands of characters with this Merit every time such characters increase their Gnosis by 1 dot. Characters with this Merit pay 1 less Experience point to learn rotes from The Ancient Lands Pentalogy grimoire-manuscripts.

Finally, because all who are Awakened by these books seem to possess the same generosity and desire to help others that characterize both Lenore and the protagonist Soter, any mage who underwent an Ancient Lands Awakening who fulfills his Virtue by helping Sleepers using his magic also gains a point of Mana in addition to recovering all his Willpower.

*******

 
....its brainwashing...isn't it?

Nope! It's not meant to be, except in the vague way that any presentation of information is supposed to be brainwashing. The book is just that special and amazing and wonderful, and so are all the people who love it and especially the Free Council.

Edit: Like, it being an evil brainwashing book would be amusing, but the entry plays it painfully, horribly, disgustingly straight. Like, the person who wrote it both hadn't heard of the Seers of the Throne, apparently, but also went out of the way to make everything play so that it was clear that the Free Council was right, good, and just. It even has a bunch of ineffectual, 'The Orders get their panties in a twist' parts, just to show that the Diamond Orders have no real response to the mad truths the author was laying down.
 
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To be fair the diatribes are somewhat justified in-universe as the thing was written by the Sleepwalker son of a mage who left the Guardians of the Veil for the Free Council and thus is liable to misrepresent the others Orders.

Which begs the question: Since when Sleepwalkers can inscribe Grimoires or why would you inscribe Rotes in the manuscripts of the shitty fantasy story your son wrote?
 
To be fair the diatribes are somewhat justified in-universe as the thing was written by the Sleepwalker son of a mage who left the Guardians of the Veil for the Free Council and thus is liable to misrepresent the others Orders.

Which begs the question: Since when Sleepwalkers can inscribe Grimoires or why would you inscribe Rotes in the manuscripts of the shitty fantasy story your son wrote?

That's just one of the many questions.

...why would someone leave the GOTV for the Free Council? No, that's not a, "Guardians are so amazing and great and special and perfect."

It's a few things: first, becoming a Guardian involves going through an insane number of tests. Read about the Grey and Crimson veils sometime.

All in all, 25% of Mages don't even make it to Status 1, who try to become Guardians.

It means that the people who do are the ones who are dedicated and can hack it.

Second, nobody trusts former Guardians. When a Guardian does leave their Order, it's usually more from exhaustion (theirs is a hard life, and sometimes a spy wants to come in from the cold) than, "I hate the GOTV, they should die in a fire" because again, devotion and training. No Order wants to incorporate a Guardian into their midst because they suspect (maybe even rightly) that he or she is just a spy. So they most often become Apostates.

And this goes double and triple for the Free Council.

The Free Council *hates* the Guardians, or at least is probably the least likely one to convert, or be converted to.

I can't remember what the story was of why she actually left and how, but it probably wasn't as nuanced and interesting as anything in the GOTV Order book.
 
That's just one of the many questions.

...why would someone leave the GOTV for the Free Council? No, that's not a, "Guardians are so amazing and great and special and perfect."

It's a few things: first, becoming a Guardian involves going through an insane number of tests. Read about the Grey and Crimson veils sometime.

All in all, 25% of Mages don't even make it to Status 1, who try to become Guardians.

It means that the people who do are the ones who are dedicated and can hack it.

Second, nobody trusts former Guardians. When a Guardian does leave their Order, it's usually more from exhaustion (theirs is a hard life, and sometimes a spy wants to come in from the cold) than, "I hate the GOTV, they should die in a fire" because again, devotion and training. No Order wants to incorporate a Guardian into their midst because they suspect (maybe even rightly) that he or she is just a spy. So they most often become Apostates.

And this goes double and triple for the Free Council.

The Free Council *hates* the Guardians, or at least is probably the least likely one to convert, or be converted to.

I can't remember what the story was of why she actually left and how, but it probably wasn't as nuanced and interesting as anything in the GOTV Order book.


Best guess would be true believer then. The Free Council actually convinced them. People can go from pretty much any belief, to pretty much any other, under the right circumstances. Weird things happen. Like that F.B.I. officer who married into ISIS.
 
Best guess would be true believer then. The Free Council actually convinced them. People can go from pretty much any belief, to pretty much any other, under the right circumstances. Weird things happen. Like that F.B.I. officer who married into ISIS.

I guess it's possible, but it's really weird and just seems to increase the, "I wrote this with one hand around a piece of technology shaped like a dick" factor.
 
They probably wouldn't wind up joining the Seers if that is what you mean, because people who Awaken by reading this book are more pure and perfect and kind and just and good than other, normal Awakenings, and thus would never do something like that!

They even get a fucking Merit out of it.

And then we learn that the Ancient Lands Pentology is really just the first five books of Harry Potter with the serial numbers filed off.
 
I know this is old as hell, but I might as well explain my opinions on the Null Mysteriis:

"The compact comprises a large bulk of rational, science-minded or academic folk: biologists, chemists, physicists, and the like. In recent years, however, the compact has seen a growth of pseudoscientifc efforts amongst its hunters. We'll talk more about that shortly, but for the moment it bears examining how hunters get from science to pseudoscience (and beyond).
Scientists seek rational explanations that are proven through rigorous testing. The scientifc method is everything. Success is inevitable, even in small ways: vampire blood looks a certain way under a microscope, or electricity has reproducible effects on reanimated human tissue.
Problem is, the World of Darkness is home to all manner of unexplainable horrors, and these horrors consistently evade rational explanation. The truly diligent don't take that as a failure, and continue to pursue explanations.
Some, though, aren't truly diligent. It doesn't help that studying the horrors of the World of Darkness means a life besieged by… well, horror. That damages the mind. It winnows one's devotion to reason. Answers are a lot easier if you soften the rigors of one's standards, yes?
And that's what happens. Eventually, science gives way to pseudoscience—proof obtained through less meticulous testing and with reason that crosses over into unreasonable territory."

To me, the description of the "rationalist" faction makes them sound like the Hollywood concept of what a scientist is in a supernatural setting - namely, that they're basically priests in the Unified Church of Science, treating anything that doesn't fit into the world of electrons and radio waves as heretical nonsense that can't possibly be anything but a misunderstanding of the shining, Pyrean laws of Science which all things abide by.

Now, an actual rationalist would respond to vampires and werewolves and witches by reanalyzing their concept of what rules the universe runs on - which is where my assertion in the previous paragraph comes in: their founder is described as treating anything that moves outside Harvard bounds as being 'pseudoscience' and thus unacceptable, which is quite a bold claim when he's trying to study phenomena which generally seem to either be truly chaotic in their behavior (i.e., their existences represent defiance of the laws of reality, rather than obedience to laws not yet discovered), or involve forces and principles which the modern scientific community does not have the technological capacity (and perhaps not even the conceptual foundation) to measure in any effective manner.

In other words, any biologist in the World of Darkness who decides to try and expound on the physiological functions of the Uratha is talking out of his ass, because werewolves in WoD are spirit-and-flesh hybrids born of a wolf-god and the Moon, with about as much connection to modern scientific anything as the color octarine. He has neither the knowledge, nor the tools to acquire that knowledge, unless he starts dabbling in sorcery and mysticism, which the Null Mysteriis appear to poo-poo as claptrap and obfuscation.

Pseudoscience is honestly the Organization for the Rational Assessment of the Supernatural's best bet, but it's still not a very good one. Sure, Kirlian photography and orgone readings might actually yield benefits in certain cases, but the old guard are also fairly right about most pseudoscience lacking enough rigor and specificity to be viable.

Unfortunately, that just amplifies the real problem their compact faces, namely that their underlying mental paradigm is, well... it's rather apropos that their origins lie in the Victorian era, given the level of intellectual colonial spirit in their beliefs. The Null Mysteriis does not come across as wanting to understand the supernatural, they come across as one of the less-kind interpretations of the old Technocratic Union, hunting down reality deviants and then trying to forcibly crush them into a box made of technobabble and presumption*. They want to understand on their terms, not the universe's, and that shit doesn't hold water in a world of Astral Realms and invisible vampires.

Take their Stereotype section for an example of what I mean. Now, rereading Hunter: the Vigil in 2017, I've long since realized that the Stereotype sections were a hideous mistake and are just generally garbage, but dear Lord 2012 me didn't feel any better disposed toward the Null Mysteriis after reading theirs. It's catty, sarcastic, "coolest guy in the room" bullshit - a tour de force in douchery that radiates smugness, even by the odious standard of other Stereotype sections - the ones for Beast: the Primordial were marginally worse, but only in terms of provoking emotional outrage.

To be blunt, it's the Mysteriis sneeringly dismissing every other compact as either imaginary or delusional, with exactly the same air of entitled elitist condescension of a guy on the Internet jeering at the sci-fi/fantasy genres for being silly and unrealistic.

Here's a nice sample:
[About the Aegis Kai Doru] Let me get this straight. There's a conspiracy that's at least 2,000 years old, right? And it's got the head of John the Baptist and about a dozen other ancient holy relics, right, all hidden away and guarded by this hereditary sect? And sometimes they come out and use them to fight monsters? That's not a plausible scenario - that's The Da Vinci Code.
They then go on to patronize the Loyalists of Thule as being 'an object lesson in how an obsession with the supernatural can make one all too gullible' and crack wise about The Omen when mentioning the Lucifuge.

Again, the Stereotypes are a shitty WWism, but it still creates a certain impression. A very poor impression, that makes the Null Mysteriis sound like arrogant know-it-alls who wouldn't be caught dead doing anything as scandalous as actual serious consideration of the supernatural's existence when they could just smugly proclaim their omniscience from their academic mountaintop instead. They're not the Ghostbusters; they're Walter Peck, waving away the protagonists' "silly notions" and then making the situation worse as they refuse to adapt their methodology and ideology to a scenario where they just don't apply. As far as I can tell, the only way to make them playable is to strip out all of the legit supernatural components of the World of Darkness and have them fight The Strain or something - because otherwise, the entire party gets ripped to pieces when the "hemophages" don't fall unconscious when injected with tranquilizers, and instead decide they'd like to see what color the party members' viscera are tonight. As-written, they're just too genre blind and, well, Hollywood scientist-y.

I'm legitimately curious how your DM handled them to create such a positive impression, @ManusDomine.


* This is not helped by the fact that their opening fiction describes some Mysteriis members stalking a werewolf, cornering him in a bar he frequents, talking dismissively over him about lycanthropy until their veiled "we know what you aaaaarrrreee~" bullshit pushes him to get physical, then tranqing him. It ends with them "bringing a truck around" and getting ready to start testing some theories on the poor bastard once they've got him properly strapped down in their lab.
 
An interesting question without a canonical answer.

Just what *is* in the Old Man of the Abyss' Hut?

I mean, a simple answer would be that it's basically the Ocean Ouroboros, and considering literally nobody has entered and left, whatever it is is clearly rather final, but that still leaves quite a bit of room for the imagination.
 
An interesting question without a canonical answer.

Just what *is* in the Old Man of the Abyss' Hut?

I mean, a simple answer would be that it's basically the Ocean Ouroboros, and considering literally nobody has entered and left, whatever it is is clearly rather final, but that still leaves quite a bit of room for the imagination.

It's actually a portal to the old World of Darkness, where you can see universes that should not exist and how the world is better for their nonexistence.
 
An interesting question without a canonical answer.

Just what *is* in the Old Man of the Abyss' Hut?

I mean, a simple answer would be that it's basically the Ocean Ouroboros, and considering literally nobody has entered and left, whatever it is is clearly rather final, but that still leaves quite a bit of room for the imagination.


I went and opened up my copy of Astral Realms, and looked at the part regarding Aeonic citadels. They're described as "the homes of beings that might be ancient dragons, primal concepts, and gatekeepers of the supernal realms". They are also described as It the last, I think, that is the most important when talking about the Old Man's hut. As the aeons are gatekeepers of the supernal realms, the Old Man is the Gatekeeper of the Abyss, among the other things he might be.

What the old man is described as doing, often enough, is sitting outside the Hollow, tending his fire. That is, he is standing by the door to his hut, which has a threshold- a doorway, a gate. But the Hut is not the Abyss. That's the Ocean Oroboros, the end of everything. The Hut, I think, is like the other citadels and aeons- the Supernal Realm the represent, as they exist in and touch upon the fallen world.

Thus, to enter the Hut, to enter one of two things- and which it is, I think, could change depending upon circumstances. The first is that to enter the Hut is to enter some Realm of the abyss, likely an important one, or some antechamber where the two may meet; here, the symbolism that with the Old Man is the gatekeeper, and the Hut the gate to the Abyss he keeps. The other possibility is that the Hut is the "outpost" of the abyss in the fallen world- like the other Citadels, it is home to what is of the fallen world, but spiritually is of the abyss. The hut, I think, is home to those horrific immigrants.
 
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